Changing / modifying existing tracks

[Dozer]

I do quite a lot of DH track building and lately I've come across a few obstacles that aren't part of the track.
Some of the newer stuff I've built has been changed by people who are only just starting to get involved with the sport. For those that know what I do, I build tight trails, steep berms, lots of natural obstacles and I use the flow of the terrain. I throw in some drops, jumps, off camber etc. We are hosting the NSW State DH Series round 3 here in Coffs Harbour very soon and I've been given some help by some younger fellows who want to be involved. I arrived at the track yesty and here is a group of young blokes cleaning up the track by removing roots, rocks, mounds of natural dirt and cutting down huge trees (20mm in diameter). As soon as I saw it happening I spat the dummy and told them to stop. The reason I was pissed off was because these obstacles were there as part of the track. I don't make any trails like a highway and now that these sections have been changed, I'm thinking of using different lines. I can't stand the way people change things beause it doesn't suit their riding ability. I know I don't want to ride an easy track that isn't interesting but some people just have to destroy something that was very well thought out. I walk through really thick bush to pick the most natural line and then I cut the lines in and groom it.
I believe there is an unwritten law about changing a much loved track to suit a lesser skill level. Some people have no idea what they are doing when it comes to building a trail and they ruin it for others. Maintenace on a trail is a good thing (raking, grooming jumps, berms etc) but taking out the tricky stuff wrecks it for others. I don't consider myself an expert but the feedback I get from the stuff I build is pretty good so I try to do more of it.
It should be a respect thing when it comes to new people joining a sport by not unearthing other more experienced work on a trail. And as for cutting down trees: this is the biggest mistake you can make when building new or old stuff. You can get yourself and a lot of people in trouble for doing so.
Ride the trail as it is, if you don't like it then maybe talk to the bloke who did do it and see if you can make an alternate.

[Doggy]

I think you arent the only one that it p*sses off. Was riding this arvo on some great fun single tracks with a few log overs and such....nothing tricky, just fun. I came around a couple of corners to see some logs pulled off the track to make it a hell of a lot easier....even worse some little pr*cks building dirt jumps (no offence intended to dirt jumpers at all) had taken other logs and various bits to build up their jumps, in turn wrecking the single track.
I rode the rest of the track, found which bits had been moved/taken then went and took them back from the jumps and back in their original place.
It would seem it is too much hard work to hop off your bike if you havent got the skills/confidence and go over the obstacle that way instead of ripping it apart for your own selfish good:mad:

[rickazz]

the main thing i hate is little kids that come along and wreck a big double and make it either into a table top or make small so they can do it. that really annoys me have you had this trouble with little kids making things smaller or easier for there own benefit.

[sammydog]

the main thing i hate is little kids that come along and wreck a big double and make it either into a table top or make small so they can do it. that really annoys me have you had this trouble with little kids making things smaller or easier for there own benefit.

I think though that this comes down to good trail design. Design it well and it can be interesting and challenging for all people.

Granted there will always be an element who modify, but a bit of thought designing the trail in the first place can alleviate this.

Back to DHDozers post,

Yep, cutting trees down for any reason is not on. shame you have to go through this so close to the state round.

[dirt_hurts]

Same thing's happened at my local single track/mini DH run. It's a shire sanctioned MTB track, yet every log rollover you have to stop to make sure the logs are still on the otherside. My mate almost was seriously injured the second time we were out there after coming down the hill to find that a large log had been placed along the track to make a jump of about 40cm.

If it's your own track then by all means, yet if you didn't build it, or even worse if it's a community thing, don't go changing it, cause it'll be closed down for everyone in the end.

[|Matt|]

The youngins who change tracks need to understand that if they get caught fiddling with the track, their testicles will become the property of the trail owner.

The amount of time our trail (mostly built by Woffa and Wake Jake though..) has been farked with, its just not funny.
It ended up getting knocked down which we weren't happy about.

But don't rip out trees, that just attracts more attention to see a random tree laying there, and then people get concerned and call councils and whatnot

[skwiz05]

I think a good designer of trails should remember to put in the 'b' lines for those that are intimidated by Logs etc, so that they are then not tempted to destroy others work.

[toodles]

...cutting down huge trees (20mm in diameter)

20mm? were they using a pocket knife?

Jokes Dozer love your work.


I think a good designer of trails should remember to put in the 'b' lines for those that are intimidated by Logs etc, so that they are then not tempted to destroy others work.

Well yes and no. Mainly no. I think where a reasonable person might have 2nd thoughts about hitting a jump, drop or chute then yes a B line is the sensible and fair thing to do. But riders need to come to their senses. If 95 out of a hundred riders are hitting something that you're intimidated by then you need to adjust your approach and practise a bit. I'm a huge advocate of tracks that suit the widest range of riders without silly literally "death-defying" obstacles. But toning our tracks down to the point of them becoming footpaths is just as bad as making them deathtraps. People will lose interest in racing.

B lines aren't always possible and building them fairly is tricky too. But if there's a real risk of a serious injury then they should be there.

Back to Dozer's prob - modifying trails you don't own or didn't build to suit your tastes and style is a capital crime. Seriously, you're very likely to wind up getting stabbed in the face. Unless you find a trail that's in a total state of disrepair (ie... hasn't been ridden for 12 months) then don't modify it. Repair collapsed sections if you want, but changing the track outright isn't on.

[johnny]

When you modify some one else's track you are not only doing so at your own risk but also giving up all of your claims to civil/human rights and due legal processes.

[olly1oo6]

I've had a few recent issues at my local trail too.
Last week I rode down the trail to check for puddles (spots where water catches/increases erosion) and found, within the first 10 metres that someone had cut down a tree to make a slight corner easier to lean into. Not happy. So far our trail has only required cutting down one (dead) tree to make room for a stunt. I am of the strong opinion that it is not right to cut down trees to make room for stunts unless it is really needed. one is enough.

Also, it now throws out some of the flow of the track, since now that section is marginally faster, i need to put a choke (obstacle which anticipates the trail slowing) somewhere near to balance it.

this type of stuff happens a lot on any trail. In my honest opinion, B-lines are a great way of preventing these issues. there are B-lines around every stunt on our track, and weve had relatively few issues with other riders changing the trail. (although, bear in mind this is not a heavily used track at all)

I think the unwritten law should remain that you DONT change ANY part of a trail without the full permission of the builders/land owners

[Dozer]

I've had a few recent issues at my local trail too.
Last week I rode down the trail to check for puddles (spots where water catches/increases erosion) and found, within the first 10 metres that someone had cut down a tree to make a slight corner easier to lean into. Not happy. So far our trail has only required cutting down one (dead) tree to make room for a stunt. I am of the strong opinion that it is not right to cut down trees to make room for stunts unless it is really needed. one is enough.

Also, it now throws out some of the flow of the track, since now that section is marginally faster, i need to put a choke (obstacle which anticipates the trail slowing) somewhere near to balance it.

this type of stuff happens a lot on any trail. In my honest opinion, B-lines are a great way of preventing these issues. there are B-lines around every stunt on our track, and weve had relatively few issues with other riders changing the trail. (although, bear in mind this is not a heavily used track at all)

I think the unwritten law should remain that you DONT change ANY part of a trail without the full permission of the builders/land owners

For sure, don't change something to suit yourself. Like I mentioned, we are hosting a race soon and we'll have all types of skills on display. I've needed to make the track rideable for all of those levels (for example, some local girls don't do some sections that are easy to some blokes most of the time) and keep the track entertaining for the other riders.
You did mention that sometimes maybe one tree can go. You should never cut any trees down even if they are dead because they are homes to animals, vines grow off them etc. Never cut a tree down, it is against the law.

[beginner_giantDH]

totally agree with you all, am currently building north shore which if it was removed would possibly result in a rider falling close to 10 feet to rocks. not som,ething i really want in my track. the iother issue i was wondering if any of u had experience with was how to get the local council's permission to go about building a legit trail on council land?? is there a right and wrong way to go about it like getting a few names and numbers of people willing to ride and asking local residence if they would have concern for the track being in place??? any idea's

[Dozer]

totally agree with you all, am currently building north shore which if it was removed would possibly result in a rider falling close to 10 feet to rocks. not som,ething i really want in my track. the iother issue i was wondering if any of u had experience with was how to get the local council's permission to go about building a legit trail on council land?? is there a right and wrong way to go about it like getting a few names and numbers of people willing to ride and asking local residence if they would have concern for the track being in place??? any idea's

You would most certainly need to know that the residents nearby are willing to have and hear people in the bush riding bikes, yelling, swearing and carrying on. The council will want to get a complete map of the area and ask you all sorts of questions about drainage, natural habitat effects, amount of clearing, amount of maintenace, how you intend to get there (roadways etc), people involved, road management and traffic plans, other forest users....the list is endless and from experience it is just a hassle. After you submit your proposal and it goes to a meeting you'll have a big fat NO after waiting 6 months. Or sometimes.....sometimes the council is happy to help out. Get all the info you can think of: good and bad, and see how you go. If you get a heap of armour clad young fellows going into the council depot I'm sure they'll laugh at you. Do it smart mate.

[nizai]

I experienced a bit of trail modification on a WA XC course just last weekend. Admitedly it wasnt on the main racecourse line which was fine, but what pissed me off was the way in which their mods were made. A: they were very unsafe and B: they had left all their rubbish behind (ie: bottles, burger wrappers), littering the course.

Respect for others work is one thing, respect for their surrounding environment in general is another.

N

[beginner_giantDH]

cheers dozer? so do u think its worth a go. i have spoken to some of the residence and they said they were happy with it. i mean i dont wanna go in and get an official no then let them know bout the track and have them pull it apart?

[clockworkedorange]

The problem we have is dirtbike riders ripping up all the slightly more open trails. i've seen them riding up what precious little NS that we have, obviously not over the obstacles, but around and up the track. they are tearing it to shreds. has anyone thought of anything to combat this trail destroying menace?

[johnny]

Baseball bats.

As a moto rider myself, I can never get over the stupidity and/or arrogance of some moto riders. Never mind me, just venting my frustration.....

[clockworkedorange]

yeah! those helmets though...

whats wrong with the moto specific tracks? they can tear that too shit all they like.

[arpit]

yeah! those helmets though...

whats wrong with the moto specific tracks? they can tear that too shit all they like.


Where exactly though? Few people would volunteer their backyards. You think we have it bad in regards to trail access? Noone wants moto riders. They are like bike riders, but with

-Loud engines
-unpleasant smells
-massively more erosion
-public perceptions of criminal gang activity.

[clockworkedorange]

oh - in the pine forests around orange they have built a few of they're own tracks - i just meant here specifically.

[beginner_giantDH]

rabbit traps! haha get some old rusty ones and set them on the tracks. just be sure not to ride it for a few weeks, put up lots of signs telling everyone there there. and if they are arrogant enough not to reed the signs then SNAP there goes there tire! of course i do not mean any of this so dont do it. haha just put some tight double on the track that would be to hard for a moto rider to take!

[clockworkedorange]

whats would be the consensus in this situation - there are some nice tracks where i ride with lots of room either side of the track, is adding things either side of the original track an ok thing to do? it doesnt change the original, just offers some new alternative lines to change things up a bit.

[Mattydv]

i know it may be a bit more work though if it saves some good track thought of building a B-line?

[clockworkedorange]

yeah, well not really, but in the places we are addding the original track would be the B line, and the B line now we're not building over... so i guess it gives more options. or a c line.

[Habiby]

on the topic of modifying tracks, me and brice were at clear a while ago.
These guys rocked up and they said hi, and told us there were going to cut out all the roots on a corner up top to make it smoother and faster with an axe. This was stupid as if you went any faster on the corner you would be thrown off a cliff.

stupid stupid people, lucky brice was there to stop them;)

[norco_maniac]

yeah, theres nothin you can do about it, it happens all the time, even with dj's, people wreck them so they can ride them. try and keep the tracks more secret!

[NICK ATKINS]

we found some noobs on our trail and they said that the rock garden was too rocky and they couldn't get over it. luckily we were there so they didn't change it.

[Sam.]

Check dates nick, or is it your brother:rolleyes:

[matt.l]

;1022069']Check dates nick, or is it your brother:rolleyes:


This is proberly a good thread to dig up so all of the people that have had thier trails stuffed around with can express thier anger here:)

I dont mind having a good winge to someone on the computer as they cant jump through your screen and smack you one in the face.

It is so anoying going to your trails and find out that they have been stuffed around with. our little jumps and berm in the backyard thread was screwed up because loosers on thier motos thought they would hold together if they did burnouts on them. They were proberly trying to make them smaller so they could roll over them:p

[Dozer]

Our little jumps and berm in the backyard thread was screwed up because loosers on thier motos thought they would hold together if they did burnouts on them. They were proberly trying to make them smaller so they could roll over them:p

Maybe you should apply some of their tricks on their head.
A lot of moto riders make it very hard for non moto riders to have any positive thoughts about them. We are constantly repairing moto damage on our trails, they need a good kick in the face.:(

[nirvanafan]

theres one thing that anoys me and that is when you find a sweet trail and some idiot has torn it up with there motor bike i found some sweet small starter jumps that led into a dry creek was sweet fun then i didnt have a bike for a while then when i come back to ride it i fount that the jumps had like trenches dug into them from acceleration and the tops taken off man thats anoying :mad:

[notenufftoys]

I rode both, moto and mtb so i dont go wreckin mtb tracks cause i know its gunna piss me off a week later. some of my mates dont ride mtbs though and they see it as just another track, they cant get it through their heads why we dont like motos on our tracks. A fair few of moto riders ride mtbs too so i dont understand why their such idiots about wreckin the tracks. Its like they just go stupid when their riding.

[Matt H]

Maybe you should apply some of their tricks on their head.
A lot of moto riders make it very hard for non moto riders to have any positive thoughts about them. We are constantly repairing moto damage on our trails, they need a good kick in the face.:(

I feel your pain. There used to be a very nice little slalom track in townsville. It's still there but the damage caused by some arsehole moto riders caused a downward spiral of track maintenance and eventually a lack of interest altogether.

An amusing story: There was this kid at the store I work at doing work experience a few weeks back. He was telling me about his moto so I asked him where he rode it. He tells me he used to ride this "cool double track with berms and shit" I say "you mean the slalom" he says "yeah thats it?" I say "fuckwit" shake my head and walk away...
You would not believe how angry I was.

[NS_Suburban]

I feel the pain. I'm building my first trail right now, and for the record it's an old path through the scrub that obviously hasn't been used in nearly three years. Stumbled on it by accident about a week ago and digging commenced on friday. I kept the start of the trail overgrown and unkempt so that anybody passing through won't notice it. Motorbikes ride within a stone's throw and people probably see me in the vicinity with my shovel and bucket. Everytime I head out I'm worried that some little kid is gonna bust up the unfinished jumps or the moto's will spot it and try blasting through.

[jamis7]

how long do you need to have known the trail before you can start making extra bits and make it a better trail?

[Dozer]

how long do you need to have known the trail before you can start making extra bits and make it a better trail?

It isn't so much a time thing. It is more so the fact that you need to know who built it, who maintains its it and who owns the show. If you ride a trail fairly often and you have some ideas that may better the trail, talk to the other people who have a say in what happens and go from there.
Never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever modify a trail to suit yourself. It is an absolute crime and you will get hammered for it. Do it the right way and you'll ride until the cows come home every weekend.;)
Remember, always talk with the people who are involved.

[jamis7]

cool ok thanks for the advice;)