2007 Series suggestions

[wsmtbdhvp]

Suggestions?
DH 4 rounds and Championship
XC 4 rounds and Championship
4X 4 rounds and Championship
Each region to hold a round
Possible regions
DH Southern Thredbo, Canberra, SCUM
DH Sydney WSMTB, Lithgow, Wollongong
DH Central Hunter, Ourimbah
DH Northern Nundle, Coff Harbour, Kempsey

XC Southern, Thredbo, Canberra, Ulladulla, Scum?
XC Tablelands, Wollongong, Southern Tablelands, Central Tablelands
XC Central Ourimbah, Hunter
XC Sydney, WSMTB, SORC, Manly
XC Northern Coffs Harbour, Port Macquarie, Kempsey?

4X Southern, Thredbo, Canberra
4X Tablelands, Central Tablelands?
4X Sydney, WSMTB
4X Central, Hunter Central Coast?
4X Northern Armidale

[Squidly Didly]

Suggestions?
DH 4 rounds and Championship
Each region to hold a round
Possible regions
DH Southern Thredbo, Canberra, SCUM
DH Sydney WSMTB, Lithgow, Wollongong
DH Central Hunter, Ourimbah
DH Northern Nundle, Coff Harbour, Kempsey
#1 Southern - Canberra. Already at Thredbo National round & Interschools
#2 Sydney - Wollongong. Already at Lithgow National round
#3 Central - Meh! Both venues rock. One has an awesome track, the other has excellent organisation and prizes
#4 Northern - Nundle. Racing hasn't been there in years, and it's a wicked track
Championships - Coffs Harbour. What a track! What an atmosphere! Raining or sunshine, this was the sickest venue I've been too.

That's my thoughts anyway :)

[Daver]

DH 1-4:

Southern: Canberra. We already have nationals (and interschools) at thredbo, not to mention the lack of support that Thredbo state rounds get (in terms of marshalling and first aid). The South Coast would be interesting (where would the track be?) but it's hard to go past Canberra, especially once the its been setup for the Champs in January.
Sydney: Woolongong. Again, Lithgow has a national round, and it always gets used for State races- It's not a bad track (in fact, its my favourite) but it'd be nice to ride a "new" track.
Central: Hunter. Ourimbah is tired, and despite the awesome transport, organisation and prizes, the track is pretty old and its raced every year. The success and popularity of the Awaba rounds in 04 and 05 should be enough to warrant sropping Ourimbah, even if the shuttle turnaround is longer. Maybe a new track (a whole new one, not a rebuilt old one or a new line here and there) would make it a tougher choice, but even then it'd be good to change.
Northern: Nundle. Run it with an Armidale 4x round and it would make a great race weekend. The old track at Nundle was amazing (according to everyone who raced there).
Champs: Coffs. Coffs made the best state round so far and it would be a shame to see it go to waste.

MTNx is harder, obviously with less tracks to choose from.

Southern: Canberra. A Jacobs track would be awesome to race on, especially if its got some decent organisation and support.
Tablelands: Goulburn?. Close to both Sydney and Canberra (where the majority of guys are coming from) and the track is prett damn good too.
Sydney: Ebenezer. Purely on speculation here, but it would be hard to make it as bad as Homebush.
Northern:Armidale. Another Jacobs track that rarely gets used, plus if we're out racing at Nundle its not very far to hit up the Armidale 4x too. Obviously time would be an issue (a long weekend would help) but if we're up that way its a good opportunity to race that track.
Champs:Hunter/Black Hill. The best track in NSW at the moment.

[Incontinent]

Suggestions?
DH 4 rounds and Championship
XC 4 rounds and Championship
4X 4 rounds and Championship
Each region to hold a round
Possible regions
DH Southern Thredbo, Canberra, SCUM
DH Sydney WSMTB, Lithgow, Wollongong
DH Central Hunter, Ourimbah
DH Northern Nundle, Coffs Harbour, Kempsey

XC Southern, Thredbo, Canberra, Ulladulla, Scum?
XC Tablelands, Wollongong, Southern Tablelands, Central Tablelands
XC Sydney, WSMTB, SORC, Manly
XC Northern Coffs Harbour, Port Macquarie, Kempsey?

4X Southern, Thredbo, Canberra
4X Tablelands, Central Tablelands?
4X Sydney, WSMTB
4X Central, Hunter Central Coast?
4X Northern Armidale

DH round-1 Canberra, because Thredbo has national round, interschools etc,etc. Scum site is a great track but crap for transport and not popular with the finish so far away from the main area.

DH round-2 Lithgow is my choice here, although it also has a national round, Wollongong dosen't have a DH track so is out. Unless wsmtbdhvp has something "up his sleeve" best they have is Pacific Park.
Pacific Park has good transport turn around and a great area down the bottom. How are things going with sorting the track? WSMTB haven't had a state race for a while because of lack of a decent venue so it would be good for them to have one in 2007.

DH round-3 Hunter of course, if they have their new track up and going.
Sorry Al and Wayno but Hunter tracks are better. Ourimbah is a good venue but there is something to say for being able to see the riders finish near the main area.

DH round-4 Nundle, never been there and don't know much about this site but everyone speaks highly of this venue and track.

DH Champs can/could go to any of the venues that missed out on a series round. should look seriously at which site will offer the best overall racing.

XC round-1 Ulladulla is SCUM is it not? In any case South Coast offers something/somewhere different for the riders and should be considered.

XC round-2 Southern Tablelands, this will most likely be the yet to be completed Wingello State Forest track. This venue may get a run as one of the 8 or 12 hour events next year.
Central Tablelands, fuck Flynny he gets heaps of races.
Wollongong, race at revised Appin track seemed to go off ok and WMBC put in a huge effort to stage their 2006 race. There is more work to do to further improve this track and WMBC would be keen to hold another race in 2007. (gotta add that I am a member of this club)

XC round-3 SORCC put in another huge effort to create a brand new track for 2006. Everyone I spoke to that rode this track really liked it, only comment was that it is quite a short lap. SORCC are looking at increase the lap distance for next year. WSMTB, no state series round this year so could be first choice for 2007.

XC round-4 Port Macquarie were up for a round in 2006. Bit of a stuff up with the proposed dates for series round clashed with their existing calendar so they opted out for this year. I personally spoke with club pres afterwards and offered 2007 series race. Port Maquarrie will be keen to stage a race in 2007.
Need to sort dates out with them early as they are a very active club from what I have heard.

XC champs - same as for the DH, any of the venues that didn't get a series round.

4X - who cares !!!

[sammydog]

The new HMBA venue is getting closer. Same length track, 5-10 minute shuttle.

Will definitely be ready for next season for DH and hopefully the XC circuit will be sorted to be hosted from the same venue and starting area.

My Call for the races,

DH
Canberra
Wollongong/Lithgow either would be fine
Hunter
Nundle
Coffs
Don't really care which takes the champs.

XC
HMBA are definietly throwing our hands up for that again, any reason we aren't included in the possibilities?? Other than that, each of those regions is more than capable of throwing together a more than decent track.

[Incontinent]

Hunter for XC champs maybe???

Get in early Sammy.

Personaly feel that clubs which didn't get a run in 2006 should get first look at 2007 events, provided they have a suitable venue and have the ability and willing/helpful members in order to stage the race.

[sammydog]

We will take the XC champs if on offer. DH and 4X rounds as well.

[Dozer]

#1 Southern - Canberra. Already at Thredbo National round & Interschools
#2 Sydney - Wollongong. Already at Lithgow National round
#3 Central - Meh! Both venues rock. One has an awesome track, the other has excellent organisation and prizes
#4 Northern - Nundle. Racing hasn't been there in years, and it's a wicked track
Championships - Coffs Harbour. What a track! What an atmosphere! Raining or sunshine, this was the sickest venue I've been too.

That's my thoughts anyway :)

That is exactly what I would like to see as the calendar. Obviously I am a tad biased with the Coffs Harbour event but if the series made a stop at each of the events that Squid has listed, I reckon it would keep the numbers at the spot where you need them and it is a great chance for everyone in NSW to get to at least one event. I know that I would make a massive attempt to travel to each event listed here. I wouldn't go to Thredbo for a state round because it too far, a national event at Thredbo would be plenty.
With the northern round at Nundle and the State Champs at Coffs, we would get plenty of good support from our QLD friends which love travelling over the border to race a good event.
It makes sense to me to include the events that are:
1) A good track
2) A good town with plenty of places to stay and a place with a good atmosphere (example: a town with good night life).
3) A place that people want to travel to. You couldn't expect people to want to drive up to 8 hours to an event that doesn't have too much to offer.
There is plenty of good events on the calendar to make a series that will satisfy everyone. Canberra is a must, Wollongong is a great spot, Nundle would see heaps of new racer's and spectators, Ourimbah ...is Ourimbah, and Coffs Harbour has the overall appeal that would attract people to the event (by the way...there is some interesting things happening at Coffs as I speak :) ).
I reckon we're set for a nice year of racing by the way it sounds.

[toodles]

Coffs for the championships, for sure.

[fallboy]

Championship in coffs would be rad. I would defiently travel for it

[scblack]

Dozer may not like this thought, but I reckon Coffs would be better to have a State round, not the Championships. But it definitely deserves a round - no doubt.

It is a lot of travel to get up there for MOST people who ride DH (coming from Sydney/Hunter/Wollongong/Cangerra). I have no problem with costs - I am lucky to be able to afford whatever easily, but for me TIME is a very big issue, seeing as I have a baby girl at home. If I could not manage the time to get up there, I would be more amenable to missing a round than the Champs.

I'd be happy with, rounds in any order:
1. Nundle - new track for many people.
2. Sydney - Pacific Park can handle it.
3. Coffs.
4. Canberra.

Championships. Central - I'd have to go with Hunter here - Ourimbah track has been around a while now, raced several State & National rounds. Hunter is closest to the most people, I think that important for Champs.


Why are people bringing up Wollongong? There's no legally raceable track.:confused:

[Quintin]

coff it up for the champs

[thecat]

Central Tablelands, fuck Flynny he gets heaps of races.


True, I get heaps of races but not much fucking....
I was actually thinking it would be nice to have a break next year and take some time to ride and build more trails :D

While I think rider input is valuable I think NSWMTBA and the potential hosts need to be the ones working out when and where the series goes.

[scblack]

While I think rider input is valuable I think NSWMTBA and the potential hosts need to be the ones working out when and where the series goes.
You guys who run the clubs have to be the main factor determining what happens and when because without you, NOTHING happens. Can't be argued.

But please do take rider input into account, as without rider satisfaction, numbers will fall.

Keep it up Flynny.:cool:

[thecat]

Fully agree SCBLACK, but it's pointless for the riders to all vote that Venue B should host the champs before it's determined whether Vanue B are able to.

If it turns out that Venue B can't it then looks like we were ignoring rider input and thus riders get peed off.

[sammydog]

Fully agree SCBLACK, but it's pointless for the riders to all vote that Venue B should host the champs before it's determined whether Vanue B are able to.

If it turns out that Venue B can't it then looks like we were ignoring rider input and thus riders get peed off.

That was exactly my point and reason for posting in the NSWMTB forum. We need to work out who wants to and can host an event before going too far down the line of chasing public opinion.

[Dozer]

A little bit off topic here but I think it it okay to share my thoughts.
With the state series and champs all running inside NSW and ACT, I believe there should be a few things done by the governing body to have a bit more control over things.
For example, I'd like to see the same group of people helping out with rego etc at every event on the state calendar.
I think there should also be a constant timing company who travels to each event so people are used to when and how they can find results.
I'd also like to see the same trailers and (if it can be managed) the same vehicles towing the shuttle trailers at the event.
This would be a major plus in the favour of the organisers and the entrants because the organisers would have at least one or two things taken care of and the riders would know straight away what to expect from an event.
I think a governing body which controls these things would be a major plus for all involved. It would lessen the preparing and the unknown factors that organisers have to deal with. The less work the organisers have to do with some things means the more work they can do on preparing the other stuff that needs attention.
Imagine organising a race without having to worry about the above mentioned......:D

[Balfa_Oli]

i want the races that Squidly said.
Coffs has to be the championships it's the maddest track sooo much fun.
Can't wait to go back there.

[Incontinent]

A little bit off topic here but I think it it okay to share my thoughts.
With the state series and champs all running inside NSW and ACT, I believe there should be a few things done by the governing body to have a bit more control over things.

For example, I'd like to see the same group of people helping out with rego etc at every event on the state calendar.

This same group of people helping out at rego etc is basically the same group that helps out at every event.
THEY ARE CALLED HUMPHREYS AND GRUNDY.
I think that race organisers should get their shit together and give these people a break. You put your hand up for a race you are expected to run the whole of the event. If your club can't find sufficient members to staff an event you should not nominate. You (club) are expected to be able to handle every aspect of the event, "not just get the track ready". This is exactly the case at national level. If for some reason your club cannot muster enough members to help out at a race weekend then it is upon you to organise outside help. These people are often more than happy to help out but for fuck sake I'm sure that they would like to go to a race weekend and be able to see their boys ride for a change.

I think there should also be a constant timing company who travels to each event so people are used to when and how they can find results.

Timing.
Currently there are only two timing companies thet do the state races.
Castec and Two Wheel Promotions. 2WP are based in Queensland and obviously handy for the northen races. Castec are based in sydney and are used for all the southern races, (typically). We use both, I have worked with both crews and they similar in many ways. A condition of staging a state event is that there is proffessional timing at the race (DH). This mandate was implimented this year (2006) and by all accounts has been a vast improvment on past years.

I'd also like to see the same trailers and (if it can be managed) the same vehicles towing the shuttle trailers at the event.

For most of the events you will find that the same trailers are used.
ala, Western Sydney, Central Coast, Hunter, CORC. Not always towed by the same vehicles but more often than not by the local minibus mob.

This would be a major plus in the favour of the organisers and the entrants because the organisers would have at least one or two things taken care of and the riders would know straight away what to expect from an event.
I think a governing body which controls these things would be a major plus for all involved. It would lessen the preparing and the unknown factors that organisers have to deal with.

You should know or at least some idea of what you need to deal with.

The less work the organisers have to do with some things means the more work they can do on preparing the other stuff that needs attention.

Part of your nomination is making sure that you (your club) is able to meet all the requirements necessary to run the event. This includes rego, first aid, transport, food etc. Not just the track and the after party. Again if you are not prepared to, or, unable to fullfil all of these committments you should not nominate.

Imagine organising a race without having to worry about the above mentioned......:D
Imagine going to the local brothel, getting a full serrvice and not having to pay for it !
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Having said all this, your efforts for the Coffs Harbour race were appreciated, however you will not be considered for another state series race or champs unless you can impliment al these things within your own club. I suggest that you make the trip down to the champs at Ourimbah in a couple of months time. There you will see how it is done.
CCOMTB will be more than happy to show you all there is in staging a successful event.

[Dozer]

Incontinent, not at any stage did I suggest that anything wasn't done properly. I have thanked Mr Grundy and Mr Humphries on numerous occassions for not only helping us out in Coffs but there input for MTB. The experience I learned when we / I staged the recent event was valueable, very much so. I now know what and how to do things right to the point where it will be satisfactory for all involved. My post was supposed to be a good thing, not something that was given a spray. I have been given heaps of feedback from people about the race we hosted. It was good, it was bad feedback but I took it all into consideration and my sole purpose of doing what I do is to make people smile.

[sammydog]

Glad you said all that chris, I've been sitting on my hands all day trying not to start some form of shit fight with this.

The State Body should set the standards, but the onus to comply with these standards, find volunteers and run/organise the event must lie with the club hosting the event.

[Incontinent]

Good to see that you learnt from the experience of what is involved in staging a state level race. Why then put up a post asking that all the "non fun stuff" should be done by others? Bottom line is that if you want to hold a race you have to cover all aspects of the race. The things you have learnt from this last race have given you a much clearer understanding of what is involved. Don't go trying to palm it off onto others that always seem to get stuck with it. It's your event, it's your show, it's your responsibility.

[Dozer]

Good to see that you learnt from the experience of what is involved in staging a state level race. Why then put up a post asking that all the "non fun stuff" should be done by others? Bottom line is that if you want to hold a race you have to cover all aspects of the race. The things you have learnt from this last race have given you a much clearer understanding of what is involved. Don't go trying to palm it off onto others that always seem to get stuck with it. It's your event, it's your show, it's your responsibility.

I didn't ask for the non fun stuff to be done elsewhere. This thread is about suggestions so I suggested. I'm not trying to step on peoples' tow's here. I have never organised any race in my life and I reckon things went okay at Coffs (with the help from the people that need to help).
I completely understand that the club should arrange everything and that is more than fair. The part that really pisses me off is when people tell me that we are hosting a state race and no one (locals) do anything about it. I had this whole event placed in front of me and did my best with what I knew. I had help from people that know what they are doing and I had a massive kick in the arse when I found out our local club hates DH. They didn't provide any volunteers after they promised so much, they pocketed all of the profits and ran off with it. Our club didn't do anything for our event except let us use their racing permissions (insurance, affiliations etc).
I guess what I'm trying to say is this: Our event was run and organised by a handful of local battlers who want to see our sport grow. My suggestion of getting further assistance from a higher source was primarily to relieve a bit of the workload off the smaller mob's who thought they were doing the right thing.
I haven't intended to piss anyone off or have a go at anyone. Take it as you will. I've done my best with the resources I had and I know how to fix things for next time (if it happens).

[Incontinent]

Glad you said all that chris, I've been sitting on my hands all day trying not to start some form of shit fight with this.

The State Body should set the standards, but the onus to comply with these standards, find volunteers and run/organise the event must lie with the club hosting the event.

Gee thanks for that Sammydog, Thought you'd leave for the cranky old bastard hey?

[Incontinent]

I didn't ask for the non fun stuff to be done elsewhere.
Sorry but that is exactly the way I read it. (again)
This thread is about suggestions so I suggested. I'm not trying to step on peoples' tow's here.
I don't see it as stepping on anyones toes. I respect your opinions, I may not necessarily agree with them but I do respect them. Same goes for my comments, I'm sure there are quite a few who don't agree with my opinions.
I have never organised any race in my life and I reckon things went okay at Coffs (with the help from the people that need to help).
Actually it is widely recognised that you did pretty damn good given the amount of help you got from "your club"
I completely understand that the club should arrange everything and that is more than fair. The part that really pisses me off is when people tell me that we are hosting a state race and no one (locals) do anything about it. I had this whole event placed in front of me and did my best with what I knew. I had help from people that know what they are doing and I had a massive kick in the arse when I found out our local club hates DH. They didn't provide any volunteers after they promised so much, they pocketed all of the profits and ran off with it. Our club didn't do anything for our event except let us use their racing permissions (insurance, affiliations etc).
Guess you MTB guys aren't good enough for this club. Suggest you take your business elsewhere.
I guess what I'm trying to say is this: Our event was run and organised by a handful of local battlers who want to see our sport grow.
You may not believe this but almost all clubs operate this way. It is always the same small core group of people from each club (yes even the big ones)
My suggestion of getting further assistance from a higher source was primarily to relieve a bit of the workload off the smaller mob's who thought they were doing the right thing.
Now you know exactly what is involved you will be better prepared for next time.
I haven't intended to piss anyone off or have a go at anyone. Take it as you will. I've done my best with the resources I had and I know how to fix things for next time (if it happens).
If you can't find local help for your next event, put out the call for outside assistance early, if possible even before you nominate, you will always find people in this sport willing to lend a hand. This may sound a little contradictory to my earlier statements but it's not. You are still responsible for staging the event, it doesn't really matter who you get to help out. the idea of having a crew that goes from race to race to do all the admin stuff doesn't sit well with me, or for that matter, a few others.

[sammydog]

Gee thanks for that Sammydog, Thought you'd leave for the cranky old bastard hey?

No, I just think people probably get sick of me being the cranky bastard who complains all the time.

[saundo]

We should have the champs in canberra becasue by then i think the glen jacobs track will be finshed then we could have both a 4x and a dh and maybe even a xc event all at the same place on a mad bunch of tracks in a sik town

[wsmtbdhvp]

Whew just logged on, glad thats over, just a little suggestion, I also put this on the private forum so lets not wash all our linen in public, please.
PS had a talk with dozer today and we may have sorted a few problems.

[sammydog]

I completely understand that the club should arrange everything and that is more than fair. The part that really pisses me off is when people tell me that we are hosting a state race and no one (locals) do anything about it.

Hate to break it to you, but unfortunately I think you will be hard pressed to find a club where more than a small crew substantially commit to running and organising races (or the club for that matter).

[thecat]

I was going to put a motion to our members making the Humpheries, Grundys a Prohms honoury club and committe members... But I wasn't sure they'd appreciate it :D

I think the riders know who does all the work.

[Dazed&Confuzed]

Thank God nobody voted for a state round at Ourimbah next year. Wayno & Allan are going to have a break and ride a few rounds. Organising a club day lately is as much work as a state series race from a couple of years ago and we are having 8 of them this year (4 to go). :p

[demo man]

We should have the champs in canberra becasue by then i think the glen jacobs track will be finshed then we could have both a 4x and a dh and maybe even a xc event all at the same place on a mad bunch of tracks in a sik town


we could host the 4X, DH and XC champs quite happily in one place, Mt. Stromlo, on a bunch of very, very good trails.
I just doubt the NSW people want an ACT club and venue to hold the NSW championships...

as for the rest, while Coffs could handle the DH okay, i'd like to see the XC, 4X and DH in one place. not sure if that's possible though.

[sammydog]

All in the one place should be a possibility with HMBA next year, fingers crossed.

But on the one weekend?? not sure about that.

[demo man]

But on the one weekend?? not sure about that.


that's kind of half the point though...let the XCers and DHers check out the 4X, the 4Xers and XCers check out the DH, and the DHers and 4Xers watch the XCers (even if it's only to stand around and torment them through the rock garden).

[sammydog]

No, I understand the reasons for putting them on the one weekend.

Finding the resources (two sets of timing etc) for a state round may be a bit different seeing as XC riders would most likely want the ability to practice on the saturday and race on sunday with the DH.

Not sure how many clubs could cover that for a state round. Would be awesome though if it were to happen.

[wsmtbdhvp]

CORC used to hold the ACT Championships in conjunction with the state round and the riders regardless of NSW or ACT took the trophy or medal. I have always been of the oponion that if you took the trouble to ride the series then you could have the medal whether Qld, Vic NSW or ACT. Championships slightly different, usually first get the prize, but first ACT or NSW get the medal.

The committee will decide if CORC would like to bid for the championships and the dates could be changed to accomidate.

[demo man]

Finding the resources (two sets of timing etc) for a state round may be a bit different seeing as XC riders would most likely want the ability to practice on the saturday and race on sunday with the DH.

you can hire CORC's XC/24hr timing gear (and Russ as an opperator). not sure what the figures are, but i know the timing gear is top notch.

[Incontinent]

[quote=demo man]we could host the 4X, DH and XC champs quite happily in one place, Mt. Stromlo, on a bunch of very, very good trails.
I just doubt the NSW people want an ACT club and venue to hold the NSW championships...

Sam, CORC has been party to the joint NSW/ACT state series for a few years. Who in their right mind would complain about you holding champs for DH/XC/MTNX. Actually think it would be a great idea, only a year too late at state level. Would have been good to stage state champs at Stromlo as a test run to sort out any bugs prior to the 2007 national champs hosted by CORC. I still like to see the races being shared between all available venues and have the same site getting races year in year out.


you can hire CORC's XC/24hr timing gear (and Russ as an opperator). not sure what the figures are, but i know the timing gear is top notch.

Russ is CHEAP and worth every cent.
Russ did the timing for WMBC state XC round, our pres was soo impressed we have now purchased a copy (licence) of Russ's program. This program does the lot, really helps to have someone driving it that knows what they doing. Thanks again Russ.

[thecat]

, our pres was soo impressed we have now purchased a copy (licence) of Russ's program. This program does the lot, really helps to have someone driving it that knows what they doing. Thanks again Russ.

If only Russ would write a patch to handle DH timing :D

I've been using Russ's stuff too. The big advantge (Other than live times for XC) is the ease of rego. For Dh I've been rego'ing in DURT and then exporting to an excel format for actual timing. AFAIK MTBA is getting a copy for all the National host this year.

[scblack]

We should have the champs in canberra becasue by then i think the glen jacobs track will be finshed then we could have both a 4x and a dh and maybe even a xc event all at the same place on a mad bunch of tracks in a sik town
Sorry but you lost all credibility there. hahahahahahahaha:D

[Peterasj]

For the state series of DH the following gets my vote:

Threadbo, Lithgow, Grafton and Ourimbah for the state rounds and possibly the new Canberra track or any of the others for the state champs. If we go back to Canberra next year, please not in July, either Rnd 2 or last round so it will at least be above zero for registration. Coffs was so good this year. No its not all weather, but the track was so awesome on Sunday, I'll drive from Wollongong again next year and take the risk. Long weekend for Coffs is a winner. :D

[Old Shagger]

If only Russ would write a patch to handle DH timing :D

I've been using Russ's stuff too. The big advantge (Other than live times for XC) is the ease of rego. For Dh I've been rego'ing in DURT and then exporting to an excel format for actual timing. AFAIK MTBA is getting a copy for all the National host this year.
A concerted effort should be made to track down Rob Strong..last i knew Qld somewhere...as his DH program was amazingly good...
Rob used to race XC and help out doing the timing on our DH races in the State Seried a few years back...
Does anybody know of his whereabouts...

Neil

[thecat]

A concerted effort should be made to track down Rob Strong..last i knew Qld somewhere...as his DH program was amazingly good...
Rob used to race XC and help out doing the timing on our DH races in the State Seried a few years back...
Does anybody know of his whereabouts...

Neil

He was still around but busy work load meant it was had to lock him into anything.

Castecs stuff is solid and getting better. They will also be developing XC programs for this years National series

[Old Shagger]

He was still around but busy work load meant it was had to lock him into anything.

Castecs stuff is solid and getting better. They will also be developing XC programs for this years National series

It would be a good thing to have a program that the NSW group owned, ran, each club could use and not have to pay lotsa$$$ to use, and my memory of Robs was it was a very user friendly system, saying that Casteck never has a problem either...all im getting at is Rob's had all the systems, if we could track him down and get a copy from him, the series and the clubs could get a big advantage from it...and the riders...

[alchemist]

I think we've got a copy of Rob's DH stuff, MWMTB are still using the XC stuff.
Doesn't Russ's system cater for TTs (or have available as an option) - what's the difference between a TT & DH?

[thecat]

I think we've got a copy of Rob's DH stuff, MWMTB are still using the XC stuff.
Doesn't Russ's system cater for TTs (or have available as an option) - what's the difference between a TT & DH?

It does but, AFAIA it can't handle fractions of a second. DH often comes don to that.

For XC Russ's system is the snizzle.

For DH you're better off hiring in someone like Castec. One less thing for the club to have to worry about.

[Incontinent]

It does but, AFAIA it can't handle fractions of a second. DH often comes don to that.

For XC Russ's system is the snizzle.

For DH you're better off hiring in someone like Castec. One less thing for the club to have to worry about.

It's not just all about the timing either.
Russ' software is "the guts" for rego, membership details, pointscore allocations etc, etc. for formats (XC/DH/MTNX)


If pro timing is to used at all state and national DH races we don't need Robs program. I don't really think that we need anything too sofisticated for club level events. The way CCOMTB do it is quite simple,
"count down starts on full and/or half minutes etc"
Do you think we are getting a little too picky wanting 100th sec timing at club level?
I think it's much more important to have "rock solid" comms top to bottom.
The only times I have experienced problems with start timing etc is when the comms fucks up, it's not so much a timing software problem.

[thecat]

It's not just all about the timing either.
Russ' software is "the guts" for rego, membership details, pointscore allocations etc, etc. for formats (XC/DH/MTNX)


And it's just got better. The new version has an export to castec button :D

[Le Matelot]

OK, a couple of things to bring up here, a bit long, but here goes...

MTBA will shortly be giving (yep - free) the FileMaker Pro database software plus the latest version of the DURT race software to all the clubs/organisations who will be staging the 06/07 national rounds plus the national championships. MTBA have also agreed to provide a cut-down set of data (due to privacy considerations) of the MTBA membership. This is used by the latest version of DURT to allow the user to register a rider simply by typing in their MTBA number, and the other info is loaded automatically. It will also validate their membership and warn you if it will have expired by race day. This was used at the NSW State DH at Mt Stromlo on 9 July and also at the NSW State XC Champs at Arcadia on 16 July.

As The Cat has said, the registration module of DURT will then export a data file for use by CASTECH in a format which has already been agreed with them. Its a one-click process. Copy the file onto a memory stick and hand it to CASTECH and that’s it. This was trialed at the NSW State DH at Mt Stromlo on 9 July and announced at the MTBA promoters forum on 15 July.

For organisers who use an online registration system, the ability is still in DURT to import data from your online system.

So, that provides consistency across the national series. It also makes it easier for producing series results, because the naming of riders across the series will be consistent.


In terms of using DURT for DH timing, yes a DH race is a time trial and you can use the time trial module for that right now but only if you're happy with results displayed to 1 second. I only display results in DURT to 1 second because the input method is manual and you need to consider human reaction times in calculating the error budget. I can display times to (ridiculous) decimals of a second but because of the manual input method they wouldn't mean anything in an accuracy sense.

The on-screen timing results display for DH in the DURT time trial module provides the usual most recent 15 riders' times, plus across the bottom are 3 extra waterfall displays - for the top 10 men, top 10 women and the top 10 places in the category of the rider who just crossed the line.

In terms of the displayed times for DH, there can be a big difference between the actual accuracy of a time and the displayed resolution of a time. And, how far do you want to go anyhow? For example, something like 1/1000 of a second? At the speed of a DH bike, 1/1000 of a second is about how long it takes the bike to travel the height of a knob on the tire.

Having said all that, I am working on a 1/100 second display time for the time trial module of DURT, and also working on an inexpensive means of triggering the timing. You can't have one without the other. Without some reliable and accurate means of triggering the system, anything to the right of the decimal point is meaningless. I am also re-working the option for totally manual input if you want to use DURT for rego and results for DH. This is what I did at the Nationals DH at Mt Buller in 2004, taking input from Buller's ski timing system.

DURT will automatically produce start lists for DH races if you want to count people off, and if you have a second laptop, it will also allow one to be set up at the top of the course as a programmed start timer, which automatically calls up riders and counts them down to their allocated start time, and beeps them off. These don't have to be connected and can be used to get around the communication problem between the top and the bottom of the course. This is pretty much Tour-de-France time trial rules, where if you miss your allocated start time, you are in trouble. There are several road cycling clubs in the UK who use this feature for thier time trials.

[thecat]

Love your work Russ.
We have gates, beams and stopwatches available. If you can work out how to get them to trigger the laptop that would be the bees knees.

[spewyogrady]

Possibly...Some sort of Uniformity for Age Grouping and Pricing at State Rounds.

XC Round 4 SORC. Entry Form stated no entries under the age of 12
XC Champs MWMTB,$25.. Under 13's with a reduced entry fee.
XC at Killingworth $35, no reduced price for Juniors. Apparently one parent of a regular Junior rider pulled the pin at the rego desk...

4X Goulburn, reduced price for Juniors
4X at Homebush, $30? $35? can't remember....
4X at Black Hill Tomorrow $50.00 or $40 pre entry which closed a week ago.

why the variation in pricing?

Now this may be petty but $50 seems a bit steep for one race...

Also which club is running the 4x at Black Hill Tomorrow? This may also be petty/nitpicking but I would rather be making out a pre-entry chq or Credit Card Authorisation form to a recognised MTB Club.

I realise that all these events are run by volunteers and that these events are far from an easy thing to manage...

What is the breakdown of entry fees? Does MTBA get a percentage? How much goes to the clubs? Is it just straight cost recovery?

thanks

[demo man]

Possibly...Some sort of Uniformity for Age Grouping and Pricing at State Rounds.

XC Round 4 SORC. Entry Form stated no entries under the age of 12
XC Champs MWMTB,$25.. Under 13's with a reduced entry fee.
XC at Killingworth $35, no reduced price for Juniors. Apparently one parent of a regular Junior rider pulled the pin at the rego desk...

4X Goulburn, reduced price for Juniors
4X at Homebush, $30? $35? can't remember....
4X at Black Hill Tomorrow $50.00 or $40 pre entry which closed a week ago.

why the variation in pricing?

Now this may be petty but $50 seems a bit steep for one race...

Also which club is running the 4x at Black Hill Tomorrow? This may also be petty/nitpicking but I would rather be making out a pre-entry chq or Credit Card Authorisation form to a recognised MTB Club.

I realise that all these events are run by volunteers and that these events are far from an easy thing to manage...

What is the breakdown of entry fees? Does MTBA get a percentage? How much goes to the clubs? Is it just straight cost recovery?

thanks


variations like those exist because each race is run by a different club - and there are no standards or agreements between the clubs and NSWMTB.

in terms of prices, you can't have a consistant cost, because it costs different clubs different amounts of money to run the races.


a break down of each riders entry fee is hard to do, because the way i do budgets at least is like this:

total costs = x
est. riders = y
entry = x divided by Y rounded up a little bit.

the costs for a 4X race are not too bad, you have toilets, prozes and first Aid. depending on the club's property you will also need a PA, at least one computer and fast printer (may need to rent), radios, start gate, heaters (if it's going to be cold), tents, tables, chairs etc.

There is very litle profit made from any MTB race (unless it's held at thredbo), as they are all run for the good of the sport really.

XC costs are similar.

DH gets much more expensive though, as you have trailers, busses, and professional timing as well.


MTBA gets very little, most of their funds come from day licenses and membership fees.

NSWMTB takes $2 per rider at all state races for series medals etc.

[thecat]

How much goes to the clubs? Is it just straight cost recovery?

thanks

Pretty much cost recovery. Clubs usually have to pay an access fee to the landmanager, this varies depending on the site. Then there's all the hire gear and toilets and power and PAs and.... Some venues are fortunite enoght to have a lot of this but others have to bring it all in.

Then there is First Aid. Some organiseations charge a flat fee others just ask for a donation.
So with so much varitant it's hard to set a standard for all venues.

MTBA gets nothing other than Licences and Day licence fees. The NSW branch imposes a small levie which is than used to purchase state medals and so forth.

If any thing is left over (doesn't happen often) it goes to the club. Considering they generally spend a fair bit on track maintanence through out the year this goes back into the community

[sammydog]

Possibly...Some sort of Uniformity for Age Grouping and Pricing at State Rounds.

XC Round 4 SORC. Entry Form stated no entries under the age of 12
XC Champs MWMTB,$25.. Under 13's with a reduced entry fee.
XC at Killingworth $35, no reduced price for Juniors. Apparently one parent of a regular Junior rider pulled the pin at the rego desk...

4X Goulburn, reduced price for Juniors
4X at Homebush, $30? $35? can't remember....
4X at Black Hill Tomorrow $50.00 or $40 pre entry which closed a week ago.

why the variation in pricing?

Now this may be petty but $50 seems a bit steep for one race...

Also which club is running the 4x at Black Hill Tomorrow? This may also be petty/nitpicking but I would rather be making out a pre-entry chq or Credit Card Authorisation form to a recognised MTB Club.

I realise that all these events are run by volunteers and that these events are far from an easy thing to manage...

What is the breakdown of entry fees? Does MTBA get a percentage? How much goes to the clubs? Is it just straight cost recovery?

thanks


HMBA are sanctioning the event at blackhill. I think with the amount of $$$ and effort that the guys have put into the black hill track, $40 for pre entry really isn't that much. I'd be surpirsed if they have come close to even paying off the earthworks and dirt that has been brought in. I don't think a $10 penalty for entering on the day is much of a cost either, pre entry to me is worth more than $10 when organising a race.

I wasn't aware of any parents at the killi XC pulling the pin at the rego desk, but I do know we should have charged extra to baby sit two of the junior riders that were there all day doing their best to mess things up.

Clubs make sweet F.A out of running the state races and from our perspective (HMBA) we charge what we need to to cover costs and still hand out decent cash prizes. Other than the working week series races, not much income comes into our club from running major events. SO I guess from your question, it is pretty much cost recovery with the rest pumped back into prizes.

That said, even though we don't get a lot $$$ wise out of races, we (and I think this would go for most clubs) will continue to put races on, because there is a huge amount of satisfaction that comes from putting on a good weekend of racing for the riders. Personally I enjoy putting the races on as much as I do racing them.

[spewyogrady]

Fair enough...

Huge respect to you guys for doing what you do. My kids get a lot of pleasure from racing their bikes and that is due to people like yourselves putting the effort in. We would have loved to be at Black Hill tomorrow but football and family events have bumped it. I would have smarted at the $100, but for the enjoyment it gives, it would have been worth it.

[sammydog]

I'm in the same situation, had every intention of racing tomorrow, but football (the roundball variety) has killed my asperations. I was only a contender for last place anyway, but its always a great day.

[saundo]

Is it posible that we can have two race runs for all riders next year or is there a specfic reason we dont i.e lack of time or something becasue two race runs for all riders would be heaps good.

[thecat]

With the numbers we've been getting there's bearly enough time to get 1 run in

[Incontinent]

Is it posible that we can have two race runs for all riders next year or is there a specfic reason we dont i.e lack of time or something becasue two race runs for all riders would be heaps good.


Would be great if we had 20hrs of daylight.
We are flat out getting through the current format.
State series is typically run through the winter months when daylight hours are precious.

I'm sure time keepers, marshals and starter would just love to spend an extra 2-3hrs or so on the hill.
Don't suggest starting race runs at 9.00 or 10.00am either, riders have to practice the track at least once on race day.

[saundo]

Yeh thats true its always to get a few pratcie runs on the morning of the race. i thought that might be the case for not getting 2 runs

[Plow King]

With the rule that some catagorys get 1 run and if they get in the top 10 they get another run... Shouldn't it be just 1 run? Or I think both times should be allowed not just the second run. Because if people give it there absolute all in the first run then they are going to be buggered by the second run.

also, having a timed run which isn't counted just makes it a timed practice. It's manifestly unfair that the better riders get an extra practice run, since It's the worse rider who need an extra practice run more. The two run system works well for club races, the idea being that they give a more accurate indication of one's ability than a single run, lest there be a crash. Surely, the same logic can be applied to the state rounds.

Cheers Chris

[Dazed&Confuzed]

Here's an idea for you about why we do not give all the riders 2 runs.
NSW State Championships 13th August 2006:
210 riders at 30 second intervals and 2 runs equals 210 minutes
10 minutes gap between first race run and second race run.
15 classes with a 3 minute gap between each class ( twice because there are 2 runs) equals 90 minutes.
210 + 10 + 90 = 310 minutes
310 divided by 60 = 5 hours and 10 minutes
Race start time 1:00 pm
Race finish time 6:10 pm
Sunset time on 13th August 5:30 pm
We'll put you class off last just so that you can enjoy a race run in the dark.
Or maybe you would like to volunteer to be a starter or finish time keeper and stand or sit around for 5 + hours straight without a break.

[Plow King]

Then why not just have 1 run? instead of a qualifying run? The top riders can just go at there won pace not too fast and qualify, whereas the slower riders have to pedal there arse off. So if they do indeed get into the final they are buggered...

[scblack]

Then why not just have 1 run? instead of a qualifying run? The top riders can just go at there won pace not too fast and qualify, whereas the slower riders have to pedal there arse off. So if they do indeed get into the final they are buggered...
So when are you going to put all these great ideas into practice, by helping run a race???

[Rik]

...whereas the slower riders have to pedal there arse off. So if they do indeed get into the final they are buggered...Well then the slower riders will have to train so they can be at the same level as the top riders. That's not rocket surgery is it? Seriously, have a look at what you're asking, and think about how damn absurd it sounds!

[Plow King]

It was just a suggestion, it says suggestions and feedback doesn't it?

I'm sorry it was just an idea.

[Butch]

looks like ill be spending a remainder of my time riding at oxford falls , unless more suggestions are given to make it fairer for all

[Plow King]

Ok, I'm going to start again as I think you missed what I said. I think it would be a good idea if both the qualifying time and race time were counted. and the best time out of the 2 was selected, not just the last race run.

This is for the top 10 riders that qualify.

JUST A SUGGESTION.

Thankyou Chris

[Daver]

Ok, I'm going to start again as I think you missed what I said. I think it would be a good idea if both the qualifying time and race time were counted. and the best time out of the 2 was selected, not just the last race run.

This is for the top 10 riders that qualify.

JUST A SUGGESTION.

Thankyou Chris

Thats stupid. People then have less pressure to do well, as they only need to have 1 decent run. At least with 2 you need to be consistent, and its more pressure to keep it upright and pinned.

[thecat]

Several things have been suggested regarding qualifying times.

I won't jump the gun by announcing anything before it is decided but it is one of the areas we are looking at.


Something we have done on a club level is adding the runs together for a final time but i don't think that is suitable for a big state race.

[Dazed&Confuzed]

The reason that some of the Elite and U19s get a second run is because the MTBA rules state that the races are to be run that way.

[Toxic]

Just to send things off on a different tangent, is there a chance that races NOT be scheduled on Mother's and Father's Days? And that goes for club races as well. It's too hard to come up with an adequate excuse to race. :mad:

[Road Rage Ryan]

Thats stupid. People then have less pressure to do well, as they only need to have 1 decent run.

I think it is a bit harsh saying that his suggestion is stupid. In fact I know several elites who are keen to see this style be introduced to smooth out the annoyances of getting flat tyres. I don't think that it is fair to criticise NorcoHavoc for having an opinion. I guess you could also argue that having two timed runs might provide quicker times, as the first run will be flat out be damned the consequence. Sort of like a double fault in tennis. Knowing that you have an ace up your sleeve might mean riding quicker than usual. Conversely if you have a poor first run then the pressure will infact be greater because your second run will have to be fully pinned knowing that other riders had already done so on their first.

[wsmtbdhvp]

The larger question starts to appear in downhill, a large number of riders and only a small amount of time to race. Possible ways of coping with this,
race Saturday for 1 group Sunday the other this has been used at State races before Dargle 2003.
Reduce numbers to a race, no day licences, have to have raced a club race.
Under 19 and Elite get only 1 run.
Less Practice Sunday racing Saturday Parctice?

[demo man]

I think the current system is the way it should be. It is the best way to create a strong atmosphere and excitment, plus it is a media freindly format.

Say a news crew come along for the Finals, but the winner crashes and doesn't finish his run? They have no footage of the winner riding, and probably won't run a story.

Plus, my favorite part of a well-run event is having a BIG crowd at the bottom of a track, being able to see a decent chunk of track and the clock, listening to the comentator as the hot seat occupant changes over and over again. the tension builds, and it can create a huge climax for the last few riders where the crowd is extatic.

Not to mention, Qual. runs allow the top riders to play mind games on each other, size each other up and see where they sit.

Having Quals and Finals is a big part of what makes large races 'events'.


As the sport gets more media attention i wouldn't be surprised is something has to be changed though, as news crews will need footage far earlier than races currently finish for the sunday night sports section.


2 runs for everybody is only viable if Saturday also hosts racing - but then, i think most riders would prefer to get 5 runs on Sat arvo in practice than 1 timed run and way less time on the track... Not to mention that this system would also double the cost of timing for a race, and do the same for volunteer and race organiser stress levels.

[Dazed&Confuzed]

The race format that CCOMTB used for the NSW state championships is the format that is laid down in the MTBA rules. At this stage we will not be changing it. The format produces the best race day finale.
We (CCOMTB) give the riders 2 runs on club days to give the riders a better average time. If the number of riders increases too much we will have to go back to 1 race run.

[mtbmamma]

Just to send things off on a different tangent, is there a chance that races NOT be scheduled on Mother's and Father's Days? And that goes for club races as well. It's too hard to come up with an adequate excuse to race. :mad:

I agree, last year both Mothers and Fathers Days were spent on the side of a dusty cold mountain, Stromlo, and a cold wet mountain, Lithgow. Would like to sleep in on Mothers Day and take it easy.:)

[mtbmamma]

Well then the slower riders will have to train so they can be at the same level as the top riders. That's not rocket surgery is it? Seriously, have a look at what you're asking, and think about how damn absurd it sounds!

Well Rik, its not as easy as that. There are riders who, no matter how much training they do, will always be slower. It isn't because they are unfit but there is a part of the brain that works better in some people than others and its called the self preservation section. The older you get the stronger that section of the brain works. It doesn't matter how hard you train it will still overrule some of one's decisions.:)

[mtbmamma]

Here's an idea for you about why we do not give all the riders 2 runs.
NSW State Championships 13th August 2006:
210 riders at 30 second intervals and 2 runs equals 210 minutes
10 minutes gap between first race run and second race run.
15 classes with a 3 minute gap between each class ( twice because there are 2 runs) equals 90 minutes.
210 + 10 + 90 = 310 minutes
310 divided by 60 = 5 hours and 10 minutes
Race start time 1:00 pm
Race finish time 6:10 pm
Sunset time on 13th August 5:30 pm
We'll put you class off last just so that you can enjoy a race run in the dark.
Or maybe you would like to volunteer to be a starter or finish time keeper and stand or sit around for 5 + hours straight without a break.

I suggest that he comes and stands at the bottom of the track for 4+ hours at either Stromlo in - degrees or Lithgow in very similar conditions. Once his hands stop working and the blood slows up in the rest of his body then he may see that the current system works well. Well it does in my opinion and the clubs do very well with organisation and getting everything done in such a short space of time.:)

[intense jonoooo]

VOTE 1 for demo man!!!
VOTE 2 for mtbmamaa!!!

[Plow King]

Well.. Why not include the qualifying time and the race run instead of just the race run?

[Squidly Didly]

Well.. Why not include the qualifying time and the race run instead of just the race run?
It aint how it's done in the World Cup, and it aint gonna happen here!

You've seen the crowds that can gather at the finish line for the "finals". It gets quite epic at times. The fastest time in the Finals is the winner of the race. Simple.

To encourage the faster riders to actually put a bit more effort into their qualifying runs, we will now be offering Series Points on qualifying runs as well as the final runs. This should hopefully encourage the fastest man/woman of the day to actually qualify first. Again, this is how it's done at the World Cup level.

[Plow King]

It aint how it's done in the World Cup, and it aint gonna happen here!

You've seen the crowds that can gather at the finish line for the "finals". It gets quite epic at times. The fastest time in the Finals is the winner of the race. Simple.

To encourage the faster riders to actually put a bit more effort into their qualifying runs, we will now be offering Series Points on qualifying runs as well as the final runs. This should hopefully encourage the fastest man/woman of the day to actually qualify first. Again, this is how it's done at the World Cup level.

Fantastic! Great news

Cheers:)