Like Whistler

[Specialized Freerider]

I bet there are many guys out there who are like me. Watch Drop In tons of times and just wish that there could be at least ONE trail out there that is super tech, flowy and fun. Like Woodlot or The Circus in B.C. If we got a huge group together and spent some good time building i think with the numbers and planing, we could get a serious trail network going out there. You cant just rush in, it needs to be though about and planned. Take the DH track in Oxford Falls for instance. We could work some WELL BUILT skinneys, huge berms, gaps and drops. I know might say there is already that stuff there, but i mean flowy and groomed. Not a rough trail leading off into many directions. I'm would be the first out there helping, but we need a group of guys who love their Freeriding. SO MANY people are always saying they dont want to make it to big incase the council comes down and wreaks the trail. Well what if we explain to them and slowly they will come to terms with us. How about the HUNDREDS of trails through B.C? There not getting pulled down are they? Are there guys out there willing to help?

Cheers

[nizai]

I beg to differ the Mt Fromme North Shore trails have been torn down and rebuilt many many times. The Canadian riders face all the same battles that we do.

Which is why theres so many bumper stickers in Canada saying "Mountain biking is not a crime"

N

[olly1oo6]

if we got a huge group together and spent some good time building

...and therein lies the problem. Most people in Australia (including myself) have no idea how much better things can get. I feel your pain mate. We simply do not have a trail-building community. Some local jump builders here have fantastic ideas, initiative and drive to make some amazing jump trails, but the same cannot be said for Freeride trails.

Clubs unfortunately only focus on old-school (rough) DH tracks. Many clubs put solid work into their tracks, but its a very unbalanced outlook. Everyone else simply expects decent, smooth trails to magically appear.

I'm glad I am not the only one cringing at shit tracks, the more this concept is raised, the more people become aware of the issue

[Daver]

Take the DH track in Oxford Falls for instance. We could work some WELL BUILT skinneys, huge berms, gaps and drops. I know might say there is already that stuff there, but i mean flowy and groomed. Not a rough trail leading off into many directions. I'm would be the first out there helping, but we need a group of guys who love their Freeriding. SO MANY people are always saying they dont want to make it to big incase the council comes down and wreaks the trail. Well what if we explain to them and slowly they will come to terms with us. How about the HUNDREDS of trails through B.C? There not getting pulled down are they? Are there guys out there willing to help?

Cheers

A lot of DH ers in Australia would rather ride rougher stuff than an immbecable groomed trail. And if you want people's views on ewok stuff then go back a few months and you'd remember that oxford falls was covered in the shit- then it went.

N. Rennie- "mountainbikers ride on dirt, not on wooden bridges"

As for trails in BC, ewok bridges have to exist there in order for them to actually use the trails- the winter storms obliterate trees which "litter" the tracks making them unrideable. They then build bridges to allow the trail to be rideable. If you've ever boarded or skiied over there in the winter you'd notice that now even the terrain park skills are used- to grind on the fallen trees. In Australia, we don't have these storms, and the amount of trees that fall onto DH tracks come down so rarely that no one creates the shitty structures. Hence ewok shit has no place in Australia.

[sammydog]

Clubs unfortunately only focus on old-school (rough) DH tracks. Many clubs put solid work into their tracks, but its a very unbalanced outlook. Everyone else simply expects decent, smooth trails to magically appear.


No, clubs focus on building what their members want and what is sustainable in the long term.

Land Managers don't want it, and in our clubs case, no one has ever come to the club asking for it, so we focus on race tracks (be it XC, DH or 4X). Its not unbalanced in any way and to suggest so is either misinformed or a blind misguide3d opinion. End of story.

[olly1oo6]

No, clubs focus on building what their members want and what is sustainable in the long term.

Land Managers don't want it, and in our clubs case, no one has ever come to the club asking for it, so we focus on race tracks (be it XC, DH or 4X). Its not unbalanced in any way and to suggest so is either misinformed or a blind misguide3d opinion. End of story.

it is certianly not mis-informed to suggest that club tracks are unbalanced. Of course most club members want DH tracks, most members are, after all, racers.

What I meant with that statement is that the future of smooth, groomed trails and big hits do not lie with clubs, as they have an unbalanced outlook on trails. It's not the fault of the club, its simply the outlook of most club members that influence it.

The only future may lie in ski-resorts, and illegal construction of trails. Some trails on the Canadian North Shore are legit, and this results from council acceptance. (unfortunately quite unlikely to occur here)

[sammydog]

it is certianly not mis-informed to suggest that club tracks are unbalanced. Of course most club members want DH tracks, most members are, after all, racers.

What I meant with that statement is that the future of smooth, groomed trails and big hits do not lie with clubs, as they have an unbalanced outlook on trails. It's not the fault of the club, its simply the outlook of most club members that influence it.

The only future may lie in ski-resorts, and illegal construction of trails. Some trails on the Canadian North Shore are legit, and this results from council acceptance. (unfortunately quite unlikely to occur here)

Well from the opinion of some one who works within Council (and quiet possibly investigates illegal trails), and from the opinion of a rider (and club representative) working with another unanamed Council to provide a legal freeride/NS facility, I can tell you illegal trails are not the answer and go no way to being a part of the solution.

Illegal trails have gone very close to derailling the process we are undertaking right now to get legal access to a certain area for freeride. Illegal trails are used as an arguement as to why a legal area could possibly fail.

So, go ahead and build what you want illegally, just don't do it in the Council area I work, or the Council's I am (or more specifically, my club is) working with to secure land for this purpose.

NSW ski resorts are smack bang in the middle of National Park, so I wouldn't be holding your breath there for a whistler type set up. As sweet as it would be, NPWS won't let it happen (in NSW anyway).

[northshoreaddict]

Don't tell council if your guna build north shore, don't tell anybody.

Me and a mate have built a shore trail, consisting of ladders, drops, skinnies, berms, all that shit, Over 200m without even touching the ground!

It doesnt appear overnight, isnt free and isnt all that easy to Build! Where doyou guna get all your timber from,(either treated pine or hardwood)nails and fixings and all that shit.

Im a carpenter and have nail guns, drills and i collect scrap timber and woteva we chuck out and our trail has taken over a year to build, nearly every wkend and and a few arvo shifts and still isnt really complete (needs to be longer).

To build and and maintain a NS trail takes 100% dedication and no fucking around!!!!

[olly1oo6]

I am very well aware of the impact illegal trails have on legal trails, and the way it may limit the potential to one day have a legal freeride track; however it doesnt mean that you can simply flick off the switch and say to everyone, "we're very sorry, but we've now eliminated all illegal trails. Now just sit tight and we will make you a nice, legal one for your troubles."

It simply won't happen, and it will just be another one of those too little too late actions that sit on the drawing boards forever. It is a cynical opinion, but legal freeride tracks are still far away in the distant future, or not at all in the scale of likelihood.

Its a catch-22, the more illegal trails being built means the decreasing likelihood of a legal one to one day exist, but at the same time people simply cannot rely on legal DH tracks for their sport, as the avenue is far to limiting to the skills and abilities of freeriders who want to push their own limits.

Illegal trails have gone very close to derailling the process we are undertaking right now to get legal access to a certain area for freeride

Thats actually great to hear that HMBA is actually planning to open up a trail for freeride, but it really is the first time I've ever heard of one even being proposed. Without a supporting base for freeriders, they will continue to build illegal trails until another avenue opens up.

[scratchy]

Whoa! Too far, too fast.

In the legal track scheme of things, extreme Ewok is about as far away from legal as you can get. Seriously, you might as well be lobbying for legal base jumping or Russian roulette tournaments.

The way to get Ewok is like everything else in life, gradual progression. Baby steps.

1st you get legal trails for mums and dads to cruise along the park.
2nd you subtly start tweaking the 2nd stage into more interesting trails, trails most MTBer would like to ride.
3rd you start tackling steeper terrain, up and Down
4th The Downs conveniently become the focus with jumps and berms. Council doesn’t mind as the MTB community through stages 1-4 has shown itself to be a responsible and mature community to work with.
5th stage, North shore structures start appearing on some extreme downhill runs. Purely done as feelers with consultancy with council- the problem with northshore, if someone gets hurt, someone made the structure, so some idiot has someone to sue. That worries the council. But the MTB group have a long history through stages 1-5 so it goes through.
6th Over time more extreme track are built, until Extreme EWOK eventually happens.

Steps 1 to 6 will take years. It’s already happening in some places but there are no shortcuts to legal EWOK. Pessimism won't make it happen either.

This is similar to what’s happened over in Whistler, Whistler didn’t just happen. An it certainly didn’t happen because a bunch of guys said fuggit and built without trying to work with councils and find a legal solution.

[blomtrog]

out past blackheath there are lots of pines...at least it would look like drop in if you built up there....bit of a hike tho.

[Specialized Freerider]

Yeah man, quite a few times i've driven through there and thought it would be an awsome place. I can just hope the freeride scene in Australia picks up.

[FR Drew]

Scratchy,

I reckon one of the easiest ways to get to early ewok would be to use it in the places recently being discussed on the topic of dirt/mud and soils that can't hold up to traffic.

Last year at the 24 hour race in Canberra, a range of low level pallet bridges were constructed to avoid boggy areas and water soaks so as to make sections of the track rideable.

North Shore can enter Australian track building here, for environmental protection and sustainable trails sake, not for freeride sake. This is exactly how it originally developed in BC. The ground wasn't stable to take conventional trails and shore was built to lessen the environmental impact while keeping the area rideable.

CORC, the MTB club in Canberra has a few low level north shore structures now at Majura and they've been achieved through precisely this route. We are now building a few log rides at Stromlo and I'm expect that eventually there will be more technical stuff constructed.

Once a club is accepted by the landowners as able to properly build and maintain beginner level (low and wide) shore, then you can progress to more technical stuff in the areas where more technical riding occurs.

If you take the enviro route, you can build eco friendly and sustainable trail to ride in more areas and it gets you directly to step 5 on your list.

[AN AUSSIE]

N. Rennie- "mountainbikers ride on dirt, not on wooden bridges"

and since when exactly is it nessesary to have 10 different bikes that all in the end "ride on dirt"? ahah:)

north shore is in everyones dreams, if you wish to flame it its because u know u cant have it.

[sammydog]

If you take the enviro route, you can build eco friendly and sustainable trail to ride in more areas and it gets you directly to step 5 on your list.

Couldn't agree with that more. In certain situations Northshore has its place.

The problem the majority of it is built for the sake of having northshore, not environmental reasons.

[FR Drew]

Certainly shore gets built purely for shore's sake, but people ride rock gardens when they could be riding smooth trails too.

Riders want to ride technical trail features for the challenge, not necessarily because the terrain requires them. In this context shore enables more challenging features to be made part of a trail, even if the landscape cannot provide that challenge.

I mean, no-one is arguing that because of moisture and tree falls there's a need on Fromme Mountain for 10cm wide skinnys that are 15 feet up in the air. It's about a challenge.

Trail builders can use the environmental need to justify shore. Once it is established that they can do so sensibly, then there is no reason why they cannot install shore for the sake of technical challenge. I mean, are the authorities going to tell you that you can't build a trail with a rock garden because of liability? Why should well constructed shore be subject to restriction that other technical challenges aren't?

If we didn't look for challenges in out trails then we'd all be riding smooth groomed XC loops. Shore is just another way to get there.

[Specialized Freerider]

Thats what im trying to get people to reason on. You guys who made the last couple of points are right. Just because a trail is smooth does not mean that it is easy. I'm sure if you ask most freeriders what they would prefer; smooth, flowy, north shore or rough, open tracks that in alot of places can be acheived on a xc bike then i think you know who would get the most votes. When are people going to open their eyes and see that it can be done and dont run out on the idea just because you might think the council might object. If there are SO many of us wanting it, then they will see that and come to realise it's a growing sport. Cheers

[Daver]

and since when exactly is it nessesary to have 10 different bikes that all in the end "ride on dirt"? ahah:)

north shore is in everyones dreams, if you wish to flame it its because u know u cant have it.

I don't get your first point at all. And you're half right on the second point- it is in my dreams, but its me pulling it down rather than riding it. At the end of the day, trailbuilding comes down to flow. Ewok shit (especially in Australia) lacks flow, and the builders don't seem to be able to make anything other than a huck, and what they do make is either rickety as hell or is a whole pallet wide, meaning that its a bloody freeway. It achieves nothing better than what the original trail does, nor does it serve any purpose other than wasting wood. It seems that on the odd occassion that it is necessary to elevate the trail off the ground builders whack down a few pallets and effectively remove the damage from bikes to the ground. Thats fine. But why on earth would you build some shitty ewok structure over perfectly suitable dirt or rocks?

On a trail access issue, anything ewok is bad news, especially when it leads to trail closures and pissed off residents. In case anyone hasn't noticed, mountainbiking is not exactly heralded as a good thing, and it seems that any publicity it gets is bad.

[FR Drew]

Hell, "Freeriders" can't even agree what "Freeride" means, let alone what sort of trail they love the most.

Ask 5 mtb riders and you'll get 5 totally different answers. Some folks love smooth and flowy, some love rough, some love loose, some love berms, some love off camber, some love rock gardens, some love bridges, some love teeter totters, some love skinnys, some love drops, some love drops to flat, some love gaps, some want anyone who isn't fully OMG MADCORE WOOT!!! to seriously F4RK themselves up if they try to ride the track, some want A, B and C lines.

Personally, I'm of the view that good track design means that a track is rideable by a novice on a short fork travel hardtail xc bike, but rideable at decent pace by an intermediate rider on a 5 or 6 inch duallie and rideable hell fast by an elite level rider on an 8 inch DH rig who has the skills and the lack of fear to negotiate the rough A lines and punch the big A line gaps (where the novice can simply tootle through the C lines).

A well designed track should be rideable by everyone and it should be your skill level primarily that determines how fast you can go.

There are some who believe that a Worlds level track should not be rideable by normal folks. Personally I think that's a bullshit copout that is merely covering for poor track design. To have a track for all comers takes better design and more resources but it is achievable if people are willing to put the effort in.

I'd like to have my run times improve as my skills grow but on a lot of trails there's no intermediate step that sits between a 6 inch drop and a 3 foot drop. There's no allowing for gradual progression in skills. So little Johnny either takes the B line and is slow, or he runs the risk of axeing himself before he has the skills to pull of the big drops. As i said, that's crap trail design.

[Specialized Freerider]

A well designed track should be rideable by everyone and it should be your skill level primarily that determines how fast you can go.

I'd like to have my run times improve as my skills grow but on a lot of trails there's no intermediate step that sits between a 6 inch drop and a 3 foot drop. There's no allowing for gradual progression in skills. So little Johnny either takes the B line and is slow, or he runs the risk of axeing himself before he has the skills to pull of the big drops. As i said, that's crap trail design.

I agree on what you say. Tracks need to be well made but also have different types of things. (we dont even have many tracks that have a couple of things) anyway. How do riders improve when on the track there is a 15ft drop and no other smaller ones to practise on.

[thecat]

Thats actually great to hear that HMBA is actually planning to open up a trail for freeride, but it really is the first time I've ever heard of one even being proposed. Without a supporting base for freeriders, they will continue to build illegal trails until another avenue opens up.

See that part of the misinformation or lack of communication, and HMBA isn't the only club negotiating with land managers to set aside areas for properly constructed trails.

However these things take time and dedication. Too often freeriders want results now.

The simply fact is that BC NS stuff developed for a reason, getting over blow downs and bog holes. In Aus we don't often have that sort of issue, shouldn't we be developing our own style rather than be Canadain wannabes?
Our mountains tend to be rough and rocky. Therefore so are our trails.

That said, there are instances where a raise platform would be beneficial to the environmental sustainability of a trail. Convincing land managers of that is the hard part, especially when they see people recklessly cutting down trees willy nilly to make illegal stuff.

To do it properly it needs
1) Permision
2) organised planning
3) proper building practices

[thecat]

Whoa! Too far, too fast.

In the legal track scheme of things, extreme Ewok is about as far away from legal as you can get. Seriously, you might as well be lobbying for legal base jumping.


BASE jumping is legal, you just have to apply for the right permits in certain areas.




The way to get Ewok is like everything else in life, gradual progression. Baby steps.

1st you get legal trails for mums and dads to cruise along the park.
2nd you subtly start tweaking the 2nd stage into more interesting trails, trails most MTBer would like to ride.
3rd you start tackling steeper terrain, up and Down
4th The Downs conveniently become the focus with jumps and berms. Council doesn’t mind as the MTB community through stages 1-4 has shown itself to be a responsible and mature community to work with.
5th stage, North shore structures start appearing on some extreme downhill runs. Purely done as feelers with consultancy with council- the problem with northshore, if someone gets hurt, someone made the structure, so some idiot has someone to sue. That worries the council. But the MTB group have a long history through stages 1-5 so it goes through.
6th Over time more extreme track are built, until Extreme EWOK eventually happens.

Steps 1 to 6 will take years. It’s already happening in some places but there are no shortcuts to legal EWOK. Pessimism won't make it happen either.

This is similar to what’s happened over in Whistler, Whistler didn’t just happen. An it certainly didn’t happen because a bunch of guys said fuggit and built without trying to work with councils and find a legal solution.

Most excellently said. I just wanted to quote it so it appeared again

[thecat]

North Shore can enter Australian track building here, for environmental protection and sustainable trails sake, not for freeride sake. This is exactly how it originally developed in BC. The ground wasn't stable to take conventional trails and shore was built to lessen the environmental impact while keeping the area rideable.


The B line down through our rock garden is a raise wooden plaform. As are the 2 bridges over the creek.

See we are slowly sneeking these things in.

Slowly. slowly.

[olly1oo6]

shouldn't we be developing our own style rather than be Canadain wannabes?

We already have our own style, but trail planning has been too narrow-minded to accomodate the need for other types of trails. It's simply too easy to wave excuses at people and say, "hey our mountains are rocky so we don't need smooth trails"

I think that australia has room for NS structures, FR Drew is spot on, but more specifically it just needs good trail structures; these can easily be made of rock. Stepdowns, hips, gaps, big berms all don't involve the use of north shore.

Scratchy is right, these things will take time, we are still in the deep south of trail building, in Australia.

[thecat]

but more specifically it just needs good trail structures; these can easily be made of rock. Stepdowns, hips, gaps, big berms
Yep never seen any of those on an Ausie track. Never.
http://forums.farkin.net/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Registered Nutcase]

Yep never seen any of those on an Ausie track. Never.
http://forums.farkin.net/images/icons/icon12.gif

dude lay off, a few years ago people ripped on freeriders, i say go for it, find a legal place to do it and make some nice smooth flowly trails, with north shore and whatever you want.


thecat, why are you so closed minded on this, variety is good, it is how the sport evolves.

compare coffs to stromlo. they are to extreams one is smooth rainforest and one is a 2min rockgarden. they are both good tracks and its the vairety that makes them both good. IF all the tracks were smooth like coffs it wouldnt be special. and the same with stromlo.

im sure you will agree with me that we have alot more stromlo style tracks in NSW, as opposed to coff style ones. i agree that aus is rocky and we will always have more rocky tracks but why are you so negitive towards different ideas?

northshore is like any other type of riding. we are not "Canadain wannabes" for following on with a riding style that someone invented. all styles started somewhere, northshore is no different it has as much skill as dh and as much dedication as DJ. to sit there and carefully build those ramps skinnies etc shows it.

to sum up.

let them build their flowly smooth trails and their northshore it will be awsome to ride something different. just make sure you go about it the right way

[thecat]

thecat, why are you so closed minded on this, variety is good, it is how the sport evolves.


Because he is asking for things we already have.
Sure there isn't too many hips in race tracks, but that is because 90% of riders would straight line it. But there are a few hips around.

As for big berms, gaps and step downs, there are heaps.

Maybe he sould ride a few of these tracks before passing judgment.

Hell, our XC track has all those.
You want flowing berm after flowing berm on a long smooth trail? Try a few of the sections use in the Killingworth XC tracks, they'll make you cream.

And just because the clubs race track is the only track most people see when they come into any area doesn't mean it's the only track they are working on.

There isn't too many places in NSW where you can build a 3min long smooth as a babies bum track to use for a state race. It's not that we refuse to build them, we just don't have the terrain and land access on a state race level.

Read my posts Nutcase, we are working on freeride areas, as are a lot of other clubs,the NSW state coordinater is desperately trying to work out how we can include freeriding inthe state series. How is that being closed minded and resisting the sports evolution?

[ya_frizz]

almost everyone in this thread has their own opinion and most of the people are all right, the great thing about free riding is that it is such a broad sport and you can't adzactly define it.
we should all speak to resort managment boards up on mountain / ski resorts, for example there are heeps of riders up at mt hotham and they are trying to get the ski board to aprove it all, they only have one track up there at the moment and the locals up there are all pushing hard for more, they almost got a new track but at the last moment it was rejected by ski compony because for some reason they thought it would be to expensive. the thing is in a national park (alpine national park) for every bush you remove you have to replace it with 3 more bushes and maintain it for 10 years, thats what the locals told me. they also told me to get all my mates and push the ski componys, send them emails, send them letter or even give them a call, if there is enough of us pushing it i think the ski componys may realise that MTBing is a real sport and it's getting more popular every day. all we need to do is push the resort managment board or the lift componys to give us the aproval and then we can start building.

marcus

[tallongdownhill]

this is interesting as i have been discussing this with my friends about my property we are building a dh track,north shore trails with everything you can imagine and a xc track also .My property is 150 acres of pure hills and lots of trees ,we have been building the tracks slowly as money some times stops us for doing more work.My main aim is to make a mainly freeride park like whistler.:)

[dcrofty]

OK here is an update from the home of north shore-fresh from todays paper.

Secondly, I hope that those wanting to build at Oxford Falls have seen this thread
http://forums.farkin.net/showthread.php?t=104391 and had a think about contributing to the trails that might be built there.

I think its a miricle that Oxford has been allowed to exist for as long as it has and assume that its days are numbered. Its a shame cause I've had a lot of fun there but I just can't see it lasting.

[JakeGorey]

Hey, if this thing happens, me and one of my friends will be more then happy to put in the hours. Cheers.

[Sam!!]

north shore is in everyones dreams,.


hahha are you kidding me?

[frenchie]

There is no reason why northshore can't be built legally and well in Australia. The main reason it doesnt (IMO) is that the majority of guys slaving behind the scenes to secure legal trails do not necessarily like this type of track. Personally having worked with councils on a number of tracks, I'm not a huge fan of northshore, particularly the rubbish ewok shite that gets built everywhere on perfectly good trails. If all those guys building the ewok rubbish concentrated their efforts on lobbying for official venues then things would happen. As others have said this takes time. In Tassie I have nearly finished work on a slopestyle track (as far as I know the first official track of its kind in Aus) at the Glenorchy bike Park, big flowy lines, jumps, wall rides, platforms, bowls, and eventually a satellite dish etc etc....How was this done? Working away with councils and working up to it, after building tamer trails. I also have my own insurance as a trail designer, and have proven designs. Councils have money and are wiling to spend it, properly. You need to address risk management and liability issues, and be willing to dedicate a lot of time to the cause. If you want proper northshore my advice would be:

1. stop building the ewok shite on perfectly good trails, Canada has different public liability laws to us. Here it does our sport massive damage.
2. Work with those in your area who have connections in council and proven ability to organise legal trails
3. present your idea using proven examples, whistler have a trail design code which is proven. Google it, find it, and use it. Also consider looking at the IMBA guidelines on northshore.
4. You will need a good knowledge of risk management and liability- as above use someone who has done this before
5. I strongly suggest using a professional trail design business who follow international (proven) standards, and have their own design insurance. This provides great reassurance for land owners and managers.

I don't know how much experience or enthusiasm Glen at world-trail has for north shore but it is worth a go. My business Dirt Art could help, or others if anyone has suggestions?
It seems northshore has a dedicated fan base in Australia, you guys just need to be organised and work towards having your own legal trails,
cheers
frenchy

[FR Drew]

I'd take issue with the line that the reason Shore doesn't get built here is because the advocacy guys don't like it. Two guys very active in the trails side of our club have spent lots of time in Canada and would love to have some shore style tech trail features in our neck of the woods.

The things standing in the way are firstly, the perception amongst land managers as to the extreme risk that north shore style TTF's represent and secondly, the regular appearance of dodgily built crap that reinforces that perception.

Shore (I'll use the word in preference to TTF's, a ballpoint pen is a Biro, wooden TTF's are shore even if they aren't in BC, get over it) that is well constructed, that complies with IMBA guidlines on stuff like filters, clear fall zones, trail grading, appropriate materials and so forth has the potential to be accepted in Australian trails. Some folks like riding on rock, some folks like riding on dirt, some folks like riding on wood. That's fine.

What's not fine is to have a beginner XC loop and then suddenly throw in a 2 foot high shore drop to flat made out of a busted arse bit of old brickies pallet and a few downed logs. Does it flow? Were people expecting it? Did it match the skill level of the surrounding trail? Was it properly built, stable and likely to last?

Many trails advocates shy away from pushing the shore line because it's going to be an uphill battle to get it approved, some twerp grom or older person who should know better is going to add new non-authorised lines of "not-shore" as soon as they've seen the first sign of anything ewok in the area and then the authorities are going to crack the shits again.

In our case we've got advocacy work to do that will quite easily last the 3 or so folks on the team the next half a decade even if we don't go near pushing for shore. If a shore lover wants to step up to the club and be willing to responsibly follow a course of action in dealing with authorities to get some accepted and approved and constructed and maintained and to ensure that only what has been approved is allowed to stay constructed in the areas where the club builds trails then I'm quite sure (pun narrowly avoided) that it's do-able. In the absence of any such person popping in, there's heaps of work to do getting the trails at Stromlo sorted, lobbying for legal dirt jumps under way, negotiations to take place with government on access to nature parks on single trail as opposed to vehicular fire roads and plenty more to keep the team busy.

Shore won't happen by itself, getting it approved (like dirt jumps) will take a lot of work. How many folks in your local club are just turn up and ride folks? How many regularly show up to trailbuilding working bees? How many organise and plan and run those working bees and do the other advocacy work.

I'd be surprised if then numbers stack up any better than 90% just ride, 10% sometimes show for trailbuilding and 1-2% do any of the trails planning and advocacy.

[dcrofty]

If a shore lover wants to step up to the club and be willing to responsibly follow a course of action in dealing with authorities to get some accepted and approved and constructed and maintained and to ensure that only what has been approved is allowed to stay constructed in the areas where the club builds trails then I'm quite sure (pun narrowly avoided) that it's do-able.

If all of my stars align and lots of variables come to be this will be me one day. I've got the background of being a public servant and am currently getting the building experience to match. If my lovely girlfriend could only get a job in Canberra I'll be there in a flash.

[notenufftoys]

You guys are all talking about having to get the councils permission to build what you want, no matter what it is. Theres so many different types of trails these days not everyone will be happy no matter what you build.
So do what I did, buy a bit of land (or become good mates with someone who has land ;)) and that way you can build what you want, where you want, how big you want, how flowy, steep, whatever.

[FR Drew]

True, but only you can ride it unless you're willing to cough up mega dollars for insurance should someone else ride the trails you've constructed and axe themselves.

Also, many clubs don't have the financial resources to just buy great tracts of land, they're usually limited to what the government landholders will grant them access to.

Scratchy, what's the legal situation with the privately owned trail at Montacute that's regularly used for inside line series races? If someone gets hurt, who wears it? (and is it only open under MTBA sanctioned race conditions that insurance applies)

[DJninja]

Congratulations to Frenchy for getting the fisrt slopestyle course in Aus up and running.
Things in Townsville are slowly picking up mainly due to Peter (Mozzy) who is a keen mountain biker aswell as working for the local council. Having a mountain biker who is in the local council or has connections with them is the best thing you can have. Hopefully we are going to get some solid northshore built on our new downhill/freeride track soon.

[No Skid Marks]

Is anyone wanting North shore older than 18?
North shore is the worst thing that has happened to MTBing in Oz,it's screwing it for all of us. It's genrally boring once you've mastered it,so what's the point. It's all about flow or trying to echieve flow while ridding,there's no challenge to shore once you've done it.
Shore will probably never be legal for you to ride outside of competition due to the liability here in Oz.

[komodorider]

why do people think there are illegal tracks, because there is not enough legal ones. we need more trails to be built. There are so many good illegal trails out there and people never want to stop building better ones. Australian MTB needs to progress and when new trails are built it aids this progression. In short we need ilegal trails

peace

[brados20]

There are so many different styles of riding people enjoy. I can't get enough of rough rocky challenging DH tracks which require skill and concentration to master. Personally I don't like riding North Shore, mainly because I'm not so great balancing on skinnies! :) Does that mean skinnies have no place on our tracks?
There are some awesome NS style tracks around, and it is awesome to see the skills people have to ride them. Without these tracks our sport would not progress. I may love riding DH while someone else may love riding XC, or North shore. Each to their own.
We need some well planned out tracks to suit everyones styles. It is a shame that mountain biking is being frowned upon by councils across Australia because it is such a fun creative and unbelievably addictive sport.

[frenchie]

I wasn't suggesting that no one who like northshore was into advocacy, but you would have to agree that of those into advocacy and legal trail construction, not a great deal are huge north shore fans??
I've used the slopestyle here as a pilot and plan to build another in the new park we have happening next year, personally I prefer the slopestyle idea to northshore, but that said the principles are easily transferred. It depends on who you come up against in council these days, the way public liability is structured now (has recently changed) it is very very difficult to sue. The only real scope is where a land manager is aware of a risk (such as a fallen tree for example), and does nothing about it. Risk management studies easily declare the inherent danger of the sport, I then audit and sign things off under my own business insurance and we're away...

[BUSHPIG]

As for trails in BC, ewok bridges have to exist there in order for them to actually use the trails- the winter storms obliterate trees which "litter" the tracks making them unrideable. They then build bridges to allow the trail to be rideable. If you've ever boarded or skiied over there in the winter you'd notice that now even the terrain park skills are used- to grind on the fallen trees. In Australia, we don't have these storms, and the amount of trees that fall onto DH tracks come down so rarely that no one creates the shitty structures. Hence ewok shit has no place in Australia.

I agree 100% with your rant there daver, bridges do have to be built for trails to be rideable due to the terrain and earth forces, but, if people wish to ride stuff 1" wide then let them do it. Everyone has a riding style, let them be

[Rippor 215]

yeah, well I am trying to get somewhere near my house to make some pump track/jumpy track going. Its hard, but i've seen others do it.

[trouble]

I read a few pages not all but, at least for the time being from my perspective; the best outcome is for some super rich man who is a mtber..to buy a mountain off state land then turn it into Australia's whistler. If you get people to sigh a waver and stuff on your property ect ect. I do not think it is illegal to do that. As soon as you start charging people money it has to be a legit business, but isn't to hard to set up either. Money is the problem in that idea I think as state land wouldn't give up land easy. As for people saying there isn't enough dedicated builders or a high standard trail building community, you could be wrong, or maybe that's just me. I for one love designing downhill/freeride/4x/dj anything really. I have read through alot of trail building guides off MTBA ect. and they all make sense and if followed would make a sustainable trail 100% on the spot. I know for one its something to say OH I love doing drawings on paper. But I unusually enjoy building and enjoying seeing the progress and then knowing I've built it, to a standard that is high. If someone came up with some land. I would be more than willing to work other fellow trail builders to design and construct some REAL high quality sustainable trails. It isn't just going out and building a bit then keep going, the key to good trails alot is walking te hill 100 times over. Fidning best suitable lines ect. then designing it going through it, walk it again then start building. My 5 cents.

[nitrous to burn]

I only just read the first topic starter, about how he wants NS trails built in a local area to him, which would be the north shore or the northern beaches, so we can have a place LIKE WHISTLER. My general assumption is that at the moment, you will not find the people, time, money to get the track going unless, like earlier said we are taking leftovers from the local building site.

Oxford falls, as it is, is sitting on thin ice. I do not know alot, but from talking to some people i have learned that we are not to build new lines around the place any more, and to just stick with what we have, for the time being. The residents are working with the locals to get a legal riding spot for us, as they would rather see a bunch of MTB riders, walking into the trail on their bikes, in the nice peace full bushland, than a new development foing up at 6 in the morning. This is a good sign for us as we have more hope, but we shoul try to keep all new trail building to a low down.
I have said it before and i will say it again. I do not know if that is true, but i talked to the locals and they said it was.
Tom.

[trust in gravity]

instead of forming up a posse and "finding somewhere to do YOUR thang"
why not hook up with the crews that are already doing it?
AND THERE ARE PLENTY of people doing it. and im not talking about the illegals.
on this thread alone there are atleast four,five...even six legal builders looking to get more people involved. JOIN THEM!!!
what? it's not in your backyard~!!!! you may have to travel. freeride is not free!!!
it costs.not just bucks.but time and effort.

you may be lucky to find yourself a suger daddy who'll do the majic for you!
(i don't wanna know what you gotta do in return though)
there are people on here working with the council.lobbying for funding and access. there are others who through campaining long and hard. have accquired the land for MTB use.

AND ARE IN THE ACTUAL PROCESS OF BUILDING FREERIDE SPECIFIC PARKS AND TRAILS!!!!( ewok villages and all)
the tides have turned and more and more freeride will be made available for those wishing to pursue the big mountain dream! starting from the basics-up!!
obviously it wont be tomorrow. but all hands on deck! and it'll be sooner!!

you sound like your in the sydney area (Oxxi)
as sammydogg has said, the hunter crews are going nuts.
over the mountains cat's going sick with his doggs!!!
a little closer the filth of the pylet crew are ABOUT TO OPEN TO THE PUBLIC! their little freeride wet dream at kurrajong.
and if you ride oxxi you'll have come accross the builders there. you may even know them from there, jan and woody. are in the process of building some rather (ifimaysaysomyself) nice freeride lines which will be comming on line in the VERY near future out at wissmans ferry.(yes i have a vested interest in this last little matter.) but know.
that when their faze1 track comes on line.there will be many even more evil and feindish lines to follow!!! smooth and flowwy with big stuff. IN THE FUTURE!!!!
on legal,sanctioned land!
all you crazy freeridie cats gotta do is get invlolved.
if you want it.find it. make yourself apart of it and build it for everyone.
thats how the future will look good for us all.
it's already happening with or with out you. my feeling is. it'd be better with you all.

[sammydog]

you sound like your in the sydney area (Oxxi)
as sammydogg has said, the hunter crews are going nuts.
over the mountains cat's going sick with his doggs!!!
a little closer the filth of the pylet crew are ABOUT TO OPEN TO THE PUBLIC! their little freeride wet dream at kurrajong.


I'll be interested to see what you guys have done with Kurrajong and Del Rio, we haven't gone down the path of freeride yet, mainly because no one has approached us about getting anything started. The DH, Xc crews have been vocal and proactive in getting trails happening.

The next phase at Awaba will most likely include a decent DJ area and a Dual Slalom (or 4X) track, purely because people approached us who were prepared to work for it and see it through. Planning has started.

Its one thing to want these sorts of trails, and know they will stay, its another thing entirely to get off your arse and make it happen.

[trust in gravity]

I'll be interested to see what you guys have done with Kurrajong and Del Rio, we haven't gone down the path of freeride yet, mainly because no one has approached us about getting anything started. The DH, Xc crews have been vocal and proactive in getting trails happening.

The next phase at Awaba will most likely include a decent DJ area and a Dual Slalom (or 4X) track, purely because people approached us who were prepared to work for it and see it through. Planning has started.

Its one thing to want these sorts of trails, and know they will stay, its another thing entirely to get off your arse and make it happen.

big things for speacialized freerider???? (our illusterious thread starter.)

it's just like the man says....

[unitec]

AND THERE ARE PLENTY of people doing it. and im not talking about the illegals.
on this thread alone there are atleast four,five...even six legal builders looking to get more people involved. JOIN THEM!!!
.
Would love to know how many of these 5 or 6 legal builders are community or club based. There are many out there building illegal freeride that would definately prefer to be building legal stunts that won't get torn down however would prefer to do it for the benefit of the community and not to make some land owner rich.
Having said that I wonder if clubs are really the best people to manage freeride? Clubs are generally set up to run competitions and more acurately races and my guess is that the majority of freeriders are not nescessarily interested in competition. This in my view seems to be a little outside the clubs comfort zone considering the potential risk involved in being also responsible for massive stunts. Although many freeriders (like myself) also compete in DH events the culture of freeriding often seems to have more similarities with other freeriding forms like skate park & street??

[sammydog]

Would love to know how many of these 5 or 6 legal builders are community or club based. There are many out there building illegal freeride that would definately prefer to be building legal stunts that won't get torn down however would prefer to do it for the benefit of the community and not to make some land owner rich.

I don't know about clubs that would be making enough money out of any of the trails to make land owners rich. I guess an unfortunate reality at the moment though is that some people are having to pay to have access to lands upon which to build trails that will last.

Hopefully it won't always be that way.

Having said that I wonder if clubs are really the best people to manage freeride? Clubs are generally set up to run competitions and more acurately races and my guess is that the majority of freeriders are not nescessarily interested in competition. This in my view seems to be a little outside the clubs comfort zone considering the potential risk involved in being also responsible for massive stunts. Although many freeriders (like myself) also compete in DH events the culture of freeriding often seems to have more similarities with other freeriding forms like skate park & street??

You raise a good point, but I think the reality more sits with clubs providing for what their members want. I know CORC want to get some legal freeride stuff, WSMTB seem to be doing it at Del Rio and we are looking into it for Awaba.

At the end of the day though, clubs have a responsibility to their members. If the club members are DH and XC oriented, then that's what the clubs will provide. Certainly for now, our primary aim is to get the XC up and running and a possible second DH line. We have been approached by members about Dual Slalom and DJ's so are looking into that as well.

Back to the freeride though,

I'm not sure how big the stunts are planned to be at Del Rio, but certainly if we were to get something up and running, there would have to be a limit placed on the size of things, or at least some measures of safety built in.

I think though, that an real option open to freeriders is to collectively approach clubs and see what they can offer. Del Rio seems to be fitting the bill for free ride and I am sure if enough interest is shown, clubs may well consider it further.

[BUSHPIG]

Hows this for a measure of safety:
For "skinnies" above 8 foot in the air, rig a large net system around the structure so if you fall off you only fall 3 foot into the net.
how about it?

[wespelarno]

I can't imagine nets lasting, due to both use and vandalism

Bikes are covered in sharpish bits that are likely to tear the net. Or pedals getting caught in the netting and ripping it. They will get torn with day to day use and will be high maintainance

Vandals are likely to tear them down. Just watching the damage that gets done to a personal set of Dirt Jumps is rediculous. I had three office type chairs out there, all old and nasty but great for sitting in after a few runs. Two got stolen and one had the back snapped off. I also put a broom out at them for sweeping leaves of the trails. That lasted 3 days before some idiot broke it. These are both mindless acts of vandalism that benefited no one. The same is likely to happen to nets. Someone will think it is funny to tear them down and suddenly, they are gone.