View Full Version : Best disc brakes for modulation?
Techno Destructo
13-05-2003, 08:05 AM
Which brand?
And bigger or smaller rotors?
kalem
13-05-2003, 08:31 AM
ummm hope or shimano. big rotors because you have more power to work with, but small rotors simply because they have less power and won't lock up as easily. It goes both ways.
I've never found a brake that had poor modulation really (cept HS33s and the like - but they're designed to be literally on/off). Some people say Hayes have no modulation, but I reckon that's BS, mine are fine.
andrew
13-05-2003, 07:41 PM
meh, i know jack about disc brakes. all i know is the formula i tried sucked hard, and i wasnt too impressed with the hope.
Ive got a Hayes Mag with a 6" roter up front .. modulates pretty well ..
im looking to upgrade from my beasty Deore Vee brake on the back .. which keeps me downhilling fast .. cause i cannot brake .. haha .. but ive been looking into the Armour range ...
www.bikefanatic.com.au
www.mtbfreak.com
have reviews of the Armour range .. explainning that they modulate quite well .. and are apparently an almost copy of the hayes brakes.
and for $440 for a front and back set ... you cannot go wrong they reckon.
Ty said he rode some and they felt good ..
But id say .. most of your top end brakes should modulate fine .. if they dont .. u might want to check the setup.
I'll put in a good word for Armor brakes, they're pretty sweet!
belly_up
14-05-2003, 09:38 AM
My hopes are incredibly powerfull now that they're properly bled. Many people have said that they're the most powerfull set of disc's they've ever used. I guess the downside is that they are lacking in modulation for really gentle stuff. don't get me wrong, any sort of normal trail riding they'reawesome, and have plenty of modulation, but just when you're doing stuff like manuals or wheelies, it's pretty impossible to just feather the rear brake, without slamming the front end into the ground.
Scott
14-05-2003, 10:09 AM
my grimeca's are very good in that sense... but i hear that they are alot like shimano hydros... however, i do have some air in my hose so that may be contributing to it.
shimano = grimeca with different fluid (dot vs mineral), shimano licensed/stole the design of grimeca from what i've heard.
the only thing shimano ever designed from scrach was a paw ratchet, way back when in a little village in japan (it also happen to be usefull in fishing reels, think about it)
Armors are great (also sold as Dice brand), Hope replica uppers and Hayes replica caliper, used mine for a year with no problems.
shimano = grimeca with different fluid (dot vs mineral), shimano licensed/stole the design of grimeca from what i've heard.
the only thing shimano ever designed from scrach was a paw ratchet, way back when in a little village in japan (it also happen to be usefull in fishing reels, think about it)
I think Grimeca actually manufacture Shimano brakes. At the very least, Shimano has licensed Grimeca's design.
fastrider gus
14-05-2003, 05:19 PM
i like my mates XSIV 4 pots.. they are just XT's i guess but cheaper. even with a smaller rotor on the back they work unreal. the bigger one on the front is great too..
Doogs
14-05-2003, 06:00 PM
i was browsing thru some magazine in a shop, i think it was MBUK, and there was an ad for Clark's brakes,
some guy was going for gold, and he was using Hayes brakes.
go-figure.
Modulation.
isn't it more dependent on fingres?
unless you are using flashtac with hs33's.
Glock
15-05-2003, 07:42 PM
some would argue that hayes have three fifths of bugger all modulation, and that they are pretty much on/off. i don't think they're quite as bad as that, but they do seem to lack modulation when compared to my magura louise's. they're lightweight xc brakes that aren't quite as powerful as hayes but they stop pretty damn well if you ask me, and i am yet to experience brakes that have better modulation.
shmity
15-05-2003, 07:51 PM
I love my XTs, can feather it for endos, or get all loose in the rear end with one finger.
Techno Destructo
15-05-2003, 08:31 PM
Hey Belly-up... what model of Hopes are you running?
belly_up
15-05-2003, 08:47 PM
ummmm, M4's i think. the groovy 4 pot DH ones with 8in rotors both ends.
scratchy
24-02-2004, 04:36 PM
Shimano didn't steel Grimeca design. They got Grimeca to produce them under licence. Considering the tooling expense and the R&D that would go into developing a disk brake, not to mention the time lost to the competition, that was a pretty smart move. Worst modulation is the early mod. SRAM's easily.
Daver
24-02-2004, 04:45 PM
hopes- minis or m4s- all the xt's i have ridden are really sensative and very on/off
smooth
24-02-2004, 04:53 PM
Hope m4's, they are the shit!!! In my opinion hayes suck, xt's arnt to bad (iv only tried 6inch). Havnt tried the hope TI 6 pots but i guess htey would be good
Avanti_Racing
24-02-2004, 05:15 PM
i'd say xt's im running 6" rear xt and 7" armour on front , armours need a bleed but they are ok for now, xt are just....WOAH!
Ride_Guy
24-02-2004, 05:18 PM
M4's are good, i own a set, and suppossedly the Ti 6 Pots will be better...
FuTAnT
24-02-2004, 05:21 PM
some would argue that hayes have three fifths of bugger all modulation, and that they are pretty much on/off. i don't think they're quite as bad as that, but they do seem to lack modulation when compared to my magura louise's. they're lightweight xc brakes that aren't quite as powerful as hayes but they stop pretty damn well if you ask me, and i am yet to experience brakes that have better modulation.
I think the Hayes have problems with being bled properly in the first place. Some are great, some are not so great. After bleeding mine yesterday there's still no difference. I kinda like the feel I have on my Blade (sorry guys, it has a motor!) that it only takes a poofteenth of level travel for the brakes to start comin on.
As far as 'modulation' goes I'd say this is more to do with the friction pad material people are using. Essentially you want the mechanics of the system to work very strongly, with no spongyness. However, you can get more progression from the disc system by using softer/harder compounds and things like that. Also perhaps using braided Galfer lines to eliminate any unwanted hose expansion under braking.
FuTAnT
24-02-2004, 05:25 PM
As a sort of side topic here, has anyone actually tried running differenct caliper and master cylinder combinations? I'm thinking of trying to get hold of a Dice or Armour (whichever ones are cheaper and my mate can get me a better deal on) master cylinder with the Hayes calipers/pads/8" discs.
From a pure inspection point of view the Hayes master cylinders look to be a bit on the dodgy side. You compare that to the Dice with a nice little resevoir for the fluid and a proper sealing system and it all makes sense. It seems a friends bike gets air in the system pretty easily and they definately know what they're on about, so it's not mechanic ineptness.
lotec
24-02-2004, 05:31 PM
and using gothic rotors also helps
Shimano didn't steel Grimeca design. They got Grimeca to produce them under licence. Considering the tooling expense and the R&D that would go into developing a disk brake, not to mention the time lost to the competition, that was a pretty smart move. Worst modulation is the early mod. SRAM's easily.
Not sure how early model SRAM we're talking here, but the ones they brought out a couple of years ago were made by Grimeca as well.
scratchy
25-02-2004, 07:08 AM
Hayes also are a bit different in that they are a closed system without an open reserviour. This means you can flip the levers from left to right, not problem. The bad news is that they have to be bled, just perfect because there is nowhere for that bubble of air to escape to. Futant is right, different compounds make a big difference to the modulation. So try a couple of different compounds before ditching your brakes.
If you want lots of modulation for your HAyes you can just add a drop or two of oil onto your 8 inch rotor. Then they won't lock up unneccesarily......actually..... they won't lock up at all......actually....no.....don't do that.
Cave Dweller
25-02-2004, 10:08 AM
and using gothic rotors also helps
No they don't. Guys who have bought them have changed back because they offer less braking power
wombat
25-02-2004, 03:33 PM
Hayes also are a bit different in that they are a closed system without an open reserviour. This means you can flip the levers from left to right, not problem. The bad news is that they have to be bled, just perfect because there is nowhere for that bubble of air to escape to. Futant is right, different compounds make a big difference to the modulation. So try a couple of different compounds before ditching your brakes.
Aren't Hayes an open system, if they were closed you'd be able to adjust lever pull, and you'd also get the terrible pump you get with closed systems like old formulas. I thought it was just the location of the revovoir that made them flip-able.
Ride_Guy
25-02-2004, 04:29 PM
and using gothic rotors also helps
No they don't. Guys who have bought them have changed back because they offer less braking power
They also crack much easier than the standard hope rotor.
edwin veal
25-02-2004, 05:19 PM
hydros or cable?
what sort of price?
Austen
25-02-2004, 05:34 PM
ive just bought a 04 hope mono mini, hell yeah! nicest feel ever, and boys, dont even TOUCH a armour, they're sooooo bad, i dont no why everyone raves about them......?
gothic rotors no good everyone seems to think? maybe i should cancel my ordered one, they look soooo good though!
lotec
25-02-2004, 06:13 PM
and using gothic rotors also helps
No they don't. Guys who have bought them have changed back because they offer less braking power
They also crack much easier than the standard hope rotor.
well i was told and believed that they reduce power to increase modulation...
Hayes also are a bit different in that they are a closed system without an open reserviour. This means you can flip the levers from left to right, not problem. The bad news is that they have to be bled, just perfect because there is nowhere for that bubble of air to escape to. Futant is right, different compounds make a big difference to the modulation. So try a couple of different compounds before ditching your brakes.
No, Hayes are actually an open system. Wombat's right, the position of the reservoir and the way the system works, allows you to flip the levers over. All systems have to be properly bled anyway. Aside from the increased difficulty in bleeding (arguably), this is probably a better design in that aspect, than conventional hydro levers (IMO).
get shimano xt they llok mad and are good and strong
Daver
25-02-2004, 07:38 PM
pity they are sold out... thats wat squid told me... but they are like on/off switches (no modulation)...
pity they are sold out... thats wat squid told me... but they are like on/off switches (no modulation)...
What, Hayes or XTs? And if you can't "modulate" either of those brakes, you're so uncoordinated with your fingers that I'm surprised you can write your name.
scratchy
25-02-2004, 09:52 PM
Ow!
Modulation is more than simply the brand you use. Pad compound, Rotor condition/thickness, Rotor size, bleed job and setup will all contribute to snap or sag of a unit. Hayes definately seem to require a higher attention to detail regarding the setup (esp. the bleed), which people often get wrong. Kinda why I like some of the others, but having a mate with them on the American way and wanting to ride his bike was a definate plus, just undo the double bolts and swap em. Pity I didn't tell him I had done that!
wombat
25-02-2004, 09:55 PM
Yeah? I personally found my Hayes pretty fool proof to bleed, definately no harder than Hope/Maggies. And I'm with Socket, I really don't understand how people can complain about modulation on Hayes; mine are lacking power, but I'll write that off to the pads.
Ow!
Modulation is more than simply the brand you use. Pad compound, Rotor condition/thickness, Rotor size, bleed job and setup will all contribute to snap or sag of a unit. Hayes definately seem to require a higher attention to detail regarding the setup (esp. the bleed), which people often get wrong. Kinda why I like some of the others, but having a mate with them on the American way and wanting to ride his bike was a definate plus, just undo the double bolts and swap em. Pity I didn't tell him I had done that!
I would like to add to that, LEVER FEEL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MODULATION.
grovesy
25-02-2004, 10:15 PM
and boys, dont even TOUCH a armour, they're sooooo bad, i dont no why everyone raves about them......?
Have you used Armor mate?
Bunyip
25-02-2004, 10:19 PM
XT or Hope with 8" rotors
The only way to go.
Armours are powerfull but like a light switch on/off.
bazza
26-02-2004, 12:59 AM
xts are great!!!! so are hope minis! i liked the hope minis better though! very nice, and modulation there as well. this was on an 8 inch rotor. i run armours and they are on off brakes. they work awesome, major bite factor but yeah they dont have the same feeling of control that the hope have. if you have the money invest in some hope minis. great brakes. and if you have even more step up to the m4s.
Tankass
26-02-2004, 07:42 AM
erm.i tried my mate's hope m4s and c2s.but i still prefer my magura louise fr.personally i have a 2 pair of hayes and a pair of xts.but nothing beats the modulation of maguras.jus my opinion.
Daver
26-02-2004, 07:42 AM
pity they are sold out... thats wat squid told me... but they are like on/off switches (no modulation)...
What, Hayes or XTs? And if you can't "modulate" either of those brakes, you're so uncoordinated with your fingers that I'm surprised you can write your name.
I am talking about XT's... i actually find my hayes 6" really easy to modulate- far better than XT's, and up their with my hopes
Mommers
26-02-2004, 10:47 AM
I find my Hayes cables offer plenty of modulation for my need. I'm using the Shimano STX levers and when set up propely the are beautiful. Also the servo wave works good if u prefer more modulation or more power. I'm using 6" rotors.
toodles
26-02-2004, 12:10 PM
As a sort of side topic here, has anyone actually tried running differenct caliper and master cylinder combinations? I'm thinking of trying to get hold of a Dice or Armour (whichever ones are cheaper and my mate can get me a better deal on) master cylinder with the Hayes calipers/pads/8" discs.
Yeah I've been running a brake set that's a combination of '03 XT levers with '02 XSIV calipers using a XSIV braided cable on the rear, Shimano plastic cable on the front and Hayes rotors.
The combination of XT lever with XSIV caliper is one of the best modulating brakes I've ever used but I get air ingress and over heating problems with it. Doh! If your going to give this a go, read up on brake fluids because changing a system from mineral oil to DOT 5 or DOT3/4 isn't easy. It only works with new components or after careful flushing and sometimes won't work at all anyway.
To second what a few people have said, I think the majority of brakes on the market can be set up very well if you know what you're doing and try different combinations of pads. Disc pads last awhile so a lot of people don't realise the effect they have on modulation. EBC do a good range of pads to suit most brands, and most brands supply their own pads in a few different compounds. I won't blag brakes I've never tried or worked on, but there are a couple that are simply crap and will be a struggle to get performing well no matter what you do. Hayes, Shimanos and Hopes are good brakes though and you should be able to get any set of them working for you with a bit of attention to careful bleeding, pad choice and rotor maintenance.
Try running a metallic and organic pads, or a combination to get the "feel" you're after.
Misplaced
26-02-2004, 12:53 PM
Which brand?
And bigger or smaller rotors?
TD, youve created a monster, what have you done. The XTvsHopevsHayes war will never end and youve stirred it up even more!
P.S go the Coda single pistons!
bikeman_baldrik
26-02-2004, 12:57 PM
SHIMANO XT with 8inch rotors
pity they are sold out... thats wat squid told me... but they are like on/off switches (no modulation)...
What, Hayes or XTs? And if you can't "modulate" either of those brakes, you're so uncoordinated with your fingers that I'm surprised you can write your name.
I am talking about XT's... i actually find my hayes 6" really easy to modulate- far better than XT's, and up their with my hopes
Really? I've never had any problem at all with the sets I've ridden, in fact they're my favourite brake.
has anyone tried the avid Juicys??
id be interested to know how they are...
has anyone tried the avid Juicys??
id be interested to know how they are...
Yep.
cam-o
26-02-2004, 02:05 PM
has anyone tried the avid Juicys??
id be interested to know how they are...
Yep.
And??
toodles
27-02-2004, 06:57 AM
I'm interested in the Avid Juicys because they let you adjust the lever amount your lever travels before actuation. Most other brakes don't let you do this without also adjusting the reach of the lever. But every review I've seen on the Avids suggests they lack the power of Hayes or Shimano. Are they bringing out a more DH orientated version in the future or is this it?
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