Illicit Industries Hub and Headset

[Ryan]

Illicit Industries - Australian designed, Australian-made and with their sights firmly set on producing blinged-out components to rival any of the world's major manufacturers. We've got their 20mm Front Hub and brand new sealed 1-1/8" Headset for you to drool over (http://www.farkin.net/page.php?zp=ffb686).

[udi]

You really need to publish weight figures and go into detail about what makes the parts special, rather than just saying they are "bling" and great because they slap a serial number and a signature on a card.

$270 is a lot of money for a 20mm front hub, and similarly priced options such as king and hugi boast features like light-contact labyrinth seals, stainless steel bearings, one-piece axles, and very low weight figures.

The headset was covered a lot better, but again things like stack height are important at the top-end of things - and that one looks somewhat tall.

Just my horrific dissection of the review... I think they call it constructive criticism these days? :)

[Ryan]

Sorry, I forget that people don't click on links these days. Don't know why I even bother putting them in the review.

Claimed weight for the hub is 210 grams, I got 212 on an accurate digital scale with the hub and was happy with that, didn't see a reason to challenge it in the review and had you clicked on the link that said "20mm front hub" all of this could have been revealed. To be honest, everything that is "special" about it was covered, there's not that much about a front hub that can be "special" in my eyes. It's light, it's individually numbered, it runs on quality bearings and it's locally made. That is what is special about it. If you really need labrynth seals on your sealed-bearing hub, you obviously don't actually live or ride in Australia, where nothing ever gets wet or muddy ;)

Claimed stack height on the headest is 33mm, my verniers agree, not the lowest out there but not unreasonable by any means. Again, clicking the link that said "1/18th Sealed Headset" could have told you this as well. :)

I will add these pieces of information to the actual review text though, so as to save people the horror of having to click hyperlinks.

[udi]

Ah sorry, my mistake.
Last time I visited their site they had nothing up - no weights no stack heights, nothing. Just assumed it hadn't changed. Any news about what's on the cards for the rear hubs?

PS. in regards to wet and mud, damn that first toowoomba race was dry and dusty... and all those canungra rounds were cancelled due to sandstorms I heard? :p

[arpit]

similarly priced options such as king and hugi boast features like ... stainless steel bearings,


Why? stainless steel is softer than hardened steel, Isn't it? Surely a proper non-stainless steel bearing would last longer than a stainless steel one?

[udi]

You are correct. But they do cost a fair amount more, and my comment was in regards to where the money goes in other highend hubs. ;)

[Ryan]

In regards to the rear hubs, they are in the prototype testing stage as we speak. Word from Illicit is; light weight, same/similar bearings and more engagement points than you ever thought possible. Well, maybe not that many, but a lot of them.

[arpit]

What TYPE of bearings do they use? I've seen pics of full complement bearings being used in bottom brackets made by companies such as race face. It'd be nice to know that that stupidy doesn't manifest itself in the wheel bearings at the whim of a braindead designer who gets impressed by the higher load ratings.

[juzz]

I run an illicit headset and oh so smooth is the feel. I have checked the front hub , that thing just spins all day. When your at the next vic races, check out Evan Winton's and Jarl Jensen's rides they are sporting some illicit product, nice, smooth and a nice AUSSIE product what more is there to say.

[Frantic_on_manik]

Airel australia also make this sorta stuff and its just as good, cheaper to! so when did these guys become the only small DH parts in aus?

[roxy12]

Airel australia also make this sorta stuff and its just as good, cheaper to! so when did these guys become the only small DH parts in aus?

just out of curiosity have you actualy used both to beable to back that up?

[downhill'r]

Last time I checked and Aireal front 20mm was 290 grams "just as good"?
As for stainless bearings, if you are getting enough water in your hubs that you need a stainless bearing I would you think you have bigger problems than rusty bearings. "stop pressure washing your bearings"

[Ryan]

The Illicit Hub is therefore 80 grams lighter than the Aireal, that's 28% lighter, which is a pretty significant difference. Whether it justifies the price difference is up to you.

I never denied the existence of Aireal either, just said that there weren't many onshore manufacturers. Everyone on Farkin already knows Aireal exist anyway.

[arpit]

Questions about the review

1. Was there any reason why you didn't compare these hubs to the aireal ones?
2. Did you buy the hubs and headset? Or were you given them as 'gifts' ? Understandably, this information is crucial when determining the neutrality of the review.
3. Did you disassemble them at all?

[t]

Airel australia also make this sorta stuff and its just as good, cheaper to! so when did these guys become the only small DH parts in aus?

I've rode a pair Aireal Hubs for nearly years and will confidently vouch that they are rubbish, after six months the bearings in the front developed so much play you could pop them out by hand not to mention that the crush tube wobbles around in the middle and the spacers are really easy to lose.

The rear is even worse, my free wheel jamed after a week, apparently that was an assembley fault, the after 3 months it jammed again, this time it was a dag on the crush tube causing problems. After about a year one of the QR adaptors failed, this is because of a design fault which creates a week spot right near the dropouts where it is subject to high sheer loads. Then after a another six months a bearing collapsed and destroyed the internal axel and the free body.

I put all that down to not prototyping thouroghly enough and comming at the whole thing from a manufacturing perspective.

Illicit on the contrary don't rush into things, they've been prototyping their rear hub for over 18 months and they have some of melbournes fastest riders putting them through their paces. They have set their sites on matching it with King, Hadley and Ringle and the most important part of that is having a near zero failure rate.

They've gone a long way to restoring my faith in Australian made parts.

[Ryan]

Questions about the review

1. Was there any reason why you didn't compare these hubs to the aireal ones?
2. Did you buy the hubs and headset? Or were you given them as 'gifts' ? Understandably, this information is crucial when determining the neutrality of the review.
3. Did you disassemble them at all?

1. I don't have a set of the new Aireal hubs to compare them to. Aireal recently changed owners and are apparently improving the old 20mm hubs, which were rubbish under their old owners. It didn't seem fair to criticise Aireal comparatively when I know they're working on improved designs that I haven't yet seen.

2. Bought them both but at industry prices. Fear not, if you know farkin you know we will never bullshit you in our reviews. See Chlorophilia and some of the review archives for examples. The hub for example, really is buttery-smooth and "holy shit!" light, lighter than a Hadley infact and for $50 less. Try and get your hands on one and you'll see what I mean.

3. Disassembled the headset but not the hub...will take the hub off and do a full service and pictorial after 6 months or so of riding. Anything you want to know about the headset?

[arpit]

Thanks for the quick reply Ryan, It's really good to hear that they weren't freebies.

Thanks for the offer, but no, there wasn't anything in particular I wanted to know about the headset.
I wanted to know what type of bearings the hub used. A common mistake is for bicycle parts companies to use full complement bearings in 'spinning' situations like bottom brackets. This makes for a very strong device, but as soon as a grain of dirt works itself in, it acts as an abrasive, and can't be pushed out. The demise of the device becomes imminent.

Good to hear that you are planning to follow up the review with a dissection and inspection of the hub after use.

[petri]

The onepointfive headset that i've been using for ages rocks.. (on the Splinter). The top stack height is 6mm on the proto which rocks... they understand when the simple things work well and do a really noice job going about it.

[scratchy]

I've rode a pair Aireal Hubs for nearly years and will confidently vouch that they are rubbish, after six months the bearings in the front developed so much play you could pop them out by hand not to mention that the crush tube wobbles around in the middle and the spacers are really easy to lose.


Don't make the mistake of comparing the old aireal with the new aireal. Same name, different manufacturers, different grade alloy, different bearings and hopefully different end product. Hopefully they are now good hubs. Might be worth a revisit.

[Frantic_on_manik]

if i want to save 80 grams of weight ill take a dump before i ride Lol

[toodles]

if i want to save 80 grams of weight ill take a dump before i ride Lol

Thanks for your input. No one cares.

[No Skid Marks]

There's a full of shit joke there but I'll leave it.
Both Hub and Headset look great.

[Frantic_on_manik]

O come on it was just a joke didn't mean to make anyone cranky

[Binaural]

O come on it was just a joke didn't mean to make anyone cranky

No one's cranky, they just don't care.

[arpit]

Thanks for your input. No one cares.


I care. It's certainly a cheaper way of saving weight than buying an expensive headset. It could be easier than replacing your headset too, depending on what you ate last night.

[udi]

I wanted to know what type of bearings the hub used. A common mistake is for bicycle parts companies to use full complement bearings in 'spinning' situations like bottom brackets. This makes for a very strong device, but as soon as a grain of dirt works itself in, it acts as an abrasive, and can't be pushed out. The demise of the device becomes imminent.

Do you just try to sound smart or something? Most of us realise this, it has been discussed before, and I don't think anyone apart from raceface (in their infinite wisdom) do this. Truvativ have done it in the past also, but neither company is known for their long lasting BB bearings.

All cartridge hubs i've pulled apart (from cheap to the peak of the pyramid) have had cartridge bearings with retainers, so I would assume the illicit is no exception. I was hinting that they might not be worth the bloated pricetag, but to assume they don't have a clue is going a bit far.

Cheers,
Udi

[toodles]

I care. It's certainly a cheaper way of saving weight than buying an expensive headset. It could be easier than replacing your headset too, depending on what you ate last night.

Yeah that's great. Until you actually care about your bike's weight. It was funny the first time I heard the old "i could shit before a ride and lose that much weight" argument. But now I think people who say that are daft. In the end they're picking up another bike in the carpark and going "damn that thing is light - how'd you get it so light?" SUM TOTAL people. 20 grams here and there and your bike weighs 2-3 kilos less than the other guys. Yes I know 20 grams in a hub is nothing but 20 grams per component is a lot.

[Quintin]

I care. It's certainly a cheaper way of saving weight than buying an expensive headset. It could be easier than replacing your headset too, depending on what you ate last night.

but if your bike is also 80 grams lighter and you log 80 grams, you are collectively 160 grams lighter.

[arpit]

Do you just try to sound smart or something?

I sure as hell don't try and sound dumb.


Most of us realise this, it has been discussed before, and I don't think anyone apart from raceface (in their infinite wisdom) do this. Truvativ have done it in the past also, but neither company is known for their long lasting BB bearings.

SO you acknowledge that major manufacturers have done this?


All cartridge hubs i've pulled apart (from cheap to the peak of the pyramid) have had cartridge bearings with retainers, so I would assume the illicit is no exception.

That's nice, but I was interested in reality, not Udi's assumptions.


but to assume they don't have a clue is going a bit far.

I'm not assuming anything, unlike yourself. I merely want to know what of bearings they use.

[S.]

I sure as hell don't try and sound dumb.


SO you acknowledge that major manufacturers have done this?



That's nice, but I was interested in reality, not Udi's assumptions.


I'm not assuming anything, unlike yourself. I merely want to know what of bearings they use.

1. For a law student I thought you'd be better at interpreting what he meant.

2. Yes but as he said, nobody has done it on hubs. Stop trying to construct an argument out of totally irrelevant "examples".

3 & 4. You made the assumption that in spite of all prior trends with hubs, that Illicit might for some reason deviate from what every single other hub has ever used in order to utilise something that doesn't suit the priority on consistently smooth running and high RPM, low radial load (relatively speaking) that front hubs see that BBs specifically do not, based on the fact that a pair of BB manufacturers have done it.

[udi]

Thanks S.

Maybe banning the sucker was a bit harsh... i'll guess that was for something else. :)

[Cave Dweller]

The onepointfive headset that i've been using for ages rocks.. (on the Splinter). The top stack height is 6mm on the proto which rocks... they understand when the simple things work well and do a really noice job going about it.

When will the zero stack headset be avaliable, and how much will it cost??

[Grip]

Maybe banning the sucker was a bit harsh... i'll guess that was for something else. :)

Yep... it was ;) but we would have stuck up for you anyway, Udi.:)

[Frantic_on_manik]

why dont people use roller bearings in hubs and frame pivots dont they have better weight distrubution and longer lives than ball bearings? someone let me know

[dazz]

why dont people use roller bearings in hubs and frame pivots dont they have better weight distrubution and longer lives than ball bearings? someone let me know

You mean needle roller bearings? Axial loading is the problem there. You need to take care of the side loads that can occur with wheel bearings & frame pivots.
If you mean taper roller bearings, as used in automotive wheel bearings then yes they would work & be urber strong, but there are a couple of reasons for not using them that I can see:
1 - A standard tapered roller bearing to suit 20mm shaft (front hub for example) starts at 97g, so would you like 0.2kg of bearings in your front hub??
2 - These style of bearings require careful assembly, too loose & you have play, too tight & you have a stiff bearing. So they would be a pain in the ass for something like a front hub that is constantly being removed.

Some lightweight taper roller bearings would be perfect for the headset though, a beefy head tube to suit a 1 1/8" ID bearing & wham! you have zero stack height & no need for the stupid headset arrangement everything uses at the moment. Unfortunately 'off the shelf' bearings in the right size weigh in at 220 grams each. (skf online brg cat)

[Frantic_on_manik]

no i mean straight roller bearings they way i was looking at a diagram the other day it seemed like they would be perfect for alll mtb applications every one all ways seems to be bitching about how all the stress is loaded on to one or to BB leading to short lives it seems to me that the roller bearings seem to have a much snugger fit into the bearing assembly thus making for much better load bearing capabilities i see your point however in regards to wheelsets but for frame pivots i think they would be ideal

[S.]

no i mean straight roller bearings they way i was looking at a diagram the other day it seemed like they would be perfect for alll mtb applications every one all ways seems to be bitching about how all the stress is loaded on to one or to BB leading to short lives it seems to me that the roller bearings seem to have a much snugger fit into the bearing assembly thus making for much better load bearing capabilities i see your point however in regards to wheelsets but for frame pivots i think they would be ideal

You've just won some free characters: .,'":;/? and so forth. Feel free to use them whenever you like!

Anyway BB bearings are notoriously small for the loads they have to deal with, which is why Shimano went to the outboard bearing thing. Front hub bearings seem to be much harder to kill, as well as needing to cope with much bigger thrust (side) loads which roller bearings are no good at (unless you use the tapered ones, but they're heavy). Ye olde ball bearing is pretty much the best thing for the job.
As far as frame pivots go, there are a few frames that already use roller bearings - Turner DHRs, PDC 825/Solaris, GT DHi, and I'm sure plenty of other assorted boutique frames.

[Frantic_on_manik]

So the side "thrust loads" are from riding or landing on angles like this? \\ or like this // , which means the problem could be solved by keeping your wheels in the || position. That doesn't sound like much fun ; this is a completly usless post but i won these "punctuation elves" fair and square. so i suppose i can misuse them whenever right?

[scratchy]

Yup, you're now entitled to use punctuation whenever you feel like it. Otherwise you're posts read like shit and you're actually asking some sensible questions.

[Crigsta]

Back to the topic of discussion then. :)

I have been running the illicit front 20mm hub on my bike for the past 4 months and have nothing but praise for it. It rolls soo smooth and is super stiff. It also looks beautiful. I picked mine up quite a bit cheaper from a bike shop that didnt appreciate its value. I think i payed like $180 for it which was a steal.

[Grip]

I have a sneaky suspicion this topic was dealt with 8 months ago ;)

[Crigsta]

I know :rolleyes: i thought i would add to the review that i have the front hub and absolutley love it in every way. :)

[neo_vitamin]

The web site for Illicit is down. Does anyone have contact details for these guys???

[ipod]

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you do know we cant read that...

any one know what happened to Illicit?

[chuckies_here]

Didn't they shut down?
Or am i thinking of somebody else...