Road Riding Etiquette - Comments Welcome

[HeezaGeeza]

Here's the deal. I picked up a new road bike on Saturday as I've decided to commute to work for various reasons.

Sunday I did a 60Km ride from the lower North Shore over the Harbour Bridge, through the city, up Oxford St, into Bondi, South Head and then followed the harbour back into the city. Main roads were Oxford St and Old South Head Road. I only write this so you know where I was.

Now, during this 'relaxing' Sunday ride, I encountered no less than six separate incidents of 'road rage' in one form or another. Now I consider myself to be a) cycling at a reasonable pace, b) aware of cars and considerate of them in that I don't weave in and out of traffic or jump lights and c) defensive in my riding style on the road.

The first incident involved me riding up Oxford St, where I spend most of my time in the bus lane with no problems until about half way up there were cars dotted parked evey now and then. I moved out into the second of three lanes and continued for a while. I was not taking up the whole lane but not at the edge either. I went past one set of parked cars and could see that about 150m ahead there was another set of parked cars, so I stayed in the second lane rather than get in the bus lane and then move back out again (my view was if I was a car I wouldn't pull in, so why should I on a bike).

Anyway, a woman driver, with 2 kids in the back and her husband in the front started hitting her horn constantly and moving up close behind me to move into the bus lane. I ignored this and she continued (there was another lane the other side of me should could have overtook me in as it wasn't busy) until she did get past me where she gave me a load of verbal abuse.

The other main one was cycling up Old South Head Rd into the city, about one third of a lan in on the inside of two lanes, when a woman again starts hitting her horn and trying to wave me over. I turned round ready to give her my polite opinion on the matter to see she was about 70 years old and I just couldn't do it.

I also had a taxi zip past me then pull over straight away and block my lane to pick up a fare and a bus overtake me then cut back in before he was even past me so I had to swerve and brake (I am reporting him as it pissed me off but I don't expect any response.

Now, I expect this is par for the course and cyclists are unfortunately at the bottom of the food chain. I just want to know do people think I was in the wrong to ride the way I did or is it the drivers?

I do not see why I should have to ride in the gutter where there are drains and ruts when my wheels are less than an inch wide. I don't believe in holding up traffic either but in all these cases the roads were not that busy and people could easily get past if they just moved around me. I was always taught when driving in the UK that you leave one cars width between you and a bike when overtaking.

What are your thoughts?

[bazza]

you have cleats don't you?? use them hahah. also a nice metal pump works quiet well. nah that sucks. you have your good days and your bad days on the road. just try riding different routes and areas and these might be a bit better or you might of just had a real shit day. don't get too wound up about it, its not really worth it. although buses and cabs should probably be reported if you can be bothered.

[Binaural]

I feel your pain.

I take the lane when I have to, and within try to let cars past as much as possible. I also indicate with my hand when I'm going to do so to help car drivers understand I am not just drifting idly about on the road to annoy them. I get very little aggro, but I chose where I live now partly based on having a really good run to work.

Incidentally, the experiences you describe are the reason I keep a customised for road MTB rather than a road bike. Makes it much harder to get caught by gutters, cracks, and you can ride on the footpath when traffic is bad. You're a bit slower but a lot less likely to get run over by some goon in a 4WD. Plus., I look bad in lycra :)

[Binaural]

you have cleats don't you?? use them hahah. also a nice metal pump works quiet well. nah that sucks. you have your good days and your bad days on the road. just try riding different routes and areas and these might be a bit better or you might of just had a real shit day. don't get too wound up about it, its not really worth it. although buses and cabs should probably be reported if you can be bothered.

AK-47: when you absolutely, positively, have to kill every motherfucker who cuts you off </Samuel L. Jackson>

[bazza]

AK-47: when you absolutely, positively, have to kill every motherfucker who cuts you off </Samuel L. Jackson>

ahhhhahaahha brilliant.

[Drizz]

AK-47: when you absolutely, positively, have to kill every motherfucker who cuts you off </Samuel L. Jackson>

My Christmas wish to Santa is a compact grenade launcher that fits in a hand-bag, comes with its own handle bar mount too.

On a serious note, I am amaze with the amount of people who think that cyclist has no rights on the roads. Some of their “pathetic” reasoning include that motorists paid their regos and duties which goes to maintaining the roads where cyclist don’t pay a cent and can use the road.

[Blas4me]

Sounds like you were doing everything right, but hey I guess some people can't handle a predictable rider :mad:
The best thing you can do is keep your wits about you, as long as you are in control there's not much you can do about the lost souls that don't know what to do when presented with something on 2 wheels.
Early weekend mornings are a great time to get out, very little car traffic (everyone wants to sleep in), you may find more cycling traffic at that time too. However, if you're one that likes to sleep in maybe try a night ride?
I hope you have better luck in future, it reallys makes you appreciate the good/considerate drivers you encounter!

OT: Drizz, have you read Spike Bike (http://members.aol.com/clubnbc/spike_1.htm)? Sounds like your cup of tea ;)

[tjb]

There is a certain percentage of dickheads out there. Riding in traffic tends to allow them to highlight themselves to you :-) Good luck, and don't let them get to you.

[tu plang]

the first time i ventured onto a main road with my roadie i got beeped more times than i have collectively since. now initially i thought i might have been doing something wrong but when i actually got beeped was the one section of road where there was a 1-lane wide shoulder on the road that i was using... i think a lot of the time when drivers give you a single beep its out of surprise because they weren't watching where they were going.

[McBain]

Sydney drivers are f-wits, plain and simple (I can say this with great authority because I am a driver in Sydney :p).

Fuled by the diatribes of Miranda Fucktard Devine and Michael Cocksmoker Duffy, they hate people on bikes with a passion unmatched by anything else in their pathetic little lives.

Also, don't forget that Sydney roads suck - they are poorly designed (ie, not designed at all) and badly managed.

What Sydney needs are trams - not just for the mass transit thing, but also to put car drivers in their place (bullies run away from bigger foes).

[liamo]

The first incident involved me riding up Oxford St, ...driver...started hitting her horn constantly and moving up close behind me to move into the bus lane... there was another lane the other side of me should could have overtook me in as it wasn't busyYou did exactly what I would have done, it was legal, it was safe and predictable while still allowing for the free flow of traffic. I still dunno why drivers get upset by things like this :rolleyes:

...cycling up Old South Head Rd into the city, about one third of a lan in on the inside of two lanes, when a woman again starts hitting her horn and trying to wave me over.Same situation as above really...

I also had a taxi zip past me then pull over straight away and block my lane to pick up a fare and a bus overtake me then cut back in before he was even past me so I had to swerve and brake (I am reporting him as it pissed me off but I don't expect any response.The first is arguably illegal, definitely dodgy. The second is definitely illegal.

Now, I expect this is par for the course and cyclists are unfortunately at the bottom of the food chain. I just want to know do people think I was in the wrong to ride the way I did or is it the drivers?It is just the drivers who were in the wrong. It's kinda par for the course in some ways, Sydney drivers do suck, but to have all of that happen in one 60k ride is really unlucky.

As an aside, I'd look at choosing a different route if you are looking for a 'relaxing' ride. Oxford St and Old South Head Road are both somewhat stressful. I am definitely NOT saying you are responsible for what happened or that you shouldn't have been there.

Liam

[sclyde2]

The best time to ride along oxford street is during peak hour. The bus lane is free of cars, and you don't have to pull out into the middle lane for parked cars. The lower part is much better now, with the wider bus lane, you can stay in the left lane even if you have to go around a bus (or parked cars outside of peak hour).

As for bridging a gap between parked cars on the left, I agree that you shouldn't have to pull left for the gap, if it is a "smaller" gap. Most bikes don't have rear vision mirrors, and you don't want to be having to look over you shoulder, having to pull out again, while the guy in the parked car in front is trying to take you out with his door. As for "smaller" gap, I suppose it is all a matter of degree, how long you are out there, with a free lane on your left. How long you are out there is key - going faster makes the gap smaller.

If you look like you are riding WITH PURPOSE, wanting to get somewhere in a hurry, I think you will find you have little to no problems. If you are plodding along at a slow speed, blocking lanes for seemingly unecessarily long periods of time, people will get the sh#ts and jump on the horn. I see "sunday riders" going along Oxford street sometimes, and think that they should probably get off the main roads and go some other way.

The road bike thing might be the problem too. The eastern suburbs are probably one of the worst places you can ride in (non-bike friendly roads and drivers), so you can't expect to be able to ride out from the gutter towards the middle of the lane, or even have the option of dodging potholes. I maintain that keeping a consistent line on the road is what keeps me safe, and I do ride very close to the edge of the lane most of the time. You also need to have the option of using the foot/bike path when you need it. I maintain that you "need it" when you are going 30km/h slower than the traffic, and have no bus lane to ride in. If you have to block a lane and can't ride faster than 30km/h below the speed limit, you should probably get off the road (my opinion). The example you mention is a good one. You will hold people up if you ride up old south head road. I always rode up the bike/foot path, the only real time I would on the ride to work. You can't expect to ride up that hill <15km/hr and not expect people to get p#ssed off. I'm not saying they are justified, but people are only human, a bit selfish.

I lived in Bondi for 2 years and rode up old south head road and along the length of oxord street both ways for over 2 years every work day without fail (ok, except when the bike was in the shop). I still live in the eastern suburbs, riding only the lower "good" part of oxford street now (come up through centennial park). I do not tolerate people beeping me at all (I see red), unless I do some occasional crazy riding, like when switching lanes in front of them at speed, which freaks some people out. In about 800 trips between the city and the eastern suburbs, I've been beeped about 5 times.

Luckily I haven't been doored yet, and have spent a lot of time near the middle of the middle lane along the upper part of oxford street, when the risk of dooring is highest (people in cars, narrow parking lane), ready for someone to beep me, but never have been beeped for that. I am of opinion that most drivers do not know that they are the ones who have the responsibility of looking out when opening their doors, so that terrifies me the most. Again, when riding like this (middle of the road), I am literally sprinting to the next big gap on the left or red light.

As for taxis and buses overtaking and immediately stopping, get used to it. Again, if you are going faster, it will happen a LOT less often. After riding that stretch many times, I started to notice the stop-in-fronts suddenly start happening as soon as I slow down a bit. After getting to know the bus stops along oxford street, I would sprint to them everytime I heard a bus coming up behind me, so it wouldn't get past me then stop, so I wouldn't have to then go around the bus into the middle lane of (fast travelling) cars, which, in my mind, is a risk everytime you have to do it.

Having said that, I have de-mirrored a taxi that did a pretty severe overtake-then-suddenly-stop in front of me - I was at speed, and it was just a little too extreme for me to tolerate. The impatient f$cker should have waited the 1 second.

Vehicles (almost always buses and taxis) that half overtake then pull left before they are fully past are something I don't tolerate. The few times that has happened to me, I continue riding alongside them, and ever closer to the gutter, ready to hit the brakes if/when I run out of road. I've never had to hit the brakes though (I can see them looking in the outside rear vision mirror at me, and they are not game to squash me into the gutter), and end up finally sneaking past them through the tiny gap on the left. Playing with fire, I know, but that REALLY pisses me off, and I get some satisfaction that they didn't get away with it. Again, they should wait the 1 second behind me - if they can't totally overtake, obviously I am not going that slow and am not going to hold them up very long at all.

I might sound a little hot-headed, but I don't get the least bit flustered when I nearly get killed by people who don't see me. It's the people who see me, then proceed to run me off the road that make me irate. For the record, I haven't ever been sideswiped (though some cars have passed VERY close), but have superman-ed over a volvo (coming the other way, it turned right across me, as I was going down a hill - foregivable didn't-see-me situation), and have been hit by a pantec, which was doing a very late run thru a red light in the city. I've been VERY lucky, walking away from both.

Maybe your problems on the weekend stems mostly from:
- weekend traffic
- 'relaxing ride' - forget about riding those roads unless you look like you are in a hurry. Take the back streets if you don't want to go flat out.
- what is "defensive" riding? Are you riding as if you are "defending" a lane? Looking as if you think you "own" a lane would rile some drivers. Yes, I know the rules are that you do have rights to a lane, but ........

All the above advice is coming from a mountainbiker-commuter, not a roadie. Roadies will probably disagree with a lot of what I have to say, telling you to be more assertive, you rights to a lane etc, but that just won't work in the eastern suburbs. Drivers attitudes there suck, and if you try the assertive method, you will just end up p#ssed off. I don't get assertive until someone is trying to kill me. Otherwise, I try to stay out of drivers way as much as possible, weighing up my inconvenience with theirs. I suppose it all comes down to a subconscious idea that: people who seem to be taking their time and making other people wait, should be happy to wait themselves. If you look like you have all the time in the world, don't look like you are in a rush, then people subconsiously will think that "well, that guy can wait" when they cut right in front of you and pick up a few passengers. Similarly, the sunday driver is half-expected to pull off the road at the first opprtunity when they are holding up a long line of cars on a long narrow winding country road.

As for the "drivers pay rego" argument from the idiots around the place, I've copped that one a few times. I don't see pedestrians run off the road though. Sydney has a pretty bad attitude towards cyclists. Yeah, the local govt is doing a lot - "The road is there to share" signs. At least they widened the lane in the lower part of Oxford Street. It has made a huge difference - much less risk/stress riding through that section now.

[dibo]

sydney drivers...

i live in stanmore, and i'd love to ride to work more than i do (haven't in months, but am thinking about it more now the weather's warmer) but it's just a little harrowing at times. i really try to stay within the rules, but the problem is that with that you have certain rights and responsibilities - basically the right to travel unimpeded and unintimidated and the responsibility to travel safely and within the rules.

the issue i have is that this only applies one way in practice. you give ground by following the rules, but it's hard to 'claim' ground like bridging gaps between parked cars, stop in the right hand lane and turn right (while traffic in the right lane *should* stop behind you, as you're a 'vehicle' they don't, so you're hanging out between two flying lanes of traffic, hoping for the best) etc...

[cellardoor]

A bicycle is entitled to take up a whole lane, same as a car. You tell those bozo's to read a rule book.

[sclyde2]

sydney drivers...

stop in the right hand lane and turn right (while traffic in the right lane *should* stop behind you, as you're a 'vehicle' they don't, so you're hanging out between two flying lanes of traffic, hoping for the best) etc...

I gave up trying that years ago, due to the fear of me ending up on someone's windscreen. If there's no right turn lane at a traffic light intersection, I just go to the left, stop around the ped crossing area, and wait for the lights to change....

[sclyde2]

A bicycle is entitled to take up a whole lane, same as a car. You tell those bozo's to read a rule book.

Yeah, the idealist's approach is one which I started out with. But, in practice, it doesn't work, and you just end up p#ssed off. You simply cannot expect to educate all the ignorant drivers on the road - it is too big a job. If there was heaps of cyclists on the streets, it might make it easier though.

[bazza]

deleted because i could

[HeezaGeeza]

Firstly, thanks for all the comments. I would like to add a few extra details to explain further my experience, most of this in response to sclyde2's detailed comments:

1. When I say relaxing ride, I meant that I find riding my bike relaxing. I wasn't just cruising down the road at 10kph, more like 25kph as an average.

2. My 'Defensive' riding is making other drivers aware that I am there and not staying in the gutters. I believe in taking up one third of a lane, so cars don't have to fully move lanes to get past me, but still have to actually go round me rather then trying to squeeze between me on one side and traffic on lane next to them.

3. On the up hills, I don't believe I should have to ride on the pavement (illegal I believe anyway) riding up a long hill. I don't think I should take up the whole lane though as well and at slower speeds I can afford to be over to the left more as I'm less likely to come unstuck with a drain or gutter I didn't see coming. I also agree that if I was holding up traffic Ishould pull over and let them pass, but this was not one of those occastions. On this point I would ordinarily state that I would pick a quieter road but this was the most logical route to get back into the city.

I didn't add about getting nearly doored as well when a guy stepped out of his Lexus, but in all fairness he really apologised (by saying shit, shit shit, sorry). I don't think he'll do it again in a hurry so no fowl there.

I've ridden on roads in London for years and have seen it all before, but not like that in one day. Rest assured I will continue to ride on the roads and put it down to one of those days. Just good to see I wasn't in the wrong. It's easy to get caught up in being a cyclist and not thinking about other road users when trying to protect yourself, so I wanted to be sure it wasn't me.

[alexb618]

it is usually just best to let it go and get your anger out on the bike. cutting people off is what taxi drivers and buses do.

and for the people beeping you at least they have seen you and appear to be paying at least a little bit of attention even if there are 2 spare lanes that they can get around you with... ;)

[Gekigengar]

does anyone actually think ( or know ) if sydney is going to improve the roads to make it cycle friendly?

[HeezaGeeza]

does anyone actually think ( or know ) if sydney is going to improve the roads to make it cycle friendly?ON that note I know that from the top of Spit Hill there is a 'cycle route' all the way into North Sydney which I rode with my wife the other day.

It avoids Military Rd which can be hairy for those less confident, but it involved going through small parks, over pavements and through barriers and wasn't really suitable for a road bike, only MTB or Hybrid.

It took about 20 minutes to get to the Oval in North Sydney with the wife (who can ride pretty well but doesn't like the roads) as opposed to six or seven minutes on Military Road.

At least they are providing an alternative, but really it's just sticking up a few signs, not actually making lanes, changing surfaces etc.

[sclyde2]

ahhhh someone on this forum has an understanding.

sclyde2 stop trying to get on a soap box on an internet forum and just get out and ride your bike more. i am just having a guess but i would say you probably don't ride that much and don't ride that far and haven't been riding for that long. once you start riding your bike 5-6 days a week and doing 150-200km a week you get a much better understanding of how cars operate and how to dodge projectiles.

some drivers are shitheads............yes we all know this. just get out there and ride. take the suggestions posted up on here and stop ranting and raving on.

Not really a soapbox, I just was just sharing my relevant experiences and how I respond to them, something which I thought heezageeza was wanting to hear.

He who seems like he spends a lot of time posting here ("get out and ride your bike more"), your guesses are wrong on all counts (and not appreciated), except maybe I don't ride that far on the road on each trip. On the contrary, I doubt that you'd have as much experience riding in those conditions - eastern suburbs streets with eastern suburbs drivers - which are not like riding on wide laned roads, edges etc. For f#ck sake, I did mention I've ridden that exact stretch 100s of times. Although considered a bit of a crazy rider by friends, I do ride for self preservation, and I am pretty happy with my road-incident record to date. If I couldn't read the traffic movements, I would've stopped riding to work years ago, from all the collsions I would've had ("..better understanding of how cars operate and how to dodge projectiles.." - you really are a piece of work).

I am just trying to share my views about what I think the mentality of drivers are around here, so heezageeza can understand where they are coming from, and one of the many ways he might deal with them. As I get a little hot under the collar from abusive motorists, I take steps to avoid p#ssing them off (even if they are unjustified). For those who don't get flustered by abuse, they can just stick to the rules, assert their position on the road, and get used to the beeping/yelling etc. Not for me though.

Sorry, I didn't realise just how long my original post was until I posted it. Maybe a bit too much detail..... is that the problem? You've years of experience riding in Sydney (eastern suburbs especially), yes?

[sclyde2]

3. On the up hills, I don't believe I should have to ride on the pavement (illegal I believe anyway) riding up a long hill. I don't think I should take up the whole lane though as well and at slower speeds I can afford to be over to the left more as I'm less likely to come unstuck with a drain or gutter I didn't see coming. I also agree that if I was holding up traffic Ishould pull over and let them pass, but this was not one of those occastions. On this point I would ordinarily state that I would pick a quieter road but this was the most logical route to get back into the city.

I've ridden on roads in London for years and have seen it all before, but not like that in one day. Rest assured I will continue to ride on the roads and put it down to one of those days. Just good to see I wasn't in the wrong. It's easy to get caught up in being a cyclist and not thinking about other road users when trying to protect yourself, so I wanted to be sure it wasn't me.

I don't ride on the footpath hardly ever (yes, it is illegal), but I did up that Old South Head road climb. It has been a couple of years since I rode it, but I think the footpath might be a foot/bike path. It wouldn't be a real option on a road bike though, as access to it isn't that easy (you'd prob have to hop a gutter while going uphill).

I was in shock when I first got to Sydney. The roads are definitely non-bike friendly, and the drivers are about as bad as you can get with their attitude towards bikes (the get outa my way attitude). Comparitively, London was a dream to ride (rode to work there for 2 yrs, but not the winters tho), compared to this sh#t. I just make do with what I have, to try and make it enjoyable as much as possible - I just can't do public transport. Yes, nothing you did was wrong, there's heaps of idiots on the road, so you have the option of either ignoring them or avoiding them.

[Dumbellina]

I hear you about Sydney drivers.

I got into a fight about two Sunday's ago for the actions of a driver (and my response). Out for some dusk road riding, when coming through Tempe on the way to Earlwood (along a section I ride as part of my daily commute). On this section, where there are concrete "traffic calmers" that force cars to slow down by having to negotiate blocks of concrete over most of the lane. The inevitable consequence is bikes and cars are forced to negotiate the same pinch points. The two pinch points are about 50 metres apart, so bikes have to "delay" cars for about 100 metres (where bikes have to occupy the lane about 25 meters before and after each "pinch"). I regularly get grief for drivers who are pissed that you are delaying them, but they can normally see what's happening and aren't too worried.

On this Sunday, the car behind me was giving me space but the car behind it was on the horn. The car reacted by forcing me out the way as soon as the "pinch" was past. I was angry with the second car and so splashed water (clean drinking water not sports drink which would have been a better contaminant) on his bonnet as a sign that I was pissed. I do this regularly just so they can see I am pissed (I have done the "de-mirroring" but that could get expensive), and if it goes wrong its an innocent act - its only water from a typical action of cyclist (clearing the spout).

The driver exploded - he was some wanker driving a wedding car in top hat, something I didn't see when I sprayed it. After a heated discussion while riding down the road. He cuts me off, parks the car, jumps out and comes ready to punch me. I stared him down and said "punch me, come on, there are plenty of witnesses now" (cars were stopping to see the commotion). He stood an inch from me, pointed his finger and huffed and puffed. When he saw that he had lost (ie that he was farked if he hit me), he got back in his car and drove off, erratically and trying to chase me down.

I sprinted through the streets while he chased me (literally), called me all kinds of names and threatened me. I got away at a busy roundabout when I signalled I was turning left and jumped right instead. He turned left and tried to "U" turn from what I could see. I feigned going down the Cooks River Cycleway but continued home via another route.

Anyway back on top, my advice is to hold your ground but be ready to fight for it if the need arises.

[DaGonz]

As an aside, I'd look at choosing a different route if you are looking for a 'relaxing' ride. Oxford St and Old South Head Road are both somewhat stressful. I am definitely NOT saying you are responsible for what happened or that you shouldn't have been there.


I can't stand that area on a weekend. I've house sat in paddington and couldn't wait to get out just because getting in and out in a *car* is a night mare, let alone on a bike. I would say the weekends were always worse than the weekdays I guess for the shops and the markets that are there...

Very much a "Hurry up and Get out of *my* Fugg'n way so I can Fugg'n relax!" thing going on there, and not sure you would have had any better reaction from the yocals if you were driving a cage. *shrug*

having spent the weekend riding along country roads I can definately see the attraction in getting out of sydney.

Cheers
Gonz

[sclyde2]

I hear you about Sydney drivers.

I got into a fight about two Sunday's ago for the actions of a driver (and my response). Out for some dusk road riding, when coming through Tempe on the way to Earlwood (along a section I ride as part of my daily commute). On this section, where there are concrete "traffic calmers" that force cars to slow down by having to negotiate blocks of concrete over most of the lane. The inevitable consequence is bikes and cars are forced to negotiate the same pinch points. The two pinch points are about 50 metres apart, so bikes have to "delay" cars for about 100 metres (where bikes have to occupy the lane about 25 meters before and after each "pinch"). I regularly get grief for drivers who are pissed that you are delaying them, but they can normally see what's happening and aren't too worried.

On this Sunday, the car behind me was giving me space but the car behind it was on the horn. The car reacted by forcing me out the way as soon as the "pinch" was past. I was angry with the second car and so splashed water (clean drinking water not sports drink which would have been a better contaminant) on his bonnet as a sign that I was pissed. I do this regularly just so they can see I am pissed (I have done the "de-mirroring" but that could get expensive), and if it goes wrong its an innocent act - its only water from a typical action of cyclist (clearing the spout).

The driver exploded - he was some wanker driving a wedding car in top hat, something I didn't see when I sprayed it. After a heated discussion while riding down the road. He cuts me off, parks the car, jumps out and comes ready to punch me. I stared him down and said "punch me, come on, there are plenty of witnesses now" (cars were stopping to see the commotion). He stood an inch from me, pointed his finger and huffed and puffed. When he saw that he had lost (ie that he was farked if he hit me), he got back in his car and drove off, erratically and trying to chase me down.

I sprinted through the streets while he chased me (literally), called me all kinds of names and threatened me. I got away at a busy roundabout when I signalled I was turning left and jumped right instead. He turned left and tried to "U" turn from what I could see. I feigned going down the Cooks River Cycleway but continued home via another route.

Anyway back on top, my advice is to hold your ground but be ready to fight for it if the need arises.

ha ha. well done, the idiot was probably then REALLY late for his wedding appointment. I personally wouldn't go provoking them though - but spraying water is hardly that bad. Try brake fluid next time (joking)....

[Carlin]

...b) aware of cars and considerate of them in that I don't weave in and out of traffic or jump lights...

I do both of these and I rarely cop abuse on the same roads you have mentioned. We all have good and bad days on the road. I try to shrug off incidents, forgive drivers, and do what it takes to move through and with the traffic. It is good for the soul and works for me.

[bazza]

Not really a soapbox, I just was just sharing my relevant experiences and how I respond to them, something which I thought heezageeza was wanting to hear.

He who seems like he spends a lot of time posting here ("get out and ride your bike more"), your guesses are wrong on all counts (and not appreciated), except maybe I don't ride that far on the road on each trip. On the contrary, I doubt that you'd have as much experience riding in those conditions - eastern suburbs streets with eastern suburbs drivers - which are not like riding on wide laned roads, edges etc. For f#ck sake, I did mention I've ridden that exact stretch 100s of times. Although considered a bit of a crazy rider by friends, I do ride for self preservation, and I am pretty happy with my road-incident record to date. If I couldn't read the traffic movements, I would've stopped riding to work years ago, from all the collsions I would've had ("..better understanding of how cars operate and how to dodge projectiles.." - you really are a piece of work).

I am just trying to share my views about what I think the mentality of drivers are around here, so heezageeza can understand where they are coming from, and one of the many ways he might deal with them. As I get a little hot under the collar from abusive motorists, I take steps to avoid p#ssing them off (even if they are unjustified). For those who don't get flustered by abuse, they can just stick to the rules, assert their position on the road, and get used to the beeping/yelling etc. Not for me though.

Sorry, I didn't realise just how long my original post was until I posted it. Maybe a bit too much detail..... is that the problem? You've years of experience riding in Sydney (eastern suburbs especially), yes?

i should probably read posts better. sozzzzzz mate.

[dibo]

does anyone actually think ( or know ) if sydney is going to improve the roads to make it cycle friendly?

[working from the assumption you're talking about improving roads specifically, rather than more generally making safe cycle routes]
the problem is that sydney roads are already too narrow and too overcrowded - even with a pretty effective public transport system there's a hell of a lot of cars, cabs and buses around and creating bike lanes is in many areas there's simply not the room to do it. backstreets are the only option (but in the CBD, every north-south street has a huge traffic load already).

i'm not sure what the solution is, but it's not going to be easy.

[Dumbellina]

[working from the assumption you're talking about improving roads specifically, rather than more generally making safe cycle routes]
the problem is that sydney roads are already too narrow and too overcrowded - even with a pretty effective public transport system there's a hell of a lot of cars, cabs and buses around and creating bike lanes is in many areas there's simply not the room to do it. backstreets are the only option (but in the CBD, every north-south street has a huge traffic load already).

i'm not sure what the solution is, but it's not going to be easy.

Banning cars, taxis, buses and trucks from the CBD would be the start. There are motorways around and under the CBD to move traffic around the CBD. Delivery vans would only be allowed in the CBD between certain times, and cars would have to pay a hefty tax or toll if they have to enter the city.

Stop tying executive salaries and prestige to packaged cars and parking spots. Give incentives for CBD-based companies pool bikes instead of pool cars (you don't need a V6 Camry/falcon/commodore to drive across the city to attend meetings). Encourage employers to provide bike parking, showers, lockers, etc (many do).

The tax on parking spots was supposed to discourage driving to and parking at work but companies merely absorbed the cost - the executives using their packaged cars were mostly unaffected by the additional tax. So new taxes alone are not the solution.

Build a more comprehensive tramway network to integrate with the other mass transit means, the train network. Stop bitching and moaning about "late" and "unclean" and "unsafe" trains - yeah Cityrail are useless but we have an effective train network. Make trains integrate better with cycling, remove the "childs fare" ticket requirement for cyclists at peak hour (as they define it) and provide better facilities for bikes on suburban trains.

These things are not rocket science, other cities are doing it or have done it (eg London). It makes the cities more livable, cleaner, safer, and better for cyclists.

The free choice twits out there will say, "I have the freedom to drive my car". Most libertines accept that personal freedoms are constrained by an harm exercising that freedom causes others - you may be free to swing a mace in Martin Place at lunchtime until it hit seriously wounds a passer-by. Similarly you may be free to drive your car in the CBD but the pollutant and amenity impacts, not to mention the road safety impacts mean that the harm caused exceeds the public benefit in exercising that freedom of driving a car.

[dibo]

we're not going to make the CBD motor vehicle free or anything near it. to make it bike safe we also don't really need to. the solutions won't be anything like as radical as suggested above, simply because there isn't any political will and i don't think there is the prospect of there being the sort of will to make it happen. i'm not personally convinced it's necessary.

we do have traffic management issues in the city, but there needs to be a smart way of dealing with it. i think instead of tolls on bypass roads (like the cross-city tunnel) there should be a (small) congestion charge instead. this way people passing through the city will stay off the city streets. theoretically, only those actually driving directly to or from city sites will be on city streets. have exemptions for residents.

as for getting execs, lawyers and captains of industry onto the office gary fisher to get across town in the rain - no way in a million years. it's simply not going to happen.

i also think better use of bus lanes and much stricter penalties for infringements of bus lanes and clearways is a very strong idea - stronger than spending billions on light rail infrastructure which by its nature will deliver a marginal increase in efficiency over bus lanes and create the problem of designing transfer points somewhere at the city fringe where people go from bus to tram. minimising the number of changes of mode of public transport is essential - PT must be easy or people don't use it.

as for trains, an extra line is being built into the CBD (don't hold your breath, these things take a while) which wil help a lot!

with luck, we'll get to the point where say... castlereagh and sussex sts becomes car free all the way uptown and become good safe bike corridors, and they should meet bike corridors coming in from the 'burbs. this way people will get on the bike more.

...more radically than that, a general focus on town planning that increases population density around major transport nodes and decreases the amount of 1/4 acre suburban sprawl is a good idea - increases PT usage and preserves bush for us to ride in.

[cellardoor]

as for getting execs, lawyers and captains of industry onto the office gary fisher to get across town in the rain - no way in a million years. it's simply not going to happen.

People always say shit like that but you know what. It could happen. And people like you are not helping the cause.
All it takes is a little soft power from a person who can affford to buy it.

[dcrofty]

I try to avoid doing things that I see some cyclists doing that piss me off when I'm driving a car. Its the good old cliche "a small minority spoil it for the majority" etc etc. Unfortunately some people do some shocking things out there on bikes.

Its interesting that if you show any sign of weakness on Sydney roads (indecision, wavering, driving slowly etc) then you will cop attitude. On the other hand if you drive decisively (even to the point of being over assertive and aggressive) people appear ready to accept it. In my experience this goes for cars as well as bikes.

Holding up traffic. (my opinion and experience here only)
If you have to hold up traffic you will get much less attitude if you look like you are trying to get out of their way as soon as possible. If I am ever in a situation where a car is waiting for me (trailing behind to turn left or an oncoming car wanting to turn right) I will get up out of the saddle and hammer it a bit to speed up and then sit back down and pedal faster until they are past. If I feel like laying it on a bit thick just before I get to the point where I'm not holding them up I'll back off a bit just so they get the hint that I was doing it for them. Its worth it in the lack of trouble that you cop when you ride like this and in the touch of goodwill that you might generate from the driver.

Bottom line in my opinion. If you dawdle along with a big sign hanging over your head saying Fuck you I'm a road user too you will get more attitude (even though I know you are perfectly entitled to) than if you try and hold people up as little as possible.

[dibo]

People always say shit like that but you know what. It could happen. And people like you are not helping the cause.
All it takes is a little soft power from a person who can affford to buy it.

i'm thinking practically - get one big shot in an armani suit on a bike on a wintry rainy day, or even in a warm springtime drizzle, and i'll eat my words. i'd be very very happy to be proven wrong, but confident that i won't be.

people will be using cars in the city for a long long time yet. i don't think the point is stopping them, i think the point is encouraging them to minimise it and harmonise the relationship between cars and bikes...


back on topic - dcrofty's probably right - if i annoy drivers minimally, most return the favour. the problem is the doofuses. the follow-on problem is that i'm almost certainly not going to hurt them no matter what i do, they may well hurt me.

[dcrofty]

Spot on with the doofus factor mate. And I agree with your comment about bikes not accidentally hurting cars but the opposite being quite possible. My worst accident was slamming into the side of a jaguar that pulled out in front of me in a roundabout. It was driven by a bike rider and the poor guy was horrified by what he had done. But he still did it and I could have been buggered up (no damage to bike or rider fortunately).

On bikes in the city I don't find it hard to see a few streets being closed to traffic and then having a simple and (relatively) cheap glass roof put over the top. Network of these streets builds up over time as cars are slowly excluded from more and more areas. As the network of clean, safe and dry bike corridors builds up people will start to use them.
Requires a bit of an attitude change and some cash but with the price of petrol and little johnnie finally coming round on climate change you can just start to see that these kind of things are going to start happening over time.

[Bodin]

People always say shit like that but you know what. It could happen. And people like you are not helping the cause.
All it takes is a little soft power from a person who can affford to buy it.

i'm thinking practically - get one big shot in an armani suit on a bike on a wintry rainy day, or even in a warm springtime drizzle, and i'll eat my words. i'd be very very happy to be proven wrong, but confident that i won't be.

cellardoor - while I agree with your sentiment, dibo has perfectly outlined the reason for his original statement.

I commute by both car and bike and the car has to remain an option for me because I sometimes need to take a lot of heavy/delicate PC equipment to/from work in all weather conditions. Cycling isn't always practical and sometimes it's outright impossible.

Having spent time in Sydney on a regular basis over the last year, I can only hope that my native, beautiful, wide-tree-lined-streeted Melbourne never goes the way of Sydney. There's a lot of good things about Sydney, but the roads ain't one of 'em, which is why it'll only ever be a tourist destination for me. I don't know what the solution is for you guys, as you can't widen the roads and you can't lower the population, so if you can get executives in Armani riding their bikes across town, I'll be the first to drop in and congratulate you.

[Dumbellina]

i'm thinking practically - get one big shot in an armani suit on a bike on a wintry rainy day, or even in a warm springtime drizzle, and i'll eat my words. i'd be very very happy to be proven wrong, but confident that i won't be.

people will be using cars in the city for a long long time yet. i don't think the point is stopping them, i think the point is encouraging them to minimise it and harmonise the relationship between cars and bikes...



You (and I have picked on Dibo but others make the same mistake) are not taking a futurist's perspective on the question. You assume that all office workers, executives and business will be just as it is today but at some time in the future. This is not the right way; conceive of the future in light of global changes rather small incremental ones.

So will office workers in the future be concerned that their Armani suits will be affected by a bit of rain on the pool bike?

The nature of office attire is likely to change in the future, for example many office workers, executives don't wear ties now. So do but many don't. So Armani suits may become more casual and comfortable and suitable for cycling.

Where we work is also like to change. Telecommuting - where people work outside the office and use electronic communication to remain in contact with the workplace - is growing. In my own office there are several women with young children who work from home one or more days a week.

Also CBD's are decentralising, for example large numbers of NSW government agencies are moving to Parramatta. Previously agencies were moved to regional centres like Maitland, Orange and Nowra. Major corporations are basing themselves in suburban business parks (like Maquarie Park) over a more expensive CBD base.

Many workplaces are now making cycling to work easier, with showers, bike storage and lockers. Some workplaces create a strong cycling culture, where to get ahead requires you to be part of that culture - a friend is a civil engineer and in his company he and two others in a firm of 20 are the only non-riders. There are moves by the government to encourage workplaces to promote cycling to work.

Despite all that has been said about "anti-bike attitudes", I noticed that the NRMA, the main car lobbyist in NSW has produced a book on CYCLING. Their magazine, Open Road, has run articles that spoke favourably about cycling. For every Devine, Duffy piece of crap, there are many writers writing positive pieces and getting printed. Bike sales outstrip cars, cycling is the fourth largest sport/recreation in Australia, participation in bike events have been increasing in the last couple of years. So cycling is getting support from sectors of the community once thought impossible.

The pool bicycle is also not likely to be like your bike. Shimano have got a bike that has electronic automatic gears, automatic suspension that is intended to be a "round town" bike for non-riders. The future pool bike will likely have similar feature to make it comfortable, easy to use and fashionable.

The car as the status symbol will end with ever increasing fuel prices and greater concern with climate change. Forget about the nuclear debate get those people driving to work out of there cars and using public transport, bikes or walking. The day of surburban 4WD is surely over (even car writers admit that...only the car makers don't get it.).

Planners know that for distances less than 8 km in the city, the bike is the fastest mode of transport. So they deliberately plan the city to reduce the numbers of journeys greater than 10 km to encourage cycling and other modes of transport.

[Techno Destructo]

sclyde2 stop trying to get on a soap box on an internet forum and just get out and ride your bike more. i am just having a guess but i would say you probably don't ride that much and don't ride that far and haven't been riding for that long. once you start riding your bike 5-6 days a week and doing 150-200km a week you get a much better understanding of how cars operate and how to dodge projectiles.

Bazza, I ride EVERY day to work (Manly to Newtown), rain or shine, 23km each way. So that's 48km a day. About 240km per week. Just commuting to work. (Not counting all my MTBing...) I've been doing this for the last six years. I hope I qualify as "experienced" in your books.

sclyde2 said a lot of really good stuff. I think you're out of line criticizing him. Instead of pointless negativity and attacking one of our own, please reserve your comments for more positive and constructive posts, please?

[williamsaztek]

Plenty of people in Paris riding bikes in their suits, work gear etc,

I was Paris for two weeks last year and do not remember a cyclist being tooted.

Not sure about riding a step though.......

[Mattydv]

Just a story that happened a few months ago to some friends of ours that are all very good triathletes.

Riding through Swansea a car that had just pulled out of Macdonalds drove past, and the kid threw an ice-cream out hitting one of the cyclists in the back so the cyclist took off after the car, but the car had a good start and for obvious reasons started to get away however the Swansea bridge then rose to allow a boat to pass through and they had a 10 minute period where they were able to explain to the parents what they're kid did. Of course the cyclists were rather angry and the parents were not interested in listening and just abused the cyclists. The cyclists then went to the front of the line of waiting traffic and then when the bridge was opened they rode off and when the car went past them again the wife wound the window down and gave them more abuse not realising the lights had just turned red. So they stopped at the traffic lights again, continuing the argument again, trying to make the mother see reason but she was too hotheaded so one of the cyclists calmly emptied his bidon of sports drink through the window over here to help her cool off. As the bidon emptied he realised that she had her sunday best on. And although her husband was sitting next to her, he was sensible and tried to apologise. The lights turned green and the car took off.

Incidently one of the cyclists see's the same woman again a few weeks later and she apologises over the whole incident.

Not necessarily the best way to approach a situation from both the cyclists and the family but I doubt that family will be abusing cyclists again.

[red death]

i'm thinking practically - get one big shot in an armani suit on a bike on a wintry rainy day, or even in a warm springtime drizzle, and i'll eat my words. i'd be very very happy to be proven wrong, but confident that i won't be.

happens in some parts, at least in fair weather anyway, go here (http://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/index.html)

[workmx]

Recently I have been commuting to work on the road and bike paths.
Sometimes I am passed by another cyclist who is only slightly quicker than me.
I try to catch up and then draft.
I always ask "do you mind if I slipstream behind you for a while?"
And I offer to take a turn at the front (I have seen that kind of riding style in road racing - eg: riders cooperating in a break away group).
I have had a variety of responses from blase to friendly to very negative.
Some riders even try to sprint away from me without saying anything.

Am I doing something wrong?
I am totally bemused by some people's reactions. :confused:
I have always ridden an MTB and most of that time off road.
So basically I know nothing about road riding etiquette.

BTW, I have only one bike - which is cheap(ish) and set up for XC/trail riding - so I just put on some slicks for the commute.
Also I don't wear lycra... is that part of the problem - that I look like a gumby on a cheap bike but can keep up with some (slow) roadies...?

[bazza]

Recently I have been commuting to work on the road and bike paths.
Sometimes I am passed by another cyclist who is only slightly quicker than me.
I try to catch up and then draft.
I always ask "do you mind if I slipstream behind you for a while?"
And I offer to take a turn at the front (I have seen that kind of riding style in road racing - eg: riders cooperating in a break away group).
I have had a variety of responses from blase to friendly to very negative.
Some riders even try to sprint away from me without saying anything.

Am I doing something wrong?
I am totally bemused by some people's reactions. :confused:
I have always ridden an MTB and most of that time off road.
So basically I know nothing about road riding etiquette.

BTW, I have only one bike - which is cheap(ish) and set up for XC/trail riding - so I just put on some slicks for the commute.
Also I don't wear lycra... is that part of the problem - that I look like a gumby on a cheap bike but can keep up with some (slow) roadies...?

depends on what mood i am in as to what i would do.
one mood would mean i would have a chat to you
2nd mood would be to let you tag along and not really give a shit
3rd mood would be just to ride off and see if you can stay on just for shits and giggles

again, depends on the day and the mood. some may not be accepting, more so just for avoiding you running into them, seen it happen several times..... not the best thing knowing you have some total stranger/possibly complete gumby sitting 10-20cm from your back wheel. everyones going to have a different reaction though.

[workmx]

depends on what mood i am in as to what i would do.
one mood would mean i would have a chat to you
2nd mood would be to let you tag along and not really give a shit
3rd mood would be just to ride off and see if you can stay on just for shits and giggles

again, depends on the day and the mood. some may not be accepting, more so just for avoiding you running into them, seen it happen several times..... not the best thing knowing you have some total stranger/possibly complete gumby sitting 10-20cm from your back wheel. everyones going to have a different reaction though.

I see... I guess.

At least I speak to the people that I slipstream.
I often have people do it to me without saying anything.
I had one guy do it while I was riding home today - hence I posted on this topic.
I always let them know I am there and ask if they mind me doing that.

[akashra]

3rd mood would be just to ride off and see if you can stay on just for shits and giggles
Most often this is the strategy I take ;) Usually they manage to stay there until we come to a hill, then it gets fun.

The ones that irritate me are ones who sit on your wheel, overtake you, then once they're out front they're much slower.

[alexb618]

Most often this is the strategy I take ;) Usually they manage to stay there until we come to a hill, then it gets fun.

The ones that irritate me are ones who sit on your wheel, overtake you, then once they're out front they're much slower.

not everyone is out trying to drop people, for all you know they have just clocked up 150km before you saw them

the ones that 'overtake you' were trying to just put some work in and give you a pull

in the regular group ride I do if I notice someone getting dropped and my legs feel good i will help pace them up to the pack again if they look like they can make it.

roadie ettiquite is there for a reason – one day the ‘unspoken rules’ will benefit you.

[akashra]

That's rarely the case with my commute. You can quickly spot the different between 'cyclists' and 'guys on bikes' from the way they behave. It's pretty rare you'd be doing long ks in the areas I'm talking about.

[workmx]

roadie ettiquite is there for a reason – one day the ‘unspoken rules’ will benefit you.

So... any chance you might be able to let me know some of these rules???

That's rarely the case with my commute. You can quickly spot the different between 'cyclists' and 'guys on bikes' from the way they behave. It's pretty rare you'd be doing long ks in the areas I'm talking about.

So... is it that I just look like a 'guy on bike'? See pic below for my typical riding outfit (no lycra, hairy legs, cheap MTB...) - it is an old pic, but you get the idea:

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/workmx/DSCN0443.jpg

[alexb618]

So... any chance you might be able to let me know some of these rules???


No because they are UNSPOKEN

Only kidding the only real set thing is to signal out stuff on the road/parked cars. The rest is just common sense and manners.

By the sounds of things you already know that :D

[climbo]

kinda like someone coming up to you in the street and walking right behind you, it's not the kinda thing you usually let complete strangers do without wondering why they would do it (announced or not). Rider experience and general knowledge of drafting and rules of the pack is widely varied so you're never sure if it's safe to let someone do it or not. That's why group riding takes some time to get cohesive, you need to be able to gauge riders skills and movements to assure that you will be safe.

[Carlin]

I'm no expert on the etiquette, but if someone is drafting me on the commute and I don't mind, I'll start to signal the hazards and my moves. Kind of an unspoken "I know you are there".

['Ross]

I hate being drafted, I think its un-nerving and potentially dangerous. Nobody has ever asked me if they could, they just plant themselves up my ass and try to stay there. Usually I try to lose them or shake them off.....not because I want to give them a hard time, but because I think its dangerous and annoying, similar to being tailgated in a car.

I have a fairly eratic riding style, my speed varies a fair bit and I do pretty random stuff depending on how I feel, and someone being so close when I suddenly stop would easily cause an accident. Also the fact that its just pretty annoying.

Also I have tried drafting with friends with their permission, and I don't really think you get much of an advantage at all, your better off braking the air for yourself I reckon, or at least ask like workmx does, because some people hate it!

[workmx]

Thanks guys - that has been helpful. :)
I understand why some people have a negative reaction now.

I need to improve my fitness anyway, so solo riding for me from now on! :o

[ducan]

Jeez what the hell are you doing wrong !

Ive never had that many in one ride... I cop abuse once everyweek just about !
Keep some little fireworks in your pocket and strike them when they yell at you through the window or you could go for the easier option been the water bottle ! Works a treat and shuts them up ... Or just fires them up more in which case just take the footpath !

[ducan]

Also I have tried drafting with friends with their permission, and I don't really think you get much of an advantage at all, your better off braking the air for yourself I reckon

It definatly does a heap of difference on my roadie its like 20km/h difference ive found ( thats a car )

['Ross]

It definatly does a heap of difference on my roadie its like 20km/h difference ive found ( thats a car )

???? You mean drafting another cyclist or drafting a car? I was exclusively talking about drafting cyclists. As for drafting other vehicles go for it! Sometimes I get a bit of a nice draft off some big trucks but thats about it for me, if Im driving everyone is welcomed to get behind my car and enjoy, but if Im riding.....stay off my ass!

[jasco]

I don't really think you get much of an advantage at all, your better off braking the air for yourself I reckon


BAhahahahaha.



and that is all

[at the drive in]

Also I have tried drafting with friends with their permission, and I don't really think you get much of an advantage at all, your better off braking the air for yourself I reckon,

Yeah ive also found little advantage in an aerodynamic time trail/pursuit position, theres no advantage in a time trail helmet and those aerodynamic BT's are a rip off.

['Ross]

Yeah ive also found little advantage in an aerodynamic time trail/pursuit position, theres no advantage in a time trail helmet and those aerodynamic BT's are a rip off.

So now you are changing the topic again? Im talking about commuting on a normal bicycle, not racing against Jasco to be World Champion of track racing, just normal commuting. If you are just commuting normally, why would you even seek the advantages of drafting another cyclist? Just seems like a waste of time and effort.

[Christo]

So now you are changing the topic again? Im talking about commuting on a normal bicycle, not racing against Jasco to be World Champion of track racing, just normal commuting. If you are just commuting normally, why would you even seek the advantages of drafting another cyclist? Just seems like a waste of time and effort.

Dude, you must have been trying to draft my grandmother or something!

Why? Save some energy! Especially into a headwind. Why would multi-million dollar TDF teams even bother with the team/domestique structure if it didn't work?

And hey, when you have a decent length commute, trust me, it's worth it.

Of course, if you're drafting someone, it's common courtesy to offer to reverse roles every so often.

['Ross]

So you obviously need a whole heap of criteria to make it worthwhile, headwind, suitable person, long enough commute, similar riding speeds, I never said it wasnt effective for track racing, road training, or riding with a group, but if you are just an average joe riding around for fun and enjoyment, there is probably little worth in wedging yourself up someones ass especially if they don't want you there.

[I-AM-TEH-FASTEST-11]

it's the difference between having to pedal, and having to brake

[ozelise]

So you obviously need a whole heap of criteria to make it worthwhile, headwind, suitable person, long enough commute, similar riding speeds, I never said it wasnt effective for track racing, road training, or riding with a group, but if you are just an average joe riding around for fun and enjoyment, there is probably little worth in wedging yourself up someones ass especially if they don't want you there.

I regularly ride a 80km route with 3 other riders. We try and maintain an average speed of 32kmh which is no problem as a group, and we all take turns leading. At the back of the group we are freewheeling a lot so we don't ram up the backside of the rider in front, while the lead rider is pedaling furiously. Riding the course alone, my average speed is just under 28km/h.

Here's the mythbusters approach:

http://scienceofcycling.com/?p=121

[rhysrhysbaby]

Ross, you should just give up now as you're wrong.
there are a heap of advantages drafting, and yes, these advantages flow all the way down to commuters.

['Ross]

Ross, you should just give up now as you're wrong.
there are a heap of advantages drafting, and yes, these advantages flow all the way down to commuters.

Wow, a couple of people took some of my quotes out of context, and then tried to form an arguement about something I wasn't even talking about. I feel so belittled.

I admit there are numerous advantages, but surely you can realise some people do not like others drafting them, and it is not always the best option in all conditions.

[Christo]

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb160/Christ0pha/flogahorse.jpg

['Ross]

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb160/Christ0pha/flogahorse.jpg

seems funny, but whats the other picture you posted?

EDIT: Fair call haha, but this thread has done nothing to change my opinion on the issue, however misrepresented it may be.

[dunk]

..having spent the weekend riding along country roads I can definately see the attraction in getting out of sydney.


You need to come visit me in Freo, best move I've made in regards to road riding. Dozens of different bunch rides every day to chose from, and most pass 100m from my door. I ride to the end of the street and wait for a bunch to roll past. Ride fifteen minutes to the south east an I'm on country roads, 40 minutes to the east and I'm in the hills.

Haven't had any problems with drivers here - except one guy in a new Mercedes who got a whole biddon of Endura through his window - but generally much, much better than Sydney....

[DaGonz]

You need to come visit me in Freo

yeah you can stop bragging now... I was just thinking over the weekend how nice a ride through kangaroo valley would be if it wasn't for all the idiots on the road.

Cheers
Gonz - who'd like a new bike later this year...