View Full Version : Do you think big gaps/drops have a place in racecourses?
What do you think about having big jumps/drops/gaps in racecourses? ie ones that not everyone can hit (and ya might hafta have a chicken line or something)? Is there a place for roadgaps in racing, or is it adding spectacularity (is that a word) to the detriment of going fast and/or being accessible to the beginners?
My thoughts are that there aren't enough dangerous obstacles on the course (the aforementioned drops/gaps etc). On the other hand, you wouldn't put a 6pack of dirtjumps in the middle of a DH course (unless it was a Red Bull event)....
Waddya think?
BTW... this input may have some effect on whether, and if so how, I have a crack at building a DH track at the end of the year.
frank-oi
22-05-2003, 09:19 PM
well i think that big jumps will always be in race tracks. but they are always going to have to put b lines around the jumps cause not everyone is going to just bust out and hit a huge dubble.
but what track builders have to do is make sure that the b line is slower . i remember at coffs a fews back there was a log jump gap thing that was right at the topp of the hill the so called b line was almost twice as fast as hitting the jump.and plus you were set up for the next section better as well.a year latter at the stste title they made the better chouce to make the b line more of a shicane so it was a slower and b not an advantage.
i think it would be better to have huge 50 to 100 m rock gardens that just totally take it out of you then to have one 3m rock drop and the rest of the track smooth single track.( but this also depends how your building the track and where) i mean yeah not everyone will hit the 3 m drop staright up. but they might be able to hammer the crap out of the rast of the track and make out time.
but a rock garden with heaps of lines ( some way hard some easy but slower) then they are all still in the one section but going it there own way.
6 pac in a dh no. road jumps yeas but huge gaps no. i don't know why but thats just what i like.
bring back massive ROCK GARDENS. but did they ever go away.
If its in a race, then chicken lines are essential for non-pros...but gaps and drops definetely. As long as they arent too big, remember the pro's hit everything faster then we ever imagined, so the obstacles have to be within reason. (i.e a 30 foot huck would be stupid in a race)
frank-oi
22-05-2003, 09:24 PM
yeah der.
Dowhill courses should incorporate bigger drops and jumps to make the courses harder for the pros. If race promoters built a "pro-only" section, this would probably work out a little better than having a "b" line. A "b" line would probably be faster than hitting a big drop, because the riders would have to control their speed before they ripped off of a 12 foot drop.
In addition to making a "pro-only" section in dowhill, this should also hold true for mountain-cross. If the the track builders put in a "pro-only" section, similiar to what they have at BMX races, this would give the pros an opportunity to hit the 40 foot doubles they are asking for, all the while, giving the "non-pros" an opportunity to ride a course that is at their level. It would be a win-win situation.
Yum Cha Racing
23-05-2003, 12:24 PM
i think that yeah big gaps, jumps and drops have a part to play in a good downhill course.......It's a good way to sort the men from the boys so to speak. The jump shouldn't be super dangerous like some 30 foot huck though and it should be relatively fast and maintain flow.
notice how norbas have a pro course and a beginner course?? 2 seperate tracks aswell not just chicken lines
mtbdh_girl
23-05-2003, 04:04 PM
I agree, there definatly needs to be bigger/harder gaps and drops in races, if only to encourage spectators who then encourage sponsers etc... however there does need to be a line for people to take who cannot do the stunts. it would also need to be restricted as to which classes can ride it.
Anakie last year did it well, with a section that novice riders were not allowed to do, and a chicken line that definatly took longer than trying the stunt... but yeah, gaps drps we defiatly need more of...
Pro only stuff doesn't strike me as such a good idea... some of the U17s and U19s classes have elite-level riders in em, who are as, if not more, willing and capable of doing crazy stuff than a number of the elite riders anyway. Ok, maybe restrict the Novice class, but some of the non-pro riders are capable of hitting big stuff... they may not be fast enough to race Elite, but I know some people are definitely crazy enough.
The elements of a good track being either extreme and therfore segregated (pro/novice) or being simple but do-able by everyone can be traced back to the design fundementals.
For example if the track is purpose built for races, don't put in doubles, replace them with a table top, so that the faster (pro) riders can bust it big and get their air time and keep speed and but the slower (novice) riders can just roll over the top.
Similarly the same can be said for drops, instead of building the drops as a ledge (cliff) style, build them more like a steep decent, so that the slower riders and still roll off it without freaking out whereas the faster riders can drop a vertice that is proportional to their speed.
The Ideas presented of the A,B&C lines for each section or even two seperate tracks are both good solutions, but when you have to build the track that is two or three more things you have to build, using two or three times the materials and two or three times the space, time, money and resources. The logistical liabilitys far outweigh the advantages.
As for the placing of large road gaps in courses, personally that is my favourite part of any track, the "feature obstacle" providing a challenge and a huge rush but its down to wether or not the people you build the track for can do it. Seriously impossible to keep everyone happy huh!
Any thoughts? :|
Ride_Guy
04-06-2003, 07:25 AM
It would be nice to see like options and lines in DH races, i like the idea of dub's on race runs and a few 6ft drops and stuff would be cool, even bigger if u had the resources to put different lines in, but obviosly still keep a chicken run open to give the less experienced riders a chance.
fastrider gus
04-06-2003, 04:00 PM
trafalgar is the madest big gap race... two huge road gaps that you are able to roll down if you arent up to it..
there is defenately a lack of hard stuff at races. ballarat was a good example of a DH track, realy challenging rock sections, rob roy was fun but not realy hard..
i want some challenge~!
The elements of a good track being either extreme and therfore segregated (pro/novice) or being simple but do-able by everyone can be traced back to the design fundementals.
For example if the track is purpose built for races, don't put in doubles, replace them with a table top, so that the faster (pro) riders can bust it big and get their air time and keep speed and but the slower (novice) riders can just roll over the top.
Similarly the same can be said for drops, instead of building the drops as a ledge (cliff) style, build them more like a steep decent, so that the slower riders and still roll off it without freaking out whereas the faster riders can drop a vertice that is proportional to their speed.
The Ideas presented of the A,B&C lines for each section or even two seperate tracks are both good solutions, but when you have to build the track that is two or three more things you have to build, using two or three times the materials and two or three times the space, time, money and resources. The logistical liabilitys far outweigh the advantages.
As for the placing of large road gaps in courses, personally that is my favourite part of any track, the "feature obstacle" providing a challenge and a huge rush but its down to wether or not the people you build the track for can do it. Seriously impossible to keep everyone happy huh!
Any thoughts? :|
smartest thing ever posted on this site!
lindsay
04-06-2003, 10:38 PM
Some of you guys are going a bit to far with the drops, jumps and dabs? Thats called a freeride event. Downhill is meant to test riders skills and speeds. Drops dont test skill, jumps do and rock gardens and corners do too. Too many jumps isn't good i think as it breaks up the flow to much.
I think the big/testing stuff needs to be in the race tracks because that is way most people race ->test themselves.
Pro-only sections are not good, put in an A and B line so the rider can choose which one they want to hit, as jumping skills are not only reserved for the A graders
Some of you guys are going a bit to far with the drops, jumps and dabs? Thats called a freeride event. Downhill is meant to test riders skills and speeds. Drops dont test skill, jumps do and rock gardens and corners do too. Too many jumps isn't good i think as it breaks up the flow to much.
Downhill RACING is about seeing who can get from the top to the bottom the fastest. Nothing else. Why can't it be slow + techy, or have lots of drops? Just because we're not doing warp 10 doesn't mean we're not going AS FAST AS WE CAN for a given situation...
lindsay
05-06-2003, 11:06 AM
I'm not saying dh racing can't be slow and techy i'm just saying that drops are stupid. Watch The Circus, thats what all DH tracks should be like. They are sooo much more fun to ride. :D
Turley
05-06-2003, 11:14 AM
I like the idea of drops but aslong as they have a decent tranny so they are more like a jump without a lip if you get my saying. Drops to flat and stuff, suck at speed cause it stuffs your flow up. Big jumps are fun but I am undecided whether they belong on a race track.. Good to have one as the last jump or after the finish line though for spectators and once you are no longer racing, you can enjoy a last jump.. if you still got the energy :)
And on your comment about not enough dangerous stuff on course. you don't have to have dangerous stuff to get hurt bad.. Just look at the current Aussie injury list :(
I'm not saying dh racing can't be slow and techy i'm just saying that drops are stupid. Watch The Circus, thats what all DH tracks should be like. They are sooo much more fun to ride. :D
Why are drops stupid? What makes rock gardens any better?
mtbdh_girl
05-06-2003, 04:30 PM
i just like a big mix of stuff. i hate the pedally shit though and i dont really like the fast fire road type stuff, boring (and i suck at it) the more technical, still fast stuff is all good.
i just like a big mix of stuff. i hate the pedally shit though and i dont really like the fast fire road type stuff, boring (and i suck at it) the more technical, still fast stuff is all good.
Have you ever been to Narby?
mtbdh_girl
05-06-2003, 05:14 PM
no
NO?! Damn... hafta head up there on the holidays then!
fastrider_ben
05-06-2003, 09:54 PM
definately.....
all the races in victoria are week cept for trafalga.
Bigger gaps and drops are needed to push the riders, all the race tracks seem to remain the same cept for a couple
SO WHERES THE PREGESSION???
fastrider gus
06-06-2003, 03:19 PM
HERE HERE!!!
how do you expect the lesser riders to gain in confedence/skill if the tracks are always made so they can ride it without a challenge.. you need to push yourself or you wont get anywhere.. you just have to know when to say no.
it makes the racing so much better for riders and spectators if there is a realy challenging section.
i agree with the thing about drops to flat.. they suck
keep it smooth.
lindsay
06-06-2003, 07:55 PM
Why are drops stupid? Well there is no skill needed, the technique you use for a 1m drop is no different than a 3m drop. They are also bad for the bike. Rock gradens require skill, picking lines, gapping sections etc.
Drops are for freeride events and now they arn't even welcome in those. Talking to Mike Atkins and Mike Shaw the designers of the Red Bull Ride. They both think drops are pointless and dangerous. The only reason there was the big drop in it this year is because Red Bull had a lot of power over the event as they provided the money. If it was up to the designers there wouldn't have been one.
Jared
06-06-2003, 08:16 PM
drops are gay, anyone can drop a big drop, all ya have to do is rol off and hold on, heyre good for some laugh value,eg, anything bender does (what a clown) , gaps are awesome tho, they'r fun, require skill, and are fun, but im not talkin those stupid drop/huck gaps done by bender onceagain ht you see on vids, ifya gonna have drops they need to gpout as well,not just go straight down to flat or little runout, hat shits gay (yes thats right, GAY!!!!)
curtisrider
07-06-2003, 01:07 AM
i agree,
if you are going to have drops in radecources they should cover a distance to challenge the rider. Say if you have a 8ft drop make it you have to clear a 12 foot gap with it. it has to be able to be hit fast and present a challenge to the rider
fastrider gus
07-06-2003, 10:20 AM
you guys are all crazy.... if the drop is realy harsh, then i agree with you, its stupid and pointless.. but if you have a 20ft drop onto a smooth tranny, how the hell can that be gay??? there are some people that only do drops because they dont have any technical skill, but i love to do everything, but nothing gives you that rush of satisfaction and adrenaline as nailing a biiig ass drop..
drops defenately have a place in mountain biking..
id say they have a place, but not the roll up slow and drop ones. They need to have a bit of speed about them, even into a nice transition,. So long as its challenging. But i spose that would be more of a gap then a drop.
As long as it flows and challenges.
Adam
They all have their place in DH to point, but when there is such a small mtb scene in aus you can not make all the tracks to difficult otherwise you stand the risk of putting of the novice riders and therefore we would have no one coming through the ranks and its in everyones best interests to have more people riding and racing.
Having two tracks isnt an option, chicken lines are a good option especially when much slower.
should dh tracks be hard to ride, no. They should be hard to ride fast!!!
Sure there should be sections that challenge but you dont want the whole course to scare the shit out of someone in their first race.
Thats what I think anyways :?
They all have their place in DH to point, but when there is such a small mtb scene in aus you can not make all the tracks to difficult otherwise you stand the risk of putting of the novice riders and therefore we would have no one coming through the ranks and its in everyones best interests to have more people riding and racing.
Having two tracks isnt an option, chicken lines are a good option especially when much slower.
should dh tracks be hard to ride, no. They should be hard to ride fast!!!
Sure there should be sections that challenge but you dont want the whole course to scare the shit out of someone in their first race.
Thats what I think anyways :?
I sorta agree, but I reckon SOME dh courses are already way too opened up and boring. Eildon wasn't that great a racetrack because it had too much slow, techy stuff, but tracks like Granton have NONE of that techy, off-camber, rocky stuff at all.
Also, I reckon huge launches tend to suck, because very very rarely do they have a good landing.... a 5 degree slope does not count as a good landing.
Yeah agreed on Granton and eildon although I wouldnt mind going back to eildon again I think you had to be right on it to get anything out of it and that weekend I really sucked, might of had something to do with no rear brakes!!!.
Graton was loads of fun, but not hard at all.
The best track of all time, that i have ridden would have to be the Big Hill down hill, it rocked had everything and was 10 mins long!
Yeah agreed on Granton and eildon although I wouldnt mind going back to eildon again I think you had to be right on it to get anything out of it and that weekend I really sucked, might of had something to do with no rear brakes!!!.
Graton was loads of fun, but not hard at all.
The best track of all time, that i have ridden would have to be the Big Hill down hill, it rocked had everything and was 10 mins long!
Eildon is fun in that it punishes EVERY mistake you make... I reckon that track teaches you a lot. Granton, well, the long track is more of an XC course than a DH course (uphill sections?!), the short track is better but still lacks much punch.
Some good posts here
Personally I like a flowing course that has high speed corners and as many natural features as possible.Like riding a narly bush walking track.
I don't like a BMX or freeride style course that has to be riden perfectly or riden around.
Don't see chicken lines in Motocross the good guys just go faster and skip over more of the bumps/jumps.
They have better lines at higher speed.
The fastest guy is the best guy simple.
I hate show ponies and don't ride for spectators.
It should be fun to ride not dangerous just for the sake of it.
I can add danger with speed.
lupine128
11-06-2003, 01:12 AM
haven't raced in years, but when i did, i really enjoyed the more technical courses.
i think it was one of the old kerwongbah tracks that was short, like 2mins long, but felt longer cause of the way it was layed out.
as far as huge road gaps go, if you can't make the gap it just turns into a smallish drop, followed by a single right? if you make it, you are quicker, if you don't, your slower. i did like the idea of creek crossings/water crossings like they had in vancouver when i was there. nothing changes your perspective on speed like hitting foot deep water flat out, thn haveing to brake for a sharp corner. features also don't have to be huge to look and feel really daunting during a race either. i know of one track iin B.C. that funnels the riders into a short tunnel. scares the crap outta you the first time you race it, cause it was a big ass concrete tubemounted midway round a blind bend. you went in really quickand used the curve of the pipe to slingshot you out the end. n\by the end of the day guys were coming out of it almost horrizontal with a look of terror on their faces. it was awesome to ride, perfectly safe, and looked cool for the punters.
haven't raced in years, but when i did, i really enjoyed the more technical courses.
i think it was one of the old kerwongbah tracks that was short, like 2mins long, but felt longer cause of the way it was layed out.
as far as huge road gaps go, if you can't make the gap it just turns into a smallish drop, followed by a single right? if you make it, you are quicker, if you don't, your slower. i did like the idea of creek crossings/water crossings like they had in vancouver when i was there. nothing changes your perspective on speed like hitting foot deep water flat out, thn haveing to brake for a sharp corner. features also don't have to be huge to look and feel really daunting during a race either. i know of one track iin B.C. that funnels the riders into a short tunnel. scares the crap outta you the first time you race it, cause it was a big ass concrete tubemounted midway round a blind bend. you went in really quickand used the curve of the pipe to slingshot you out the end. n\by the end of the day guys were coming out of it almost horrizontal with a look of terror on their faces. it was awesome to ride, perfectly safe, and looked cool for the punters.
Um... if ya don't make a roadgap, it's usually more like a 8ft+ drop to flat followed by a swift launch down the landing onto your head ;)
mtbdh_girl
11-06-2003, 05:53 PM
:idea: just a quick point- for races to happen...you need sponsors...for sponsors to get on board...you need spectators to turn up...for spectators to turn up...you need to give them a reason...
:idea: just a quick point- for races to happen...you need sponsors...for sponsors to get on board...you need spectators to turn up...for spectators to turn up...you need to give them a reason...
To be able to give them a reason, you need sponsors... :arrow: :idea: :?: :idea: :arrow: :!: :?: :wink: :arrow: :idea: :?: :idea: :!: :arrow: :!:
lupine128
13-06-2003, 04:06 PM
the thing thats going off the most back home right now are small local untimed races. you pay $5 (that covers someone running a shuttle if they can be bothered, or buying bulk soda), turn up and just hammer. clubs are making like $200 a time, and it costs them almost nothing.
what it really does is let people who wouldn't normaly go and race, have a go, see what it's about and just hang out for the day bombing the run.
the runs are held at local DH tracks, and theres no pressure to perform, so everyone is getting into it. the pros go off and gumbies likke me get to crash to the bottom and then watch and see how it's done. without feeling like you have lost out if you don't pull a clean run.
this gets more people into the sport, more people more exposure, more exposure more money later on.
just remember to make everyone, no moatter what there skill level feel welcome.
kalem
13-06-2003, 04:56 PM
the thing thats going off the most back home right now are small local untimed races. you pay $5 (that covers someone running a shuttle if they can be bothered, or buying bulk soda), turn up and just hammer. clubs are making like $200 a time, and it costs them almost nothing.
what it really does is let people who wouldn't normaly go and race, have a go, see what it's about and just hang out for the day bombing the run.
the runs are held at local DH tracks, and theres no pressure to perform, so everyone is getting into it. the pros go off and gumbies likke me get to crash to the bottom and then watch and see how it's done. without feeling like you have lost out if you don't pull a clean run.
this gets more people into the sport, more people more exposure, more exposure more money later on.
just remember to make everyone, no moatter what there skill level feel welcome.
thats really how i treat races anyway, you pay a bit of money for a ride to the top and you ride with a whole bunch of people... I'm not really there to compete, i'm interested how i go yeah, but i rock up in jeans and a t-shirt if ya get my drift...
Jaanos
13-06-2003, 06:24 PM
The elements of a good track being either extreme and therfore segregated (pro/novice) or being simple but do-able by everyone can be traced back to the design fundementals.
For example if the track is purpose built for races, don't put in doubles, replace them with a table top, so that the faster (pro) riders can bust it big and get their air time and keep speed and but the slower (novice) riders can just roll over the top.
Similarly the same can be said for drops, instead of building the drops as a ledge (cliff) style, build them more like a steep decent, so that the slower riders and still roll off it without freaking out whereas the faster riders can drop a vertice that is proportional to their speed.
The Ideas presented of the A,B&C lines for each section or even two seperate tracks are both good solutions, but when you have to build the track that is two or three more things you have to build, using two or three times the materials and two or three times the space, time, money and resources. The logistical liabilitys far outweigh the advantages.
As for the placing of large road gaps in courses, personally that is my favourite part of any track, the "feature obstacle" providing a challenge and a huge rush but its down to wether or not the people you build the track for can do it. Seriously impossible to keep everyone happy huh!
Any thoughts? :|
The amount of dirt and labour that goes into making a 30ft double into a table top would way ofset the advantages gained by not having to make a 'b' line. I think table tops are great for race tracks because everyone can hit them, but short of getting earthmoving equipment in, its just not gunna happen. :?
looseunit
17-06-2003, 01:24 PM
Here in SA nearly all of the races have a drop to flat or good sized road gap all with chicken lines. This gives mean that just about the whole course can be ridden by just about anyone. Saying that the chicken lines are slower and harder to ride at speed and at several race last year some of experts and spot rider were rider chiken lines and somtimes winning. Eg last year there was a big 7f drop, Steve Marsh found a far quicker line thru the chiken line by bunny hopping a tree stump and he ended up winning. Doing this makes racing more interesting because everbody is looking for the fastest line regaless of the line. What steve did was find a line that nobody eles was looking at and he had the skill to ride it. He had to do this because his knee still does not hold up to big drops, but now everybody watchs steve lines even more than in the past. A good rider will always beat a bady skilled rider with balls, regardless of the course.
(i.e a 30 foot huck would be stupid in a race)
no it wouldnt!!! http://bb.nsmb.com/newforum/images/smilies/banana_hitit.gif
:P
duncan^kona
24-06-2003, 12:28 AM
i think it would be better to have huge 50 to 100 m rock gardens that just totally take it out of you then to have one 3m rock drop and the rest of the track smooth single track.( but this also depends how your building the track and where) i mean yeah not everyone will hit the 3 m drop staright up. but they might be able to hammer the crap out of the rast of the track and make out time.
good idea, but i think that maybe at that 3m drop, they should have a b-line of like north shore or something that goes into a bit of a detour to slow things up... yeh??
toodles
24-06-2003, 09:31 AM
Some good posts here
Personally I like a flowing course that has high speed corners and as many natural features as possible.Like riding a narly bush walking track.
I don't like a BMX or freeride style course that has to be riden perfectly or riden around.
Don't see chicken lines in Motocross the good guys just go faster and skip over more of the bumps/jumps.
They have better lines at higher speed.
The fastest guy is the best guy simple.
I hate show ponies and don't ride for spectators.
It should be fun to ride not dangerous just for the sake of it.
I can add danger with speed.
Good point dude. At the moment I've nearly stopped racing due to my finacial siutation (ie broke) but it was getting a bit dodgy anyway. A lot of the courses are made by A grade riders for A grade riders. If you look at doubles, they're easier to take at speed than slower. Who's going the fastest? If fast riders want harder courses then space doubles far enough apart that it's possible for lame jumpers (me) to ride them as two singles and top riders have to make the extra effort to clear them. European styles courses where they're about 2-3 metres wide with a mixture of lines are the best bet. They let fast, confident riders save time by gapping rocks and stuff while the rest can pick there way through. Running the bunting up and over crazy sections and leaving riders no alternate choices (or chicken lines that are completely weak and slow) will just discourage up and comers. Chicken lines don't need to be foot paths - just a smaller version of the faster line. And the next ex-BMX star that puts a rocket jump into a DH course....
i like the idea
jumps are the best parts of the ride and the bigger the better
fastrider gus
29-07-2003, 08:19 PM
its shit when the track is so easy that anyone can go fast on it though..
at robroy Dh the track was prety damn easy (farkin fun though!) i mean, it should have something trickey thrown in to make it a bit of a challenge..
jeeze im 16 and i ride a HT.. i placed about 12th in elite!!
i think maybe a good gap would be better than a sheer huck.. not just a big double though.. roadgaps are the best..
sich nich
31-07-2003, 09:15 PM
i just did the ourimbah state round
the first section is as follows:
corner coner
shore style bridge to about 5' then ramps down steep for chickens, also has an outside chicken line
drops about 6' to where u land, straight into a steep ass bumpy berm where guys were stacking big
another corner then steep rocks straight onto a pallet shaped bridge to road gap (6'high, 10 or so foot long) flat as landing, but not as flat as road,
straight into eventually ruined berm. farkin hard on bikes and tricky for rider
another corner back down the hill, 3 or 4 pedal strokes,
road gap (dirt kicker, about 7-8' high from the road, end up being 10 foot above the road, easy 25 foot long, sweet fast runout, good trannie for speed).
this whole section took approx 20 seconds to do.
this was definatley fun and made for awesome fotos.
the chicken lines were definatley longer in time and still provided moderate challenge for the chicken riders.
it was a really good race (except for mum getting wiped out)
no one complained about the gaps, everyone thought they were great, to do or watch.
gaps definately have a place in DH courses
freerider215
01-08-2003, 04:18 AM
it all depends on the natural terrain. if there are 4,5,6 ft. drops and they are off natural rocks (chances are being a DOWNHILL race there will be a tranny) then cool, but building drops just for the sake of a drop is stupid. i mean then complaining about the course would be like complaining about the weather. it's all natural as it should be. there should always be alternate routes, that's what makes a great racer, picking the right lines. any natural obstacles that challenge riders are smack on. at speed everything becomes easier, speed and gravity are our friends. slow and techy and fast are only terms based on a riders ability. look at say Yard Sale at Mt. Snow, most riders would look at it and say it is slow and techy but in reality the best way to get through it is speed, speed, speed. let the suspension do it's job and just ride it. races have classes for a reason and if you ride with in your class and ability then you should be able to keep up with your peers. courses should always challenge riders with out killing them. putting stuff in for the spectacle of is stupid. the last thing i want to see is pre-fab race coures then you might as well be having them at indoor stadiums.
hi, yeah i would agree that the SA races are heaps good, i love the big stuff they put in, it makes you ride harder! there was a road gap at the last race (something i wouldnt normally do!) but cause i saw so many people hitting it i decided to hit it, first time it wasnt too bad even though i landed on the road. so the next time i hit i went quicker and cleared it! whoo it was great! go the big stuff, it makes better! now at the track i ride we are builing some freaky shite (harder than the race courses). hmm drops can be a great skill tester and i love to hit them!
EXTREAM
Drops are GAY?? Really?
If some people like riding off a sweet drop to a steep tranny, then why do you speed racer dudes hack on it? I think it's gay that there are people out there who think that DH racing is all there is to riding, and feel the need to comment that "freeriding" or "hucking" or whatever is crap.
Go spend a day in Kelowna without a stopwatch and tell me if you have a good time or not. Isn't riding supposed to be about having fun, and not about what part of it is "gay" and what part of it is worthy of your holiness. Or have you lost sight of what got you into it in the first place?
As for gaps in racecourses, I'd like to see a few course designers hit up Dirt Mechant in Whistler for some ideas on making jumps that are like gaps without the consequences. Not making it will slow you down heaps, but won't kill you.
Just 2c from a rider who likes racing as well as riding.
Steve
01-08-2003, 02:02 PM
i like big gaps.
bazza
01-08-2003, 02:22 PM
our tech course is pretty hard. its gone for racing now though. stupid liability. it had a huge ass tech rock garden with nooooo chicken lines at all. it was hardcore. i couldnt race cause i messed myself up on it. sorry if this is off topic but i was talking about chikcen line aspect.
its shit when the track is so easy that anyone can go fast on it though..
at robroy Dh the track was prety damn easy (farkin fun though!) i mean, it should have something trickey thrown in to make it a bit of a challenge..
jeeze im 16 and i ride a HT.. i placed about 12th in elite!!
i think maybe a good gap would be better than a sheer huck.. not just a big double though.. roadgaps are the best..
yea, i agree. Rob Roy was heaps of fun, but a big gap, amybe across one of the roads would really have made it awesome and would seperate the more experienced riders from the novices. But to make it fair, the b lines round the gap would have to be like a chicane or something.
drops and gaps and juumps wot eva are almost essential to racing for the already sad face of australias DH especcialy state rounds.
its not only meant to make the the course more fun for most DH racers but through entertainment to attract spectators which i reckon we need more of.
thats my view any way.
fastrider gus
02-08-2003, 07:07 PM
its shit when the track is so easy that anyone can go fast on it though..
at robroy Dh the track was prety damn easy (farkin fun though!) i mean, it should have something trickey thrown in to make it a bit of a challenge..
jeeze im 16 and i ride a HT.. i placed about 12th in elite!!
i think maybe a good gap would be better than a sheer huck.. not just a big double though.. roadgaps are the best..
yea, i agree. Rob Roy was heaps of fun, but a big gap, amybe across one of the roads would really have made it awesome and would seperate the more experienced riders from the novices. But to make it fair, the b lines round the gap would have to be like a chicane or something.
yea exactly.. maybe off that last road crossing with the little lip at the bottom, the lip should be at the top.
its shit when the track is so easy that anyone can go fast on it though..
at robroy Dh the track was prety damn easy (farkin fun though!) i mean, it should have something trickey thrown in to make it a bit of a challenge..
jeeze im 16 and i ride a HT.. i placed about 12th in elite!!
i think maybe a good gap would be better than a sheer huck.. not just a big double though.. roadgaps are the best..
yea, i agree. Rob Roy was heaps of fun, but a big gap, amybe across one of the roads would really have made it awesome and would seperate the more experienced riders from the novices. But to make it fair, the b lines round the gap would have to be like a chicane or something.
yea exactly.. maybe off that last road crossing with the little lip at the bottom, the lip should be at the top.
Rumour has it that next race there WILL be a lip up the top there...
Hmmm big gaps and big drops......
Can't do them. Personally I couldn't care less about them. But all credit to anyone who does do them.
But I have noticed when we put big stuff in our local races that the number of racers drop a whole lot. Seems a lot of people just have too much pride to say they don't wanna do the gap so they'll do the chicken line!
Kreaky
12-08-2003, 08:43 PM
you gotta have big stuff in a race course to make it challenging but dont make eveything big. i remeber my first race and it was like going down a steep windy offroad track. put small stuff that is easy but fun.
there can be big stuff in, aslong as there's the old faithful chicken line!
atxjohn
03-09-2003, 12:46 PM
"drops require no skill all you have to do is ride off"
they do require a certin amount of skill and a large amount of balls.... cause if u got no skills ure not gonna land em.... i've seen examples of it a mate of mine was new to riding with not much skill he trieed a 15fter and crashed hard thats just one example of how droppin does require skills and lots of BALLZ
andrewroast
03-09-2003, 03:23 PM
The elements of a good track being either extreme and therfore segregated (pro/novice) or being simple but do-able by everyone can be traced back to the design fundementals.
For example if the track is purpose built for races, don't put in doubles, replace them with a table top, so that the faster (pro) riders can bust it big and get their air time and keep speed and but the slower (novice) riders can just roll over the top.
Similarly the same can be said for drops, instead of building the drops as a ledge (cliff) style, build them more like a steep decent, so that the slower riders and still roll off it without freaking out whereas the faster riders can drop a vertice that is proportional to their speed.
The Ideas presented of the A,B&C lines for each section or even two seperate tracks are both good solutions, but when you have to build the track that is two or three more things you have to build, using two or three times the materials and two or three times the space, time, money and resources. The logistical liabilitys far outweigh the advantages.
As for the placing of large road gaps in courses, personally that is my favourite part of any track, the "feature obstacle" providing a challenge and a huge rush but its down to wether or not the people you build the track for can do it. Seriously impossible to keep everyone happy huh!
how much time did that take ya
crazy
brad_ac2
12-09-2003, 05:34 PM
i reckon that you can have jumps, but not drops in a race course. gaps are ok as you will need speed, but straight-down drops will just slow u down. simo is also right about saying that there needs to be the "chicken line".
brad_ac2
12-09-2003, 05:34 PM
i reckon that you can have jumps, but not drops in a race course. gaps are ok as you will need speed, but straight-down drops will just slow u down. simo is also right about saying that there needs to be the "chicken line".
ricky lee
12-09-2003, 07:15 PM
u can have anything as long as the track keeps flowing and your not always on the bracks
ricky lee
12-09-2003, 07:15 PM
u can have anything as long as the track keeps flowing and your not always on the bracks
Darkness
12-09-2003, 09:51 PM
ya gotta have these in DH courses because it challenges the riders. I dont know about you other racers but i wouldnt like a course without some sort of road gap or drop not in it. it makes the track boring if they arent in there.thats just my opinion.
Darkness
12-09-2003, 09:51 PM
ya gotta have these in DH courses because it challenges the riders. I dont know about you other racers but i wouldnt like a course without some sort of road gap or drop not in it. it makes the track boring if they arent in there.thats just my opinion.
brad_ac2
13-09-2003, 11:08 AM
yeah, maybe a road gap or a huge jump at the bottom, like on -red bull ride 2-
brad_ac2
13-09-2003, 11:08 AM
yeah, maybe a road gap or a huge jump at the bottom, like on -red bull ride 2-
TREEHUGGER
06-10-2003, 06:16 PM
no one is going to win this argument regarding drops, hucks, roadgaps, rock sections a,b,c lines, fireroad whateva! guys I to have my own personal opinions on the amount of bullshite that goes into every downhill race.
I like fireroad, rockgardens small dropoffs & certain made jumps (no kickers) I only like courses that flow, but I would prefer to be averaging 60kph with top speed upto & over 100kph but it ain't gonna happen, because everyone is becoming a farkin looney. U will never appease the wide variety of riders that are out there to what they want in a race course because what I may want is something that another person may detest!
I also don't like the attitude of some rider's that believe they are & always will be better than someone else who has less skill than they do. You would think these guys who are suppose to be the future of mountain biking would be helping those who are not as confident to pull out all the stops & show the less experienced, pointers & tips to help gain confidence so they can give the pro's something to race for. The more experience they're willing to share, will give them better riders to compete with.(as the saying goes: YOU SCRATCH MY BACK & I'LL SCRATCH YOURS).
:evil:
Daver
06-10-2003, 07:54 PM
no one is going to win this argument regarding drops, hucks, roadgaps, rock sections a,b,c lines, fireroad whateva! guys I to have my own personal opinions on the amount of bullshite that goes into every downhill race.
I like fireroad, rockgardens small dropoffs & certain made jumps (no kickers) I only like courses that flow, but I would prefer to be averaging 60kph with top speed upto & over 100kph but it ain't gonna happen, because everyone is becoming a farkin looney. U will never appease the wide variety of riders that are out there to what they want in a race course because what I may want is something that another person may detest!
I also don't like the attitude of some rider's that believe they are & always will be better than someone else who has less skill than they do. You would think these guys who are suppose to be the future of mountain biking would be helping those who are not as confident to pull out all the stops & show the less experienced, pointers & tips to help gain confidence so they can give the pro's something to race for. The more experience they're willing to share, will give them better riders to compete with.(as the saying goes: YOU SCRATCH MY BACK & I'LL SCRATCH YOURS).
:evil:
I agree.
I think one main track would be ideal, a track having say, 20 + different lines, with long rock gardens and jumps that allow riders to launch 2 or 50 foot to a smooth slope. But, with the height of our hills it's not possible.
A DH track should be able to test all riders skills, and if this is the case, What is wrong with drops on a race track? If the drops were 10+ foot with a simular landing, it would test the pro's, but leave Novice riders up shit creek.
Drops do have a place, but they must be made roll-able for less experiencd or skilled riders. True with jumps- tabletops allow the better riders to try them and the novice riders to roll them.
This is what race courses need.
samlu
06-10-2003, 08:05 PM
SAm hills no footer drop required a fair bit of skill same as johnny W's transfer. not all drops are the same
Dhfactory
14-10-2003, 08:53 AM
As everyone has been saying they should have some drops/gaps etc.
but then have B lines for the "girls",
I think that a downhill course should have some big drops that only some of the riders will do, it mixes it up. The one problem with lots of dh courses is that they are too flat, and have no decent drops, jumps, gaps.
tom the 2nd
16-10-2003, 09:27 PM
i think that there should be big drops and gaps in racecourses but have another way around that is slower if they can't do it. This would make people push them selves to do them.
SAm hills no footer drop required a fair bit of skill same as johnny W's transfer. not all drops are the same
That's not a "drop", that's a forty foot stepdown. Slightly different to rolling over the edge of a cliff.
MUNGUS
16-10-2003, 10:20 PM
theres not a whole lot of difference
theres not a whole lot of difference
Except with one you're launching from a lip to a landing with a long way in between, and the other you're pulling up on the front wheel at low speed, waiting half a second, then landing... you're comparing jumps to drops here.
finny_447
19-10-2003, 09:41 PM
I don't like drops to much but thats probley because I just started but they really damage the frame thats why I avoid doing them
vulture
19-10-2003, 10:02 PM
the laws of physics state that it takes exactly the same time for a rider to travel from lip to landing, regardless of whether the drop is straight down or over a 40ft gap.
Physics doesn't define a riders confidence or skill. Plus if you want to get technical, what about the speed difference from dropping to flat to dropping to gapping to a transition? Outright statements like yours are somewhat irrelevant.
the laws of physics state that it takes exactly the same time for a rider to travel from lip to landing, regardless of whether the drop is straight down or over a 40ft gap.
They also state that rolling slowly off the lip and yanking on the bars will not clear your typical 40ft gap. Oh, and that your TOTAL velocity over a 40ft gap is much higher, hence hitting the ground at an unfavourable angle = more pain.
vulture
20-10-2003, 01:17 PM
sorry, i was just trying to be friendly
Woodsie
20-10-2003, 01:26 PM
Why are drops stupid? Well there is no skill needed, the technique you use for a 1m drop is no different than a 3m drop.
There is definitely some skill needed, even if not a lot. I keep proving this whenever I nose dive off a drop and eat dirt. :oops:
The technique between a 1m drop and a 3m drop is different.
A 1m drop you can hold your weight as if it's just riding on a flat surface, on a 3m drop you actually hace to absorb the impact a bit more. That's from a hardtail perspective at least, I guess it depends how much of the riding you let the bike do.
big drops are ok, you can always take the soft option and not ride
primeposition
09-11-2003, 07:59 PM
jumps yeah but not big drops like 20-30 foot cus there is a difference in skiil level in alot of races and if only one guy can do the drop then theat is pretty gay
but jumps yeah cus jumps can be only so big
primeposition
09-11-2003, 08:00 PM
depends what kind of race
oneoftheboys
19-11-2003, 12:02 AM
here here lindsay... drops are gay an wreck your ride esspecially ones like in the adelaide nat round 1.. but on the other hand i dont mind gaps but keep them relevent to the speed you would carry into that section, something you dont need to sprint into but more like if you hold the corner speed before it one or two cranks an your over,, that what i like, meaning the faster the section the bigger the gap,,, not more sprint room
wendel
19-11-2003, 12:54 AM
drops and gaps hav there place, at the the champs at traf (delhuntie park) they are huge drops, 8 meter - 15 meter step downs, they flow well, they aint just put there coz the owner wanted 2 make a obsticle, they are like the biggest thing of teh track, drops and gaps that make u lose momentum and slow u down / unbalence u are not good for race courses, so go 2 traf and ride a wicked track!
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