New frame build up

[Gronk]

So I'm thinking of getting a stock frame and building it up from parts off bikes I have here and in time spending the big dollars on trials specific stuff (eg rear hub, cranks etc) as I need/can afford it. I'm still happily plodding along on the Rhino mod, but am also looking for a new project :)

biketrialsaustralia.com has a nice echo pure for $395, or would it be worth coughing up the extra $100 and going for the Control? There is also a woodman frame on pinkbike for Can$250 + postage... any thoughts on which is the best bang for the buck?

Also I was going to use tthe rhinolite rim from my stp 1 on the rear. Does anyone know if you can just grind the black paint off the walls and run v's on it? The walls look like they can use them, but I want to be sure before I go gettin' the grinder out and going nuts on it.

Thanks!

[dylanm]

If the walls of the rim are straight, ie the rim isnt shaped like a semi circle, chances are you can grind it. Don't quote me on that particular rim though.. Although, if your going to be spending some money on a new hub, get a good one, and you might as well throw on a trials rim. Zhi and Echo rims are 48mm wide, and cost around $50 each, pretty cheap. I think www.trialshive.com sells echo pures for $295, check them out too. As far as the frame is concerned, for a beginner, and even for good trials riders, the pure's seem to be quite good. I think the difference between the pure and the control is the metal quality, someone correct me?

Edit: if you want similar geometry, but something different, you can try out a zhi z1 or z2, theyr all around $400, and come in more colours than just polished aluminium.

[Gronk]

Thanks for the link there dylan... I was just browsing through the site and wow are they cheap! Are they quoting Aussie dollars???

Anyway, assuming they are, I definitely wanna get some stuff through them, but they have no purchasing interface on their website, and only email contact. Is there a phone number I can call them on directly???

Thanks

[gbowen444]

So I'm thinking of getting a stock frame and building it up from parts off bikes I have here and in time spending the big dollars on trials specific stuff (eg rear hub, cranks etc) as I need/can afford it. I'm still happily plodding along on the Rhino mod, but am also looking for a new project :)

biketrialsaustralia.com has a nice echo pure for $395, or would it be worth coughing up the extra $100 and going for the Control? There is also a woodman frame on pinkbike for Can$250 + postage... any thoughts on which is the best bang for the buck?

Also I was going to use tthe rhinolite rim from my stp 1 on the rear. Does anyone know if you can just grind the black paint off the walls and run v's on it? The walls look like they can use them, but I want to be sure before I go gettin' the grinder out and going nuts on it.

Thanks!

You can pick up a pure from www.trialshive.com for $299 or a control for $399. Also they sometimes have some pretty cheap fully built bikes for sale. They are in Perth so local prices and shipping apply. Either that or Adam at CBD in sydney had some fully built pures for sal, but i am not sure if he is getting more.

The difference between the control and pure is not great geometry wise (shorter stays and available in short and long on the control) but the control is stronger aluminium and has a built in booster. I have a control and love it.

Moving your stuff across from you XC bike is a good way of getting started but I am not sure if the rynolite rim is rim brake compatible. Check the Sun rims site.

Spend the most money on the frame and rear wheel first.

[Gronk]

Thanks, all appreciated info there. So you're saying the Control frame has the shorter stays? Plus do you think the Control is worth the extra $100?

The rhyno rim has a square side-wall and certainly looks like it could run v's. But then again trialshive's prices are cheap enough to consider just buying a wheel as well.

[dylanm]

Again, i think you'd get better/more answers if you posted on observedtrials.net, maybe in the beginners section? the thing about rims is, i'm assuming yours is quite narrow, which will make it more difficult to get good grip and balance, and take larger sized tires. A wider trials rim is pretty cheap, as you've noticed. But if you're saving money and don't really care about the rim, then by all means grind it up. It will do wonders. All those prices are in AUD. I don't know about a phone number, but i ordered just through email and bank deposit, shipping for most of a bike ended up being about $70. If you are going to spend the $400 for a control, don't forget that the rest of deng's quality bikes are around that price range as well, ie the adamant a1, czar, gu, zoo, check them all out on trialshive, as well as the other brand, zhi. Not saying that they are all better than the control, the control is probably one of the best of that list anyway, but just for variety.

Have a look at www.echobike.com for some details, but there's some pretty poor english there.

[moyseybike]

Just shoot trialshive an email, he's great to deal with and quick to respond. Remember that all the frames mentioned so far have 4 bolt magura mounts so get some zhi v adaptors while your at it. Or pm for a price on new rear magura, fixed echo hub on DX-32, czar cranks w/tensile FFW etc. I've got lots of new bits off a complete zhi i bought.

[Gronk]

Thanks Mosey, I think I'm going to have to first sell some bikes I have here already... I really can't justify having this many bikes, with so few riding skills.

Anyhoo I did end up sending trialshive an email, but they are yet to respond. Probly just as well until I figure out what the heck I want to actually do first. After riding the mod on sunday I'm thinking maybe I want to do that up instead, or do I want a stock AND a mod, or I have only been riding about 2 months and what the hell am I looking for a second bike already for?!

Unfortunately none of the bikes I have for sale here are getting any interest whatsoever, so none of this may happen for a while... but if/when it does, we can definitely talk parts Mosey.

[derek_gruending]

Have you found a frame yet? I have a damn near new Adamant A1 frame with an oversized ECHO green headset, KMC Kool chain and spair mech hanger that I'll sell ya.:cool:

[donkay]

well, find out what you'd like to ride....a stock or a mod....

I originally started on a Rhino mod myself...then upgraded to stock (the fact that EVERYONE was riding one....even on vid's and such....so i followed) after numerous upgrades and a stock to another stock and such....it got really really costy (you'd have to spend BIG to make it right) in the end I got it right...

But as soon as i built up a mod again just for the heck of it with cheapie Rhino parts oh my god....i just loved it soo much and wondered why i left mod! Funny thing is....i'm probably only a bit better than what i am since i've had the rhino (Riding stock just completely changed my style, it's like learning all over again)

But, to many people, it's a success for a switch to mod to stock

Back to the topic, the Pure and Control are both great bang for the buck in quality, but i'd personally would spend a bit more for the Control the fact that they have the built in booster (More rigidity) and little tweaks...but again, there's NOTHING wrong in the Pure at all as i used to own that as well (older gen)...unbreakable those things

(Derek there seems to be offering an Adamant A1, sounds like a great deal, i used to own an A1 as well, has the shortest chainstays around! balancing on the backwheel is hop-less)

[Gronk]

Have you found a frame yet? I have a damn near new Adamant A1 frame with an oversized ECHO green headset, KMC Kool chain and spair mech hanger that I'll sell ya.:cool:

Thanks derek, but don't those frames have the super high BB? I like the echo frames as they aren't too high 15-20ish mm and I get the feeling that's better for a newbie.

[Gronk]

Donkay, can I ask how tall you are? I'm 6' and sometimes feel the Rhino is a touch small... it has the stock stem on it and thought maybe a longer one would help.

I do like riding the mods, just because they are so maneuverable, when I ride a regular bike now they feel like buses! So maybe mod is the way to go... unfortunately there are pretty much no other trials riders around so I can't test any out.

Just too many decisions to make.

[donkay]

I'm about 5foot 7

and yes, with the ORIGINAL Rhino setup, they are a tad cramped, that's why like many others (and i did) changed the bar/stem setup to a Monty X-Lite combo the fact that they're bit lower...and much longer = much better.
You can pick the bar combo at www.Monty.com.au for like $150 from Steve
(Even on my current mod i'm running the EXACT same bar/stem combo as I absolutley love it, very comfortable feel)

Here's an image of my Rhino's last setup before it was sold
http://www.mtbdirt.com.au/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/11888/normal_IMGP0998.JPG

Basically the 'trick' to ride mod bikes is....bend your knees and arms (it'll keep your balance point lower and closer to the bike) rather than looking like a giant erection if that makes sense?

Here's an action shot of me back in the day with the Rhino (photo taken JUST before landing on the block, i absolutley love this shot!)
http://www.mtbdirt.com.au/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/11888/normal_P1010087.JPG
Larger image here...
http://www.mtbdirt.com.au/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/11888/P1010087.JPG

[Gronk]

Thanks Donkay, I will definitely look into changing the Rhino's set up. Nice pics too by the way! Considering there is no way I can do the move you are pulling off in that photo makes me realise it's definitely too early to be looking for a new frame/bike heheh.

Thanks for the tips too, will try to stay less erect :D

[donkay]

Bored, but here are GREAT examples of riding posture/positions

Erection
http://www.observedtrials.net/otn3/Don_Drop.jpg

Perfect (My current bike)
http://www.observedtrials.net/otn3/Non erect.jpg

See the difference and how 'comfortable' it looks? Even by just seeing it, it looks right as well

[Gronk]

Yeah I can't do the stuff you're doing on thise pics... hell today I couldn't even get on the back wheel! Even with Ryan Leech's dvd it is hard to progress on your own, especially the mental side of things. When you see a move done and think yeah I wanna do that, then when you get on the bike and your brain simply says no... at least if I had other ppl to give me pointers it would make life easier, maybe.

Anyway nice pics again, when I finally learn something photo-worthy I'll post it up hehe

[dylanm]

I learnt to hop before i got my trials bike. I wasn't that good, and i could only manage about 5 or 6 before i lost balance. as long as you can pivot and balance on whatever you're using atm, you'll be fine for a while. The thing is.. as soon as i got my trials bike, my ability skyrocketed. everything just feels so much more natural and easier on one. so pretty much, the sooner you buy a trials bike, the sooner you'll get better.

[Gronk]

The sad thing is i'm ON a trials bike already hehe. I got me a Rhino mod, and while it does make things easier, I am still not overly endowed with natural skill. I was just thinking of selling my stp frame and sticking the parts on a trials frame, then in time get specialist trials parts.

Pivoting up onto stuff has been working ok for me so far, but I wanna learn sidehops and to lurch up onto the back wheel onto stuff - just so i can ride things smaller than the bike's wheelbase. Yesterday I was lurching onto the rear just on flat ground, and got a couple going ok, trouble is I always hop backwards on the rear wheel. So I'll lurch up then hop back further than when I started.

[dylanm]

The sad thing is i'm ON a trials bike already hehe. I got me a Rhino mod, and while it does make things easier, I am still not overly endowed with natural skill. I was just thinking of selling my stp frame and sticking the parts on a trials frame, then in time get specialist trials parts.

Pivoting up onto stuff has been working ok for me so far, but I wanna learn sidehops and to lurch up onto the back wheel onto stuff - just so i can ride things smaller than the bike's wheelbase. Yesterday I was lurching onto the rear just on flat ground, and got a couple going ok, trouble is I always hop backwards on the rear wheel. So I'll lurch up then hop back further than when I started.


maybe the back hopping thing has something to do with your stem/ bb height combo. what stem do you run? i think the rhino mods have neg bb? try getting a longer/higher stem, but you've probably already got one on it, right? the only other thing is, obviously, lean forward more. try to learn sidehops, but don't worry if you cant, its a pretty difficult skill.

by the way, i ride with other people who are way better than me alot. you live in wollongong right? come up to sydney for a ride and i bet you'll finish the ride with alot more skill than at the start of it. you may even be able to convince us to go down there one day.

[Gronk]

Yeah I think the Rhino's set up isn't doing me any favours. The stem is stock and I am sure it would be good to have a longer one (which I would get if trialshive would get back to me). I think the BB is a positive rise not sure how high it is though, but it definitely looks like it is higher than the axles.

Where in Sydney do you guys ride? And please tell me there are some older people there... I am 33 and dunno how many 15 year olds I could handle being shown up by at one time hehehe.

[dylanm]

Hahaha.. we ride all over the place. every wednesday night we ride street in the city, hyde park and circular quay which is pretty fun, and every weekend we ride the cliffs around the beaches, great natural stuff for every level of rider. if u wanna have a look, check google earth out for coogee, clovelly, gordons bay, little bay, la perouse, and generally the sydney coastline. Theres not too many 15 year olds actually, i'm 19, and most of the guys are older than me. i'm not too accurate in this, but the average is around 24 -25?, max. somewhere in the 30s?

[Gronk]

Well I got a mate up in Sydney who keeps bugging me to come and ride (not trials) with him, so I will definitely have to make the trip up there one weekend and bring various bikes :)

[donkay]

Hey Gronk, are you planning on getting an Echo/Zhi mod stem or so?

I don't know if that's 'ideal' the fact that the stem angle on that is 'high' but long.....

the fact that; with the 'lower' and longer stem (Monty) and when you backhop, the centre balance point is all closer eg.
front wheel + Handlebar + body position is all close together so the balancing is easier

whereas if you've got a higher rise stem, the whole front wheel + bar etc etc is further apart, therefore balancing can be 'bit' more harder if that makes sense?

But, whatever rocks your boat is all good :)

and Rhino mods have some sort of BB rise....

[Gronk]

Thanks Donakey, this is the sort of info I need, I basically picked the Echo stem at random, but what you say makes sense. So for a tall bugger like me (6') what would you recommend? From memory the montys are about 160mm x 25deg or thereabouts.

Oh yeah just quickly too... flat or riser bars? Or is it purely personal preference? At the moment I am using an Eastern ea 30 low riser and was thinking of going to a higher rise.

Well this may be good, trialshive doens't seem to want to reply to my emails, so now I can talk to someone else :)

[Povi]

Where in Sydney do you guys ride? And please tell me there are some older people there... I am 33 and dunno how many 15 year olds I could handle being shown up by at one time hehehe.

never fear i am the only one :D.

[donkay]

Well, if you say you've picked up an Echo stem, then stick with a flat bar (you absolutley wouldn't want ANYMORE rise on it)

Whereas if you got the Monty stem, then yes, get the Monty riser bar with it

and everything else...is just in the mind :)

[mtb011]

Thanks derek, but don't those frames have the super high BB? I like the echo frames as they aren't too high 15-20ish mm and I get the feeling that's better for a newbie.

15-20 cm's?

[donkay]

i'm sure it's mm :)

[Gronk]

Yeah it's mm.

So the next dumb question: where can I actually buy my monty stem and bars? Manlycycles seems to be the best bet, but they have very little onfo on the stem itself. Can anyone recommend some stores? I have pretty much given up on trialshive, which is a shame because they seem so cheap.

Any help would be much appreciated.

[Povi]

im not sure but i dont think manly cycles can get monty parts in
try speaking to 'trialsguy' here on farkin, its ben benny who works at manly cycles

[wombat]

Sorry Gronk, I don't want to derail this thread, but I have a related question about trials cranks like those from Echo.

I've got an old rhino stock which really hasn't gotten a lot of use lately, so this question is pretty academic, but the BB and old Alivio cranks are pretty RS. I was looking on trials hive and saw that those echo CNC cranks are pretty cheap. I'm not sure when trials companies somehow decided that CNCing made stronger components than forging, but hey, they look hot.

Anyway, getting to the point!
I dig those cranks, and they're ISIS, so getting a BB isn't a drama. I don't really feel like making the move to front freewheel though, so will one of the threaded sprockets run on those cranks, with the bashring? And how does the bashring attach?
Maybe I'm being too picky, but the idea of a screw-on bashring doesn't really excite me, given that it is very likely to recieve impacts in both directions, and I don't want my bashy unwinding and unscrewing the sprocket with it!

I was actually riding the rhino the other day, and it occured to me that maybe it is a little short in the frame too. I'm around 6', and it's the rhino stock frame with a 90mm /25* stem (I THINK) and a Ritchey riser at about 1". Anyone with more experience got anything to add about that?


Oh, and whilst I'm here, what the hell is the go with all these trials companies? Echo, Adamant, Zhi, they all seem to be making incredibly similar products, and very similar prices, and very similar websites. Are they all just Taiwanese factories going direct or something?

[Gronk]

Meh, you can hijack the thread... i did the same to someone else's :D

If you get any response from trialshive though, let me know, either the contact email interface in their site doesn't work or they just don't want my business.

Sorry I can't actually offer any advice though.

[---Matt---]

Oh, and whilst I'm here, what the hell is the go with all these trials companies? Echo, Adamant, Zhi, they all seem to be making incredibly similar products, and very similar prices, and very similar websites. Are they all just Taiwanese factories going direct or something?

I can't help much as I'm really just getting into trials at the moment but from the research I've been doing over the last couple weeks I think I can answer this question.
Echo, Adamant, Zoo, GU and Czar are actually made in China and all the companies seem to owned by the same guy, Deng. This is why they all appear very similar in design with similar websites and are also similarly priced too.

Zhi (owned by Yao Zhi) and Koxx seem to be the only other two major trials specific companies and are individually owned by their respective owners.

And Gronk, I've just bought that Echo Pure that David from Trialshive.com was selling from observedtrials.net (http://www.observedtrials.net/vb/showthread.php?t=28116) and he seems to reply fairly regularly to my emails. I'll send him an email on your behalf and see if I can get him to email you a reply if ya like. Just PM me your email address and I'll send it.
I'm not trying to stick up for the guy, I'm just surprised that he's neglecting your emails when he seemed quite happy to reply to mine.

Cheers,

---Matt---

[donkay]

Gronk - head to www.monty.com.au (steve huxter is the man for Stem/Bar combo)
Or www.Expressivebikes.com (Tim is the man)

Wombat - everything is made in the Echo Factory in Taiwan (There's alot more than the consumer doesn't know...but I can't discuss that publicly :) ) and yes, you're correct about the cnc quality over forged (but you know....looks sell more than a quality build :P)

Yes, you can get 'fixed' screwed sprockets and screw straight onto the Front Freewheel cranks, All the bashring is, is...a thick circle shape, with a hole in the middle for the threaded part of the crank to sit cosy in, and the freewheel/sprocket (acting like a nut) will tighten the bashring against the crank into place and you'd be surprised, they hold up fine and will NEVER loosen up....especially with all the 'acting' force and torque on the drivetrain...it'll surely dig in tight

with your Rhino Stock, i'd probably and personally would run a longer stem, rise seems about right, stock is easy to play with setup's....just keep on truckin with stems till it feels 'perfect' (seriously, there's like a MILLION mtb stems to play with :P) But read my post a page before or so about me mentioning how high or low it should be, it'll make sense

[Gronk]

Matt - pm sent to you.

Donkay - am trying the monty site now. I tried the expressivebikes site and the one category that didn't have an active link was stems and bars! :mad:

I'll send that steve huxter an email and see what he says.

[peterd]

gronk, come up to the comp in Arcadia on the 20th May. if you ask my Bro nicely, he might give you a lift. you will get more info than you can handle there. the number is on OTN. i expect to see you there!!

[donkay]

Gronk mate,

As the Trials industry is VERY small in the WORLD, websites/online stores can't display EVERYTHING on the website, email-ing is the key in Trials, keep that in mind ;)

[Gronk]

gronk, come up to the comp in Arcadia on the 20th May. if you ask my Bro nicely, he might give you a lift. you will get more info than you can handle there. the number is on OTN. i expect to see you there!!

Hmm it is in the back of my mind to go up there... I'd feel like a total pillock competing though; I have no actual skills! Although if novice really is a case of "you don't need any trials specific skills" I may consider it :D

Donkay: yeah I am learning how right you are... email is the key. I finally got a hold of the trialshive guy and am trying to get an order sorted.