2009 - Trek Session 88 DH and FR.

[Kirky]

Just found the new Trek 88 range on NSMB and though I would share it with you all.

Trek Session 88 DH - 8" of travel, uses the same 1-piece 'EVO link' as the '08 Fuel and Remedy lines, along with the now Trek-standard ABP axle pivot. Expect to pay around $5999 to get a bike that builds to a lovely 37lb.
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/Kirky42/sess88.jpg

Session 88 FR - indentical geometry to the DH version, but with a more freeride component build.
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/Kirky42/88FR.jpg

New brakes that we weren't meant to have seen yet. The Avid Elixir.
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/Kirky42/elixir.jpg

New Saint rear mech using a variation of Shadow technology. Notice the internal cable routing. Like the Remedy the Session 88 will pivot at the rear axle - what Trek calls 'Active Braking Pivot' or ABP.
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/Kirky42/saintmech.jpg

E2 headtube flares from 1.125" to 1.5" for the best light weight / stiffness compromise..
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/Kirky42/headtube.jpg

[tupper]

Sort of looks like a squashed Kona Stab.
Not bad though.

[chuckies_here]

FARKKKKKK!!!!!
They are some of the nicest treks i have even seeeeeeeeeen.
Curious onto the Saint derailer and New Avid Brakes aswell.
Anybody got any more info on them?

[user name]

those bikes look real nice.
And yes the DH does look just like a squashed stab!

Not so sure if i really like th huge headset on the FR...just what size bearings do you need? Mack truck?

[oldbean]

Not so sure if i really like th huge headset on the FR...just what size bearings do you need? Mack truck?

No Mack truck. 1.5 lower bearing, 1 1/8 top bearing. Same as on the new Remedy as well. Remedy has forks from Fox and Rock Shox with custom steerers that taper from 1.5 to 1 1/8, so you don't need a reducer on the lower bearing.

[user name]

No Mack truck. 1.5 lower bearing, 1 1/8 top bearing. Same as on the new Remedy as well. Remedy has forks from Fox and Rock Shox with custom steerers that taper from 1.5 to 1 1/8, so you don't need a reducer on the lower bearing.

sounds like a good idea from a strength point of view and a good way for a bike co. to make money in spares and or royalties.

[Bomb446]

The new avid brakes might be designed purely around DH race?
Either way Im going to start saving for one of those frames.

Does anybody know if an Lg1 will work with ABP? I've heard the Lg1 won't fit.

[carpo_jnr]

Finally looks like Trek is making a step towards the realistic DH scene - that session 10 just didn't suit.
IMO i think the FR looks better, but Dh is still cool

-carpo-

[BLAKE-2234]

The new avid brakes might be designed purely around DH race?
Either way Im going to start saving for one of those frames.

Does anybody know if an Lg1 will work with ABP? I've heard the Lg1 won't fit.

i dont see why it wouldn't it is no different principal as a kona or norco and lg1's fit on them so it should work

[Bodin]

sounds like a good idea from a strength point of view and a good way for a bike co. to make money in spares and or royalties.

Another idea from road bikes makes it to the MTB scene... top end carbon road bikes started going this way a while ago when they realised how much stiffer they could make the front end of the bike for high speed cornering.

The first time I saw it on a MTB was on the recent Stumpjumper Carbon (the 120mm travel version), with their new in-house fork with the tapered steerer.

Now Trek have got on the bandwagon as well, which isn't that surprising, seeing as most of their design cues seem to be coming from Specialized, more than Kona. Compare the 88DH to the look of a new Specialized Enduro and you'll see what I mean...

[bitterbro]

Best Trek line up EVER.

[ajay]

If that pricing is remotely acurate, it wil be a refreshing change from treks usually overpriced rigs.

Although, the wheels....

[Dragonwoody]

New respect to Trek. Kudos. Is there a spec list?

[Bomb446]

If that pricing is remotely acurate, it wil be a refreshing change from treks usually overpriced rigs.

Although, the wheels....

They look like they have better spec than the current ones anyway. But 37 lbs..and it doesn't even have a super light spec either!

[Ivan]

That looks fantastic. Finally a Trek i would consider buying.

Isn't amazing how ugly a Kona faux bar is ( and has been for a long time) and how beautiful Trek have made a very similar design.

[oldbean]

New respect to Trek. Kudos. Is there a spec list?

Check the story about the launch at Pinkbike (http://www.pinkbike.com/news/trek-session-88-launch-2008.html) for some spec lists.

[chu]

thats HAWT...wonder how the new brakes perform...does look like a squashed stab whoever said that

[Jon]

Now Trek have got on the bandwagon as well, which isn't that surprising, seeing as most of their design cues seem to be coming from Specialized, more than Kona. Compare the 88DH to the look of a new Specialized Enduro and you'll see what I mean...
Thought I was looking at a new Enduro for a second. Except for the white fox forks .....

[Tallman]

Those bikes look absolutely awesome. I prefer the DH model over the FR model, but nonetheless, both awesome. Trek have done an awesome job with these two, respect goes to 'em. I think the Session 10 is an awesome bike too, at least looks wise, because I have never ridden one.

I would love to try one. Is it $5999 Aus or is that $US?

[brettyG]

Very nice, good to see Trek step up with the DH scene. At first I thought it was a painted up Specialized Enduro, but nonetheless, looks the goods. Hope it performs as well as the aesthetics look, then there'd be something to worry about!

Can't see how it looks like a squashed Stab though, if anything it's a curvalicious Stab!

And now all Trek needs to do is mass produce that killer short travel dually that McCaul is riding (and spec it out accordingly) and lift it's game with the Jack and they'd be loved by everyone.

I would love to try one. Is it $5999 Aus or is that $US?

I'd imagine it'd be in Aus, seeing as it was posted here. But either way, we'll get it around that price, seeing as we're 93USc now.

[Tomas]

As we've been telling them for a while, release a a DH bike below 5g! Ahh! drives me nuts....

Cant wait to ride one!

[Rider15]

Trek Session 88 DH - 8" of travel, uses the same 1-piece 'EVO link' as the '08 Fuel and Remedy lines, along with the now Trek-standard ABP axle pivot. Expect to pay around $5999 to get a bike that builds to a lovely 37lb.

Wouldnt that be American/Candian? As its directly from Pinkbike.

[oldbean]

I would love to try one. Is it $5999 Aus or is that $US?

The original post in this thread is from NSMB (http://www.nsmb.com/gear/otter_04_08.php) and so the RRP is for US (or maybe Canadian??) dollars. Australian pricing is yet to be finalised.

[GDonehue]

There are some more pictures of the new link on Pinkbike (http://www.pinkbike.com/news/trek-session-88-launch-2008.html). It will be interesting to see where the legal tussle ends up with DW on these - but if it is really 37lbs, I just did some quick changes on the listed parts and got this to 36 without even trying too hard (J5ive could probably trim the bugger to under 35 :) ). Could this be a real DH contender from Trek?

The floating link is something I really want to try now. I thought it was a bit similar to fusion's float link, but looking at the photos it is almost a complete reverse of it.

[ozztrailia]

Damn the DH is soo sxc ...


Dream bike right there !

[BLAKE-2234]

gravedig

none the less a nice bicycle

[Bomb446]

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/trek-session-88-details-2008.html

Different prototypes Trek built.

[Booost]

http://www.thesimpsonsquotes.com/images/captain_mad.gif
Arrr another Trek to join me fleet.

I wonder if it'll handle anything like the HMAS Session 10?

[rayza]

But either way, we'll get it around that price, seeing as we're 93USc now.

i seriously doubt that would influence the australian pricing compared to the US. As usuall we would have rediculously inflated prices, we just dont have the same market size.

[alex the rider]

the dh looks F@#% sweet

[Sputnick]

i quite like the dh one. I WANT THOSE BRAKES NOW!!:D i read an artical in amb about them

[oldbean]

You can also check out these links:
MBAction (http://mbaction.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=A3761E82635B434C8E6BE6F7A5350C6A)

Bike Mag (http://bikemag.com/gallery/trek_session_88_release_gallery/)

and Trek's own King of the Mountain (http://trekmountain.typepad.com/) blog weight loss program (http://trekmountain.typepad.com/king/2008/06/how-low-can-you.html)

14.5 Kgs is bloody light!

[clockworked]

thats nuts

I think i can guess what Udi or Squidly's next frames might be...

[brettyG]

i seriously doubt that would influence the australian pricing compared to the US. As usuall we would have rediculously inflated prices, we just dont have the same market size.

I dream of a better world.............................

[Tomas]

The original post in this thread is from NSMB (http://www.nsmb.com/gear/otter_04_08.php) and so the RRP is for US (or maybe Canadian??) dollars. Australian pricing is yet to be finalised.

Im sure oldbean will be able to clarify, word from the top is they're trying to get asian welded 88's here (like they did with the ex7-9) to keep the price down.

Fingers crossed.

[Tomas]

http://mbaction.com/Media/News/88DHLo.jpg

Tell me thats not a sexual DH bike.

[wombat]

Tell me thats not a sexual DH bike.
If you mean "sexual" as in 'pregnant', then yes, it's very sexual.

[whitey89]

I would still go a glory, however the new paint job and frame set up is much better than previous years. Im still not 100% sure about the bontranger components either.
Loving the brakes and the whitey 40s!

[Kirky]

Found a few more photos.
http://i5.pinkbike.com/photo/2128/pbpic2128540.jpg
http://i2.pinkbike.com/photo/2128/pbpic2128544.jpg

Plus I nice riding shot of Andrew Shandro.
http://i2.pinkbike.com/photo/2128/pbpic2128543.jpg

[bb7 rider]

anyone else hear the rumours sam hill might be signing with trek for 09?

[Oddjob]

You can also check out these links:
MBAction (http://mbaction.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=A3761E82635B434C8E6BE6F7A5350C6A)

Bike Mag (http://bikemag.com/gallery/trek_session_88_release_gallery/)

and Trek's own King of the Mountain (http://trekmountain.typepad.com/) blog weight loss program (http://trekmountain.typepad.com/king/2008/06/how-low-can-you.html)

14.5 Kgs is bloody light!

That is scary light for a DH bike. The XT cranks are probably going a bit far, but still. I'd be interested to see how the new Morewoods in a lightweight build would compare.

[Pixsoul]

anyone else hear the rumours sam hill might be signing with trek for 09?

I heard he was going to go ride moto...:rolleyes:

[Tomas]

If you mean "sexual" as in 'pregnant', then yes, it's very sexual.

Stop hating wombat.

(to be honest, i was pretty dissapointed with this frame as well :(, lots of elements i really dislike).

[floody]

That is scary light for a DH bike. The XT cranks are probably going a bit far, but still.

I see no issue in using XT cranks on a DH race bike? Saint is for freehuckjibbarrs.

[GDonehue]

Let's add an extra Kilo for the cranks so you can choose whatever ones you want... You are still talking about a 15.5kg bike with the same suspension system that Dave Weagle has designed, including split pivot (just all called different things until it all goes to court) as his next step on from the DW link (which doesn't work to badly)... It is going to be interesting to see what it sell for (and whether the 14.5kg is because they will break when you sneeze too hard).

[S.]

Let's add an extra Kilo for the cranks so you can choose whatever ones you want... You are still talking about a 15.5kg bike with the same suspension system that Dave Weagle has designed, including split pivot (just all called different things until it all goes to court) as his next step on from the DW link (which doesn't work to badly)... It is going to be interesting to see what it sell for (and whether the 14.5kg is because they will break when you sneeze too hard).

Split pivot was specifically designed to be cheaper to manufacture than DW-link, it isn't a superior system (these words from Dave himself). In fact all it really is, is FSR, but with a more complex pivot system and no patent infringement. There is nothing new in terms of performance going on here.

For what it's worth though, this is far more aesthetically pleasing than the heavily expectant Session 10, however S-bends belong in toilets, not seat tubes and down tubes.

I see no issue in using XT cranks on a DH race bike? Saint is for freehuckjibbarrs.

No way man, plenty of people have wrecked XT cranks riding DH. Udi managed it and he's like 60kg.

[GDonehue]

Split pivot was specifically designed to be cheaper to manufacture than DW-link, it isn't a superior system (these words from Dave himself). In fact all it really is, is FSR, but with a more complex pivot system and no patent infringement. There is nothing new in terms of performance going on here.

For what it's worth though, this is far more aesthetically pleasing than the heavily expectant Session 10, however S-bends belong in toilets, not seat tubes and down tubes.



No way man, plenty of people have wrecked XT cranks riding DH. Udi managed it and he's like 60kg.

Split pivot is simply the ABP element of what Jose has done here that is the same as DW (and is not in itself the main element of the suspension anyway). If we are going to be pedantic, yes Dave has said it is cheaper and that this is probably the major plus, but he also agrees with Jose in that it offers some braking advantages.

The step on from the DW link I was referring to is the floating shock element... forgotten what Trek is calling theirs - floater or something. When you look at the pictures in the latest adverts for DW (MBA), strangely they share this element too. Somewhere (I think it was on the Trek Blog) there is a big statement from them about the 'who came up with it first' and 'why are two design elements so similar' and 'no, we aren't spies'.

I really can't agree with it being JUST FSR - with the shock mounting directly to the second rocker. It is like calling the Proobst Float Link just a Horst Link- it isn't and 8 seconds of riding one and you know it isn't. The only DW frame I know of that has his new system is an Independent Fabrications one.

[GDonehue]

I knew I had a picture of the DW 'version' somewhere.

[Wellsey]

Trek have really got their shit together in the last two years; those bikes look wicked.

[Pixsoul]

I really can't agree with it being JUST FSR - with the shock mounting directly to the second rocker. It is like calling the Proobst Float Link just a Horst Link- it isn't and 8 seconds of riding one and you know it isn't. The only DW frame I know of that has his new system is an Independent Fabrications one.

***Takes cover from another S. vs. GDonehue fight***

I don't think I have seen a thread where both of you comment and not fight about something....oh hang on, I think Ajayflex has to come in to! :D

On a more thread related note. I actually want one of these new Sessions, they look the goods. Trek obviously want back in on the MTB scene as a serious contendor. They have been lacking in MTB for quite some time...probably while they were cashing in on Lance Armstrong in the road area. But the new gear coming out from them looks stellar.

Is the Split Pivot vs. ABP war still going on in court? I presum at the end of the day, it could be resolved with one design having the chainstay on the inside of the pivot. The other having the seat stay.....It wouldn't matter right? And coule void the other parties patent as it would be a completely changed dropout....voiding the rest of the patent?

[GDonehue]

Ha ha - actually S. and I do not disagree all the time (in fact I checked and it has only happened on four occasions vs more than four where we have agreed :) - but I am prepared to disagree with him where I think a lot of others might not (I am also more prepared to be wrong than most and be educated in my opinions). And in this case I simply put my first point poorly and corrected it, rather than disagreeing. I have immense respect for S.'s technical knowledge and he has always proven to be one of the brightest sparks in Farkinland - but what Trek have done is not an FSR copy - so why not argue it - it would be a boring flaming forum if we all held our tongues.

BOT - any pricing yet from Trek? If this rig came in under 7k in a 'WC' build I would think it a very good option on paper. Nico Vink is raving about it but he is paid to - so I am waiting to see an independent review.

I did hear a rumour that it was not going to court now - something about the timing of the two elements (Floating shock & ABP/SP) and that both parties had come up with one first (or at least had something to claim that they did). I have known Jose since 2002 - he is a straight shooter and technical wizard. I know Dave W only through Todd Seplavy but again - another guy I doubt would go stealing someone's design. Maybe this is just one of those things that both parties would prefer not to spend the lawyers fees on. I didn't even notice the chainstay - well picked up :)

[clockworked]

few little snippets from an NSMB article on the 88

"Each of the stock builds weighs around 38 lbs and the frame alone is 7 lbs without the shock and 9 lbs with a steel spring-equipped Fox DHX 5.0."

- not really that impressive, the sunday, 224 and socom are in similar figures, makes me think the builds they are using to get 15 kg bikes must be a bit light

"On one trip up the chair we were watching Cam McCaul come down the trail that’s closest to A Line (but scarier) and when he tipped the bike into a berm he tacoed the wheel."

- maybe the spec is a bit light on?

"What remains to be seen is how it will stand up to being thrown in the back of pick-ups and hurtled down Crabapple Hits. Fabio – one of the German journalists – laid down his bike on our very first lap. It was in a rather innocuous section of trail with no obvious hazards and yet somehow he managed to put a significant dent in one of the seat stays. Maybe this was a fluke – or maybe the frame pushes the weight envelope too far."

- they've got one of their road engineers working on 'sleeking' up the bike...


can't really argue with this though!
http://dev.nsmb.com/assets/images/gear/treksess88_08/2/SLorence80525_044-1.jpg

and as for pricing - $3400 US for the frame alone, $4500 CND

the full article is here (http://dev.nsmb.com/page/s/2511/trek-session-88)

[GDonehue]

That was great - at least it was upfront about the weight. At $5800 - 6400 US that will mean it costs two kidneys here - right? Makes it a little too rich for me until I win the lotto, Interesting to hear the review comments about the price putting it in the boutique range (foes etc) - I thought the Sunday WC and V-10 were about this price in the US too?

[S.]

Split pivot is simply the ABP element of what Jose has done here that is the same as DW (and is not in itself the main element of the suspension anyway). If we are going to be pedantic, yes Dave has said it is cheaper and that this is probably the major plus, but he also agrees with Jose in that it offers some braking advantages.

The step on from the DW link I was referring to is the floating shock element... forgotten what Trek is calling theirs - floater or something. When you look at the pictures in the latest adverts for DW (MBA), strangely they share this element too. Somewhere (I think it was on the Trek Blog) there is a big statement from them about the 'who came up with it first' and 'why are two design elements so similar' and 'no, we aren't spies'.

I really can't agree with it being JUST FSR - with the shock mounting directly to the second rocker. It is like calling the Proobst Float Link just a Horst Link- it isn't and 8 seconds of riding one and you know it isn't. The only DW frame I know of that has his new system is an Independent Fabrications one.

Alright let me clarify - DW said that his split pivot design was intended to be a cheaper mass-market suspension system than DW-link, because it didn't need the same manufacturing tolerances. For all intents and purposes, the performance is the same as FSR for two reasons:
1. The axle path is circular. Despite what Specialized would have you believe, FSR axle paths are usually extremely close to circular. Some are even mathematically 100% circular.
2. The braking performance is de-coupled from the pedalling performance. You can put the pivot (or centre of curvature in an FSR system) wherever you like and independently tune the braking characteristics by changing the location of the instant centre of the linkage. The same applies for Split Pivot/ABP, since the axle is still on the chainstay but the brake caliper is on the seatstay.

The split pivot/ABP things allow you to do that in an even easier manner than FSR, because you don't have to go to the massive effort (haha) of plotting out your centre of curvature and placing it where you want it, you can just bang in the main pivot. However, from a performance point of view, you can get IDENTICAL, and I do mean 100% identical, outputs from Split Pivot/ABP and FSR. In fact it could be done so exactly that you could in fact run an FSR linkage on the left side of the bike, and a split pivot linkage on the right side of the bike, as long as the CC of the FSR linkage was in the same place as the split pivot main pivot and the top pivot of the seatsay lined up. Sounds unbelievable but it is completely true, Ken Sasaki wrote an article about that kind of stuff years and years ago.

All the shock positioning does on the Trek, and the IF (that's a Tungsten Electrode right? Those have been around since 2003 or 2004), is change the shock rate in a convenient-to-package way. It doesn't actually change the pedalling characteristics, nor do anything but affect the shock rate. The Fusion float link thing is the same, as is the Rotec RL9, the original Sunday protos, etc etc. All it does is change the shock rate, absolutely nothing else. There is no one way to generate any given shock rate, there is an infinitely variable range of geometry which can give the same outputs.

[clockworked]

That was great - at least it was upfront about the weight. At $5800 - 6400 US that will mean it costs two kidneys here - right? Makes it a little too rich for me until I win the lotto, Interesting to hear the review comments about the price putting it in the boutique range (foes etc) - I thought the Sunday WC and V-10 were about this price in the US too?

eah, on the domestic market in the US, some of the guys are saying that they could by two socom frames for the same price as one 88.

pretty keen from a company everyone sees as mass produced…

[GDonehue]

Alright let me clarify - DW said that his split pivot design was intended to be a cheaper mass-market suspension system than DW-link, because it didn't need the same manufacturing tolerances. For all intents and purposes, the performance is the same as FSR for two reasons:
1. The axle path is circular. Despite what Specialized would have you believe, FSR axle paths are usually extremely close to circular. Some are even mathematically 100% circular.
2. The braking performance is de-coupled from the pedalling performance. You can put the pivot (or centre of curvature in an FSR system) wherever you like and independently tune the braking characteristics by changing the location of the instant centre of the linkage. The same applies for Split Pivot/ABP, since the axle is still on the chainstay but the brake caliper is on the seatstay.

The split pivot/ABP things allow you to do that in an even easier manner than FSR, because you don't have to go to the massive effort (haha) of plotting out your centre of curvature and placing it where you want it, you can just bang in the main pivot. However, from a performance point of view, you can get IDENTICAL, and I do mean 100% identical, outputs from Split Pivot/ABP and FSR. In fact it could be done so exactly that you could in fact run an FSR linkage on the left side of the bike, and a split pivot linkage on the right side of the bike, as long as the CC of the FSR linkage was in the same place as the split pivot main pivot and the top pivot of the seatsay lined up. Sounds unbelievable but it is completely true, Ken Sasaki wrote an article about that kind of stuff years and years ago.

All the shock positioning does on the Trek, and the IF (that's a Tungsten Electrode right? Those have been around since 2003 or 2004), is change the shock rate in a convenient-to-package way. It doesn't actually change the pedalling characteristics, nor do anything but affect the shock rate. The Fusion float link thing is the same, as is the Rotec RL9, the original Sunday protos, etc etc. All it does is change the shock rate, absolutely nothing else. There is no one way to generate any given shock rate, there is an infinitely variable range of geometry which can give the same outputs.

On ABP/SP - You see - now I feel much more educated. I just got the Ken Sasaki article so will bog up. You have explained that really well - thanks (see Ken, I am not going to argue with him at ALL!)

On the Floater (let's call it that - as it is getting annoying trying to call it by the 8 different names): It looks like a Tunsgten, but I (we) could be wrong. I have a photo somewhere on disk.

As far as the benefits - agree, partially. I can only speak with experience for the Float Link. The advantages we found were:
1) More Linear Rate (although - and this is a BIG although) the current DH design does not express this linear rate in all situations (got me plucked why). But it does on the XC and AM bikes
2) I know you'll call this a wank - but our riders found it was more active than other designs. James and Jenna came off a V-10s, Antonio off a Rocky and Florent off a Yeti 303. This could be because the front triangle is more isolated (Bodo once said it is fully isolated, but even a non-engineering geek like me knows that is physically impossible to achieve). Myself... well as I have said before, I am a gump on wheels, but having ridden a number of DH rigs (including four FSR type) and nothing I have tried had the feel while hammering of the fusion. Guido uses the design in all his 4X racing and is doing pretty well considering it does not improve his pedaling.
3) Less wear on the bearings ALTHOUGH they used such cheap arsed parts this counted for little.
4) Lower centre of gravity than most bikes I've tried (but no better than some of the top bikes) and I found I could tune the shock more easily.

I would never say that it does not hold some of the same characteristics as the FSR (I mean, shit, Bodo worked with Horst, so I think you'd be stupid not to see his design as being a development on this), but I would also disagree that it IS just an FSR or that it does not pedal better.

[GDonehue]

Couldn't find mine, but found this - yes it is a TE

[GDonehue]

Ken Sasaki wrote an article about that kind of stuff years and years ago.



I am a quarter way through this (http://www.mundobiker.es/content/category/3/67/185/)... Flaming great read (although I admit some of the points I will need to study on). thank you!

[S.]

On ABP/SP - You see - now I feel much more educated. I just got the Ken Sasaki article so will bog up. You have explained that really well - thanks (see Ken, I am not going to argue with him at ALL!)

On the Floater (let's call it that - as it is getting annoying trying to call it by the 8 different names): It looks like a Tunsgten, but I (we) could be wrong. I have a photo somewhere on disk.

As far as the benefits - agree, partially. I can only speak with experience for the Float Link. The advantages we found were:
1) More Linear Rate (although - and this is a BIG although) the current DH design does not express this linear rate in all situations (got me plucked why). But it does on the XC and AM bikes
2) I know you'll call this a wank - but our riders found it was more active than other designs. James and Jenna came off a V-10s, Antonio off a Rocky and Florent off a Yeti 303. This could be because the front triangle is more isolated (Bodo once said it is fully isolated, but even a non-engineering geek like me knows that is physically impossible to achieve). Myself... well as I have said before, I am a gump on wheels, but having ridden a number of DH rigs (including four FSR type) and nothing I have tried had the feel while hammering of the fusion. Guido uses the design in all his 4X racing and is doing pretty well considering it does not improve his pedaling.
3) Less wear on the bearings ALTHOUGH they used such cheap arsed parts this counted for little.
4) Lower centre of gravity than most bikes I've tried (but no better than some of the top bikes) and I found I could tune the shock more easily.

I would never say that it does not hold some of the same characteristics as the FSR (I mean, shit, Bodo worked with Horst, so I think you'd be stupid not to see his design as being a development on this), but I would also disagree that it IS just an FSR or that it does not pedal better.

It is just an FSR :) However there are greatly varying degrees of pedalling efficiency within different FSR layouts. Ride a Demo or an SGS for example and compare the pedalling efficiency to a 2003 Bighit - they're significantly different but they all fall under the FSR patent. The only thing that affects pedal efficiency, for a given bike/riding geometry and gearing choice, is axle path (Sasaki's Path Analysis article explains that pretty well, though he doesn't go into much detail about what actually causes suspension squat or anything like that). Where the shock is mounted has absolutely nothing to do with it, and mounting the shock between two links of the suspension does not isolate the front triangle any more than it otherwise would be. It does however have the advantage that you now only have two points of load application for the suspension on the front triangle (two pivots) where normally you'd have three (two pivots plus a shock mount) which means you only need to reinforce those two areas.

A basic comprehension problem that a lot of engi-marketer types (ie most bike designers) have with suspension activity is that they don't understand that any suspension system, when it comes to the actual spring/damper activity in bump absorption, simply needs to be measured between the ground (ie the wheel) and the sprung mass. The specific force transmission paths, ie the linkage layout, will not affect anything if the effective spring/damper rates at the wheel are the same. You can mount the shock wherever you like, using a 400 bar linkage if you like, but if the eventual wheel rates are the same then the bump absorption characteristics will be the same. The active feel and whatnot of the suspension on those bikes will be due to the shock rate, the geometry of the bike (short chainstays often make bikes feel more active I find) and the axle path. Not where the shock is mounted, that's just marketing crap.

[shake_rattle_and_ roll]

"Maude, get the e-mace ready and call 000- think we're gonna have an e-riot soon!"

Goddamn- I love it when these suspension and linkage debates start flyin!

[GDonehue]

Do any of the arguments against PA stand up, S.? (asking to save believing too readily)

[GDonehue]

It is just an FSR :) . The active feel and whatnot of the suspension on those bikes will be due to the shock rate, the geometry of the bike (short chainstays often make bikes feel more active I find) and the axle path.

We are still going to disagree - If it is an FSR - then it is infringing patents - it is not. With an FSR the leverage ratio and rate is pretty much fixed. But I have also learned more in reading 100 pages of Sasaki than I have in 20 years of riding... so I am prepared to smile and disagree.

The Geometry would explain the fusion's pedalling ALOT - the bugger had chainstays so short Maltman was longer than them :) Also on you comment about the need to reinforce - we saw that too... we snapped five frame in three months (Maltman still thinks that one contributing factor here was that the rear triangle was too stiff).

[S.]

Do any of the arguments against PA stand up, S.? (asking to save believing too readily)

No, what he says is technically correct, nothing is WRONG per se, however in some parts it isn't complete as such. I don't believe he goes into any real detail on the actual cause of suspension bobbing, brake interference, or any quantification of either.

We are still going to disagree - If it is an FSR - then it is infringing patents - it is not. With an FSR the leverage ratio and rate is pretty much fixed. But I have also learned more in reading 100 pages of Sasaki than I have in 20 years of riding... so I am prepared to smile and disagree.

The Geometry would explain the fusion's pedalling ALOT - the bugger had chainstays so short Maltman was longer than them :) Also on you comment about the need to reinforce - we saw that too... we snapped five frame in three months (Maltman still thinks that one contributing factor here was that the rear triangle was too stiff).


The linkage layout is very much FSR in a pedalling/braking context, there would be zero difference in pedalling or braking interaction if the pivot locations were maintained as they were but the shock was instead driven off the top/front of that upper link against the front triangle. They might have gotten around the patents by using the floating shock thing however. Like I said though, the fact that it falls under FSR geometry doesn't mean it will pedal or behave the same as any one other FSR bike - there is a lot of room for variation under that patent.

Where were the frames snapping? Potential weak points I could see in that bike would be the top shock link pivot and the bridge across the seatstays, and a lot of FSR bikes crack the insides of the chainstays from sideways loading. Making stuff too stiff doesn't usually cause weakness, because the same geometric/structural factors that increase/decrease stiffness usually also increase/decrease strength in direct proportion. This is one of the reasons why it's very difficult to make a hardtail that is both extremely strong and slightly compliant (check out the old Banshee Morphines for an example of a strong and ridiculously stiff frame).