Anyone in Sydney wish to reply to these? NEWER LETTERS ADDED

[johnny]

Fearing cyclists who are neither here nor there

Darren Armstrong (Heckler, October 4) wants to know why Sydney motorists are afraid of cyclists. Well, cyclists can never decide whether they are road users or pedestrians.

When they are playing road users, they think they have exclusive rights to the middle lane, but if they suddenly come to a red light, the pavement looks far more attractive, so they will swerve out of the middle lane, mount the pavement, and pretend to be pedestrians.

At night they rarely display lights. Since they also like to wear black or dark colours to match their cycles, this makes them impossible to see. However, theirs are the loudest voices of protest when they are knocked down.

Many cyclists don't understand, or can't be bothered to learn, the road rules on the basis that the rules don't apply to cyclists. It's an unhappy fact of life, but the days when roads were for cyclists are long gone.

These days the roads are designed exclusively with cars in mind. In an ideal world, each road would have a cycle track running alongside it.

Valerie Brown, Woollahra, October 4.

Darren Armstrong may never have encountered road rage from a fellow cyclist, but perhaps that's because he has never been a pedestrian on a so-called shared pathway. On the Anzac Bridge footpath for example, which I regularly use to walk to work, aggression from cyclists in a hurry is not uncommon.

Now that I learn from Darren that they are actually engaged in a Tour de France-style race, maybe that's not so surprising.

Surely now, after so many letters and columns about this subject, we can declare a moratorium on holier-than-than cyclists lecturing us about how morally inadequate and stupid the rest of Sydney's commuters are? At least until they try walking.

Russell Edwards, Drummoyne, October 4.


Here's the address to the letters page at the Herald if you wish to vent your dissatisfaction *edit sorry guys but you also need to provide a contact no. to the herald so's they can confirm the name of the sender. Should have mentioned this before, don't expect your letter to be printed if you didn't provide it, but don't worry, there are a number of militant cyclists out there who never miss the opportunity to reply to these dweebs:letters@smh.com.au

[Daneel]

Just adding on, it's actually illegal for adult cyclists to ride on footpaths unless it specifically says cycle way. Of course, everyone still rides on the footpaths and no-one i know has ever gotten pulled up for it...

Also, cyclists are entitled to take up an entire lane on the road, provided they signal appropriately and obey all normal road rules that can apply to them.

[naz]

my email

Hi,
I Ride in the city a few days a week, people complain about
riders when they run a few reds what about when pedestrians j-walk
when they think its all clear, then u ride past almost hittin them and
they scream obsenities at you,

"These days the roads are designed exclusively with cars in mind. In
an ideal world, each road would have a cycle track running alongside
it."
ideally if sydney was designed(planned) there wouldnt be so traffic,
where not talking about perfect world scenarios, live with it

ive been riding for years in the city for years, i dont see what is so
wrong about bikes weaving through traffic when motorcycles do it all
the time, and aggressive drivers who think its funn to swerve at you.
i dont ride a road bike, i dont wear lycra,i race downhilll mountain
bike.

Alex Nazarewicz, Mosman (18 )

[October26]

They actually changed the laws about riding on footpaths back a year or two ago. You CAN ride on footpaths now. I'm not sure why they changed it.

Perhaps someone could find a link stating the actual current laws?

[apsilon]

Fairly certain it hasn't changed, at least in NSW.

IIRC under 12 is OK. Adults can ride on a footpath if they're with an under 12 but I think they're the only times.

I'll admit I do ride on the footpath for any busy roads unless there's a dedicated bicycle lane. I drive everyday and see the stupid things people do and I'd rather not take the risk.

[October26]

It did change I guarantee.

[naz]

I drive everyday and see the stupid things people do

thats why i ride :lol:
its good for ur reflexes

[ona rampage]

My reply;

In reply to Valerie Brown, 4th October.

I am a cyclist, who uses combined cycle paths and walkways occasionally. I admit that I do get frustrated with pedestrians who also use combined cycle paths and walkways. Not all I must admit, only the ones who feel that they need to walk abreast, blocking up the whole path. Or those who, despite the clear delineation of cycle vs. pedestrian parts of the path, feel they can walk down either side. Or those who just meander on the wrong side of the pathway, oblivious to all in the world.
Try it in a car; you will quickly get abused, or even fined.
Cycling is all about motion; you try to maintain your motion as much as possible, because in the next uphill section if you are already moving you have to input less energy. This doesn't really matter if you are a pedestrian, but it sure does to a cyclist. I get extremely frustrated when I have to slow down for a pedestrian doing the wrong thing, cause I am the one who has to pay.
Surely it is not so hard to abide by what should surely be a common sense approach to combined cycle paths and walkways?

Cheers,

Paul

Lidcombe,

[ebuk]

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/trafficinformation/bicycles/makingitsafertocycle/bicyclesafety/cyclingrules.html

Cycling on the footpath if the cyclist is less than 12 years old. An adult, who is riding in a supervisory capacity of a cyclist less than 12 years old, may also ride with the young cyclist on the footpath

[Gutty]

Naz, If you wanna be taken seriously, it helps to atleast seem smart. Your punctuation is shocking !
"ive been riding for years in the city for years"...is also a bit :?
As for your line "then u ride past almost hittin them".......well thats gotta help the cause..... :roll:
Oh, and i like this one too...."i dont see what is so wrong about bikes weaving through traffic".....Not really doing the cycling world any favours there either mate.
Weather motos do it or not is irrelevant, they are much faster, louder and also licenced, registered and usually insured.

For what it's worth, I agree with alot of what Valerie has to say, i see that crap she talks about every single day on our roads.......and it pisses me off. Though i do think she's exagerating just a weee bit......... :roll:

You want a whole lane to yourself ? Do the speed limit. If you can't then atleast make an affort to ride in the gutter. You're not HOT, i don't wanna sit behind you looking at your ass.

You wanna run red lights ? Get off the farkin road all together.

And these guys that turn around and hold their hand up like a dumb cop telling you to stop, so they can cross multiple lanes of traffic with out stopping.........and just expect you to do so without a second thought........thats just pure arrogance IMO. In the end they hold up a whole lot of traffic just so they can change lanes............."Fvck everyone else" seems to be the general attitude in this situation. :(


Tell me, when you're driving, how many of you come across a cyclist(or a group) on the road and then just sit behind them happily doing 20km/h ?? I bet you all answer "blow that"..............hmm, wonder why... :roll:
Now imagine you don't even like riding bikes......... :idea:
Helping to understand the "other side" yet ??

Please don't get me wrong here, i love riding, i love my bikes, i even ride on the road occasionally(often on my moto)............but I do hate roadies with attitudes(99% of them). For some reason i get the feeling they think they have a right to fvck with traffic........then bitch when they get hit.

Disclaimer: not all roadies are idiots, just the ones that don't post on farkin. :wink:

[Cave Dweller]

You want a whole lane to yourself ? Do the speed limit. If you can't then atleast make an affort to ride in the gutter. You're not HOT, i don't wanna sit behind you looking at your ass.

You wanna run red lights ? Get off the farkin road all together.


No offence, but i have been run off the road so many times by people trying to sqeeze past me when i ride in the gutter. The only safe way to ride on sydney roads is to not let people get around you without having to move into the next lane, which means riding in the middle of the lane.

And if people decide to tail gate me and not give me space or start being abusive towards me beeping their horns, then i ride slower to piss them off.

Car drivers, just deal with it that not everyone wants to drive in a pollution machine.

That said, i don't ride on busy main roads as car drivers are just fucking nuts. I tend to ride back streets even if it takes longer to get where i am going.

As for running through red lights, car drivers do it, bus drivers do it, motor bikes do, taxis do it, pedestrians do it so i do it too. But if you run the red, you run the risk.

I will pay attention to all road rules the same day that all car drivers do, which is never.

-Matt

[johnny]

You want a whole lane to yourself ? Do the speed limit. If you can't then atleast make an affort to ride in the gutter. You're not HOT, i don't wanna sit behind you looking at your ass.

And these poofters that turn around and hold their hand up like a dumb cop telling you to stop, so they can cross multiple lanes of traffic with out stopping.........and just expect you to do so without a second thought........thats just pure arrogance IMO. In the end they hold up a whole lot of traffic just so they can change lanes............."Fvck everyone else" seems to be the general attitude in this situation. :(


Tell me, when you're driving, how many of you come across a cyclist(or a group) on the road and then just sit behind them happily doing 20km/h ?? I bet you all answer "blow that"..............hmm, wonder why... :roll:
Now imagine you don't even like riding bikes......... :idea:
Helping to understand the "other side" yet ?? I am part of the other side mate :?

:

Yeah I think I'll hit this one up too.

1. Want the whole lane to yourself then do the speed limit!!?? what a croc! do all cars do the speed limit? NO, I don't think my grandfather's car EVER hit 60! I didn't think that he should be driving if he couldn't keep up with traffic, but he and many others who drive slow are called "cautious drivers" Why not bike riders too?

2. Excuse me but many drivers (taxis busses many trucks) also drive with the "fvck everyone else" attitude too, but it only seems to be the bike riders that get singled out on the letters pages of the herald.

3. Yeah I DO bloody sit behind riders doing 20km until it's safe to pass, what do you think I do, run them off the bloody road or something? Sometimes it's the only option available, yes it can be frustrating. Although not as frustrating as being pushed off the road because some driver does not know the width of his/her car.

I'm a motorist :oops: and a rider :D and let me tell you, when diving on sydney roads, those who drive cars (that are infinitely more lethal than bikes) unsafely, VASTLY outnumber those who ride bikes unsafely. Who do you think will get hurt if a car hits a push bike?

Let me re-itterate my point. There are many more cars on the road that drive unsafely than bikes. Cars cause much more damage than bikes in accidents. Why do we continually allow bike riders to be scapegoated in order to further facillitate the lack of patience, selfishness and dominence of car drivers?

Sorry if that sounded a little angry, but you were very assuming and judgemental about people you haven't even met in your post. I for one feel that you have made erroneous assumptions and unfairly judged my behaviour as a cyclist, and a motorist.

[Rik]

What happens when cyclists write letters picking on 4wd drivers? Does the letters section spontaneously combust?

I love how easy it is to pigeonhole minority groups. I was thinking about this today (due to an unrelated discussion at work), what would happen if people started complaining about car drivers, how they break the laws, and how every car driver should be targeted just because a minority broke the law. There'd be uproar, wouldn't there? It's getting a bit tiring to have people attack every cyclist for the actions of a small group.

Pedestrians on both Anzac and Pyrmont Bridges need a bit of education, they're shared zones, and by the law pedestrians must not obstruct the path of another pedestrian. In shared zones, other pedestrians include cyclists. That doesn't justify the aggressive behaviour of riders (and cyclists still must give way at all times), but if pedestrians used their heads, and kept to the left, I'd guess there wouldn't be half as much "aggression". That'd probably be the best angle to go for when replying to the above letters, because I'm sure not everyone realises the responsibilities they have, even when on the footpath.

[tm_007]

Have to totally agree with you there johhny ^^^^^^^^^^^^

I have been hit by a car on numerous occasions and thank my lucky stars that they were slow moving incidents where the driver pulled out in front of me and I ended up on the bonnet.

I find that if you ride like a car, you are treated like a car. Sounds dumb and yeah, a cyclist is always going to come off second best, but seriously, throw a set of lights on your bike, even cheap blinky ones, put them ON during the day and ride in YOUR lane in traffic. On high speed (read 80km/h +) roads then perhaps sit off to the side, but make yourself as visible as possible. Sometimes riding in the gutter is the worst thing you can do!!

Finally, use your brain. Of course there are going to be situations where you have to break the rules i.e. ride on a footpath, not signal correctly etc, but if you do things like ride between lanes of traffic and run red lights then honestly, aren't you asking for trouble....

[DYJK]

When they are playing road users, they think they have exclusive rights to the middle lane, but if they suddenly come to a red light, the pavement looks far more attractive, so they will swerve out of the middle lane, mount the pavement, and pretend to be pedestrians.
We can be "BI"...
I dont seem to have many problems, maybe because i dont drive but as already said what about motor bikes who swirve in between traffic? :?

[johnny]

When they are playing road users, they think they have exclusive rights to the middle lane, but if they suddenly come to a red light, the pavement looks far more attractive, so they will swerve out of the middle lane, mount the pavement, and pretend to be pedestrians.
We can be "BI"...
I dont seem to have many problems, maybe because i dont drive but as already said what about motor bikes who swirve in between traffic? :?

Umm, check your quotes, I didn't write that. As a matter of fact, I specifically disagreed with said opinion!

[S.]

Yeah I think I'll hit this one up too.

1. Want the whole lane to yourself then do the speed limit!!?? what a croc! do all cars do the speed limit? NO, I don't think my grandfather's car EVER hit 60! I didn't think that he should be driving if he couldn't keep up with traffic, but he and many others who drive slow are called "cautious drivers" Why not bike riders too?

2. Excuse me but many drivers (taxis busses many trucks) also drive with the "fvck everyone else" attitude too, but it only seems to be the bike riders that get singled out on the letters pages of the herald.

3. Yeah I DO bloody sit behind riders doing 20km until it's safe to pass, what do you think I do, run them off the bloody road or something? Sometimes it's the only option available, yes it can be frustrating. Although not as frustrating as being pushed off the road because some driver does not know the width of his/her car.

I'm a motorist :oops: and a rider :D and let me tell you, when diving on sydney roads, those who drive cars (that are infinitely more lethal than bikes) unsafely, VASTLY outnumber those who ride bikes unsafely. Who do you think will get hurt if a car hits a push bike?

Let me re-itterate my point. There are many more cars on the road that drive unsafely than bikes. Cars cause much more damage than bikes in accidents. Why do we continually allow bike riders to be scapegoated in order to further facillitate the lack of patience, selfishness and dominence of car drivers?

Sorry if that sounded a little angry, but you were very assuming and judgemental about people you haven't even met in your post. I for one feel that you have made erroneous assumptions and unfairly judged my behaviour as a cyclist, and a motorist.

1. I agree with Gutty. Why the hell should you hold up the flow of traffic (particularly in peak hours!) just to change lanes? Having spent a fair bit of time commuting through traffic, I know how hard it is to change lanes on a bike, but it's selfish and arrogant to assume that you should have right of way at all times just cos you want to change lanes. I got around that problem by just doing it at the lights, when everyone is stopped. Everyone wins. As for geriatrics sitting on 40 in a 60 zone, they too are a public nuisance. Yes, I hurl abuse at them (normally mentally, the other 90% of the time it's verbally) if they're holding everyone else up too.

2. IMO it's because heaps of cyclists bitch about motorists in general (as we're doing here), that they get counterattacked, which they/we then perceive as an affront to us, and bitch that we're being treated unfairly.

3. Like I said before, people who are going that much slower than the flow of traffic need to take some responsibility for themselves, and GET OUT OF THE WAY. Ride in the gutter, or on the footpath (slowly if you have to) or right on the edge of the lane/road, just stop obstructing the majority of people just so that you can have your self-righteous ideals asserted in public. Like you said, there's a shitload more car drivers around than bike riders - why should the minority of travelers cause such inconvenience to the majority? Not that I think bikes have no rights on the road, but it's just courtesy to get the hell out of the way of other people. If it's physically impossible, well then everyone's gonna have to bear with it till you CAN move out of the way, but if you can move out of the way/ride in the gutter/whatever, do so.

BTW - I don't have my licence, so don't bother with the selfish motorist bit.

[johnny]

Hah, what a laugh.

If you're picturing the normal cyclist, which I believe I am (and not a roadie, just a commuter or riding street) as some one who just rides in the middle of lanes just for the sake of some self righteous ideal, you are twisted.

Of course any person with common sense and decency will try and allow cars free passage. If there's room enough, such as two lanes, then then there's room to share. But if it's peek hour then I would/do ride cautiously on the footpath, waiting for walk signals with everyone else. I have actually been abused for riding at the pedestrian lights at a busy intersection once instead of getting in the way of cars!

In sydney, it has gotten to the point that you get abused if you're on the path or abused if you're on the road. What the fuck are we meant to do, even our trails are getting closed down! The thread is an on going sequence of letters and articles that have been printed in the Sydney Morning Herald, it seems to be a public battle ground for this topic in Sydney. So maybe you don't fully understand the context of this situation, but either way your assumptions of how we must ride up here leads me to believe that you may be prone to over dramatisation.

*edit for after thought. If I'm riding through the city in peek hour and I'm moving a hell of a lot faster than the cars, does that meen they should move for me?

[S.]

In sydney, it has gotten to the point that you get abused if you're on the path or abused if you're on the road. What the fuck are we meant to do, even our trails are getting closed down! The thread is an on going sequence of letters and articles that have been printed in the Sydney Morning Herald, it seems to be a public battle ground for this topic in Sydney. So maybe you don't fully understand the context of this situation, but either way your assumptions of how we must ride up here leads me to believe that you may be prone to over dramatisation.

Oh right, I was of the belief that you were all a bunch of tree-hugging, car-hating hippies who turned your noses up at all motorists just for the sake of it.

All I did was respond to your reply to Gutty. I didn't comment on how you ride, or invent scenarios that never happen. We get the same shit down here, don't worry. I just think the holier-than-thou approach is the best way to get rammed into a lamp post, if you're into that kind of thing. I do also find that there are plenty of drivers out there who are a danger to everyone else around them (especially if you're on a bike) but perhaps ironically to you, I find a lot of exaggeration in what other people say about them.

[johnny]

I guess my point is, yes there are shithouse drivers and dickhead cyclists. But in the both case the mojority is ok. In the SMH the cyclists have even been called "urban terrorists", it's in a thread here somewhere. No body I know ride around with some hollier than thou attitude, other than large groups of roadies.

I ride mostly through the city, and for the majority of the time I'm going faster than the flow of traffic and I still get abused. I don't hold up lanes when changing or any shit like that, I've never even seen anyone do that. I also drive through the city a lot, I've had no trouble accomodating for the cyclists but it probably helps being one.

As I said, it's probably a Sydney thing with all the letter writing and stuff. It just seems no matter what we do, road, footpath, trail, we gets shat on! What are you meant to do, say sorry and get off and walk?

[Gonzo]

Riding in the gutter is the stupidest thing you could ever do. It's just asking to be killed. firstly you have cars trying to drive right past you without giving you any room, plus riding next to the gutter means that when you copme to a side road or gutter you are very likely to get hit by cars. You very rarely see car drivers actually stop a the line. They usually stop about half a metre in front of it, right where you would be riding if you chose to be in the gutter. Then there is also the problem of car doors swinging out in front of you.

I got hit the other day while riding along a road with a huge cycle lane on the side. I was riding about 1 metre away from the land line where the traffic was. The car must'nt have seen me and swerved right in front of me clipping my handlebars. I was jst lucky not to end up under that guys tyres.

The only way you can be sure that car drivers will see you is by riding smack bang in front of you. If my choice is between holding up every car near me or putting myself in a situation where i have a very good chance of being hit, then guess what I am going to do?

You want a whole lane to yourself ? Do the speed limit.

When it says 60 on a sign it isn't a minimum speed limit it is in fact the maximum speed limit and so you can go any speed below that.

Yesterday while i saw someone pull out of their driveway then drive 4 houses down the road and stop there. It's people like this who are really clogging up the streets.

[Gutty]

No offence, but i have been run off the road so many times by people trying to sqeeze past me when i ride in the gutter. The only safe way to ride on sydney roads is to not let people get around you without having to move into the next lane, which means riding in the middle of the lane.

And if people decide to tail gate me and not give me space or start being abusive towards me beeping their horns, then i ride slower to piss them off.

Car drivers, just deal with it that not everyone wants to drive in a pollution machine.

That said, i don't ride on busy main roads as car drivers are just fucking nuts. I tend to ride back streets even if it takes longer to get where i am going.

As for running through red lights, car drivers do it, bus drivers do it, motor bikes do, taxis do it, pedestrians do it so i do it too. But if you run the red, you run the risk.

I will pay attention to all road rules the same day that all car drivers do, which is never.

-Matt

Matt, wouldn't it just be easier and safer for you to hop up the gutter for a few seconds and let that pushy motorist past ? In this situation i think footpaths should be used when possible. IMO peak hour traffic is no place for a cyclist......in the future in may be, but not in todays Sydney it aint.
If there are no cars around, run a muck for all i care.
I understand that some times bikes and cars have to share roads, my point is that if you are the lesser vehichle(and you are in size, weight, speed, safety) YOU are the one that needs to look out and do your best to get out of the "death machines" way. It might not be fare, but it might save your life one day. And don't think i'm just a preaching motorist here, i ride a moto on the road all the time. Believe me when i say that i ride VERY defensivly for my own benefit. As you've stated you simply can't rely on motorists in cars to miss you.......one day they won't. And for this reason i think cyclist have to stop thinking they have the rights cars do. By law they may, but common sense tell us that in reality, they don't. And until all motorist have atleast half an idea about driving thats not going to change. Letters to the paper or not........

To say you don't have to obey road rules because cars don't, and to say you can run red lights because cars do is just childish. I know for a fact that not all cars run red lights and disobey the road rules....I know because i'm one of the people that don't do it.
Just because Ivan Millat killed a bunch of people, doesn't mean you can too...... :wink:

Yes, i do believe most drivers on the road are tools too. Probably 90% have never had any kind of decent driving education as all drivers should.

Bottom line, play the arrogance game in traffic, and one day the car's gonna get ya. Not saying this is good, just saying it's fact.

[Gutty]

When it says 60 on a sign it isn't a minimum speed limit it is in fact the maximum speed limit and so you can go any speed below that.



I tell ya what, next time you're driving and there's cop behind you, slow down to 20-30km/h and see what he does.

Yes, you can be fined for driving too slow and disrupting traffic. :lol:

The only way you can be sure that car drivers will see you is by riding smack bang in front of you. If my choice is between holding up every car near me or putting myself in a situation where i have a very good chance of being hit, then guess what I am going to do?

Footpath is not an option ?? It's gotta be the safest of all doesn't it ?!?!

[Gutty]

I guess my point is, yes there are shithouse drivers and dickhead cyclists. But in the both case the mojority is ok. In the SMH the cyclists have even been called "urban terrorists", it's in a thread here somewhere. No body I know ride around with some hollier than thou attitude, other than large groups of roadies.



Jonny, i couldn't agree more.....only i believe that same attitude exists in single roadies too.
I don't have a problem with all cyclists...geez i often am one. I only have a problem with the arrogent types that believe cars should move for them.

[ona rampage]

3. Like I said before, people who are going that much slower than the flow of traffic need to take some responsibility for themselves, and GET OUT OF THE WAY. Ride in the gutter, or on the footpath (slowly if you have to) or right on the edge of the lane/road, just stop obstructing the majority of people just so that you can have your self-righteous ideals asserted in public. Like you said, there's a shitload more car drivers around than bike riders - why should the minority of travelers cause such inconvenience to the majority? Not that I think bikes have no rights on the road, but it's just courtesy to get the hell out of the way of other people. If it's physically impossible, well then everyone's gonna have to bear with it till you CAN move out of the way, but if you can move out of the way/ride in the gutter/whatever, do so.

I agree with S. on this one. I have been stuck behind two roadies one day, happy riding two abreast in one lane, blocking up the traffic, whilst they have a leisurely ride and chat. That is the minority making the majority bend to it's will, which is wrong.
Maybe there needs to be a differential here however, between the roadies (and here I generalise, but have to) who have this feeling that they own the damned road, and other riders who (like the majority on here) are just trying to use the road to get around (commute), and the occassional madness that we do for the city rides, ect.
But at the end of the day, regardless of who legally has the right of way, you're gonna go down in a battle between car and bike. No use having that sense of right when you are in hospital in a caste for 3 months....

[johnny]

[
Just because Ivan Millat killed a bunch of people, doesn't mean you can too...... :wink:

.

Now that's just nonsense, of course we can.

:P

[johnny]

Anyway, build some bloody bicycle lanes on the busy roads and everybody will be happy. I'm sure I've said this before, but Amsterdamn is the perfect model for this. I can't remember ever waking up and seeing the dirty brown cloud that Sydney has each morning either! Not to mention all the lovely fit looking ladies :D

*edit: worst spelling ever

[Gutty]

Anyway, build some bloody bicycle lanes on the busy roads and everybody will be happy. I'm sure I've said this before, but Amsterdamn is the perfect model for this. I can remember ever waking up ond seeing the dirty brown cloud that Sydney has each morning either! Not to mention all the lovely fit looking ladies :D

Now ya talk'n !!!

Down Wollongong way we have a cycleway that runs pretty much from the centre of the city to the northern most suburb before you hit the freeway all the way along the beach(where possible). I gets used by hundreds, possibly thousands of cyclists every week. It's fun, it's safe, you can ride it pissed without the cops chasing you or having to worry about cars and funnily enough, we don't have bugger all of a problem with cyclist in traffic down here. It's not until i reach Sydney each day that i run into(not literally) the roadies.
More cyleways/paths can only be a good thing for this entire country. To be totally honest, if the cycleway wasn't there, i'd probably ride my bike 50% less.......especially in summer.

[Cave Dweller]

To say you don't have to obey road rules because cars don't, and to say you can run red lights because cars do is just childish. I know for a fact that not all cars run red lights and disobey the road rules....I know because i'm one of the people that don't do it.
Just because Ivan Millat killed a bunch of people, doesn't mean you can too...... :wink:


.......and thats just like saying that all bike riders hog lanes and run red lights. Don't you love stereotypes :roll:

As for moving out of the way of cars behind me, no, i will not move and i don't give two shits if i make them 2 minutes late for work. They can deal with it, vent their frustration at me if they like but i really don't care about them, i care about me and my safety on roads. Anybody who rides in gutters or rides within 1 meter of parked car doors is asking to be hit one day, either by a car trying to squeeze past or someone opening there door on you.

That said, i avoid riding on main roads like the plauge and don't like riding in heavy traffic, but if i have too that is the tactic i take.

-Matt

[Cave Dweller]

My mate was riding down glebe point road the other day and was hit by a motorist. He was riding in the middle of the lane, doing 15kms under the speed limit (which was 50km/h, so he was riding 35km/h) when a car comes up behind him, starts tailgating him, beeping his horn and generally being a knob. My mate keeps riding at the same speed and this guy trys to run him over! No shit, happened just outside bad manners cafe. My mate got the number plate along with a couple of eye witnesses and went to the cops. He will be charged with leaving the scene of an accident and maybe with assult with a deadly weapon. The stupid thing was there where 15 cars stopped at red lights 25 meters down the road. Was he in that much of a hurry to get into the traffic cue??????

True story. No lie.

So, based on this i propose that all drivers be banned from using the roads as it is obvious that every car driver will hit a bike rider if given the chance. Ban the lot of them and make everyone ride bikes, then i will drive a car and run THEM of the fucking road :twisted:

[Gonzo]

I only have a problem with the arrogent types that believe cars should move for them.

But then don't you think it's a bit arrogant to expect all cyclists to just move out of your way on to the footpath whenever a car comes up behind them. Cyclists can also be in a rush.

[Gutty]

.......and thats just like saying that all bike riders hog lanes and run red lights. Don't you love stereotypes :roll:



ah yes, very true........but i never said that. :idea:

[Gutty]

I only have a problem with the arrogent types that believe cars should move for them.

But then don't you think it's a bit arrogant to expect all cyclists to just move out of your way on to the footpath whenever a car comes up behind them. Cyclists can also be in a rush.

I see you haven't replied to me about your original post, you've simply decided to find somthing else i've written and use it to stir more crap.....dickhead.. :roll:

No i don't expect all cyclist to move out of the way, but i do expect them to have some kind of sense when playing in peak hour traffic. Sad but true, they will come off second best every time. IMO the smart thing to do would be to avoid contact were possible.......hogging a whole lane to yourself in peak hour isn't exactly trying to avoid contact is it ??

Look, you guys wanna risk your lives, fine, go right ahead. But rest assured, if you wanna play chicken with cars, hogging a lane to yourself, and riding offensivly in traffic, one day your gonna get messed up.
As i've said, it might not be fare, but it is fact.

[johnny]

[IMO the smart thing to do would be to avoid contact were possible........

Absolutely.

In an attempt to resolve the difference of opinion here, can I suggest that we all unite under the banner of "cycle paths" as Gutty and I have previously proposed? IMO, this would resolve 99.9% of any gripes from either side. Considering the speculation of late that petrol prices will continue to rise, I think this suggestion is more appropriate than ever!

[Gutty]

Bravo Jonny !! :wink:

IMO all new arterial roads should be designed with a bike lane in mind. Especially around the CBD. But until that day comes i think the best thing any cyclist can do is be a bit defensive.

Be the cat in a room full of dogs, watch your back, and do your best to move if you're gonna get bitten. Don't sit idle and let the dog bite then whinge about it.......

[Cave Dweller]

I hope petrol rises to over $3 per litre, then people would start to car pool and take public transport, then there would be plenty of room on the roads for bike riders to exercise their lawful right to ride in the middle of the lane without fear of retribution from fucked up, temperamental, rude pollution machine drivers.

-Matt

[Cave Dweller]

i think the best thing any cyclist can do is be a bit defensive.


That is why it is safer to ride in the middle of the lane rather then in the gutter. Make the driver think about having to overtake you like a car rather then squeeze past you.

[Gutty]

i think the best thing any cyclist can do is be a bit defensive.


That is why it is safer to ride in the middle of the lane rather then in the gutter. Make the driver think about having to overtake you like a car rather then squeeze past you.

Well i guess thats a fare enough point Matt. Personally i'd get on the footpath if it were possible. But thats just me.......... :wink:

[Gonzo]

I see you haven't replied to me about your original post, you've simply decided to find somthing else i've written and use it to stir more crap.....dickhead.. :roll:



Well if you are going to be so pedantic then i shall answer your other post
although part of the answer was tied up in my other post. I see guys driving at that speed all the time on the roads and have never seen anyone pulled over for it.
You find it annying getting caught behind cyclists because you are in a rush to get somewhere i can only assume. Well if i am in a rush then it is much faster to ride on the road than to have to weave through pedestrians. Plus the fact that the footpath around where i live is ripped up by tree roots and the like. If i want to take an extra 30 minutes to get where i am giong then i will use the footpath, any other time i will use the road.

[Gutty]

So you see guys purposefully driving at 20-30km/h in peak hour traffic ?? Sorry, but i don't believe you.
Just because you see these guys drive slow and not get booked doesn't mean it never happens. Check the road rules down at your local RTA. You can be booked for disrupting traffic by driving too slow. It possibly never even happens(as one would expect), but it can.

Not anoyed because i'm in a rush, simply because i believe it's pretty much just selfishness(and dumb) on the riders behalf.

I'm done with this topic, i think you all know my opinion and where i stand. If any of you'd like to discuss this further, give me a yell and we can do it over a couple of beers ey ?? Much more fun that bashing away at this keyboard.

Ride safe guys. It really is in YOUR best interest.

[Techno Destructo]

Gutty, I actually agree with some of what you said... I feel that the slower you're going (on a bicycle), the more you should probably move from the center of the lane.

Matching the speed of traffic (or the speed limit)? Center lane is good. Like when going down hills... Especially if they're twisty...

But the bigger the difference in speed between me and the cars, the more to the side of the road I ride on. But not in the gutter and not right next to parked cars. I've learned my lesson the hard way with those...
:cry:

And for a long, steep hill, with busy traffic? Well, I'm either on an entirely different (and hopefully quieter) street, or if no pedestrians are around, maybe even on the footpath... though I don't want to perpetuate the notion many motorists have that cyclists shouldn't be on the roads.

But yeah, most people know I'm pretty militant about riding instead of driving. And I'd say it's about equal over my 22km commute of times when cars are passing me and I'm passing them...

In fact, I'm pretty proud I've got a 2003 car in the driveway, which I bought new, and it rarely gets driven.

Cyclists:
- If you are going considerably slower than the traffic, maybe try to ride on the left most side of the lane, unless there's a turn-off to the left approaching... in which case, get in the centre so you don't get cut off by a motorist turning in front of you. But of course, don't ride in the gutter and don't ride right next to parked cars (because of opening doors).
- Try to ride on the road as much as you feel comfortable with, because all this sidewalk riding actually works against us by giving motorists the impression that we shouldn't be on the roads.
- If commuting by bicycle is a regular thing... don't use your good bike. Save that for fun times (and avoid the wear and tear). Use a decent bike setup for riding on the road (ie. slicks), and put everything on it that the law demands, such as a bell, reflectors, etc... Wear a helmet, and wear high-visibility clothes if riding at night or in the rain. Give the motorists as little as possible to point the finger at.
- When I ride on the road, I hammer. It's better exercise, it gets me to my destination faster, and it annoys the motorists less if they see you giving it your all.
- If you are going to bend/break the rules, do it in a way that is NO RISK, completely safe, and BE AWARE. I don't take "un-necessary risks" but I do take "safe opportunities". You should follow the rules/laws, but the sooner I reach my destination, the sooner the motorists don't have to deal with me anymore. JUST BE SAFE ABOUT IT!

Motorists:
- Does the traffic suck? Too many cars? Look at all the single-occupancy vehicles out there. THEY are the problem. 6 cyclists can easily fit in the space that one car can. Imagine trading six spaces for cars on the road for one! Imagine how fast the road will become emptier! (People who car-pool, or need vehicles for their work, or other reasons why they can't ride a bicycle... you're excused.). See, instead of making people all drive cars, which actually will make your traffic worse by clogging it up more, you should encourage more people to bike, so that the roads clear up, less smog, less pollution, less noise, etc.... Wouldn't it be nice if everybody who could ride a bike to work, did? And if you needed to drive to work one day, for some reason, the roads wouldn't be clogged with traffic jams?
- Don't blame lack of bike paths or changing/shower facilities at work for never riding your bike. These things happen when enough voices are heard for them. ASK FOR THEM! We did it at our work, and within 3 months, we have dedicated showers and change facilities for all the cyclists here!
- If you see me breaking the rules, it's only because I feel the safest ride to work is the one where you take every SAFE opportunity available. I'm out of your face sooner, so you're happy. I'm at my destination sooner, so I'm happy. For people who honk at me, when I decide to break a rule, when there is total visibility, it's totally SAFE, and the only thing that's getting hurt is that person's sense of superiority of being in their motor vehicle.... get a life. If we had bike lanes, we wouldn't have to resort to these measures. Next time, ask your local MP so when the money's being thrown around at the election, some goes in a good direction.

Damn... I said I wasn't going to get into this so much again....

[Cave Dweller]

^^^^^^ Im with techno ^^^^^^

[S.]

As for moving out of the way of cars behind me, no, i will not move and i don't give two shits if i make them 2 minutes late for work. They can deal with it, vent their frustration at me if they like but i really don't care about them, i care about me and my safety on roads.

Naturally then, you have no problems with car drivers who don't care about cutting you off, running you off the road and so on. You can deal with it and vent your frustration at them if you like, but they really aren't obliged to care, they care about themselves and their own priorities. Right?

[Cave Dweller]

Naturally then, you have no problems with car drivers who don't care about cutting you off, running you off the road and so on. You can deal with it and vent your frustration at them if you like, but they really aren't obliged to care, they care about themselves and their own priorities. Right?

ummm.... yes, that is the attitude they have anyway so whats your point Socket???

I am hardly threatening their LIFE when i ride in the middle of the lane am i? Quite a large difference there mate.

[Techno Destructo]

CD, I'd just disregard Socket.

He just argues for the sake of arguing.

He'd argue with you if you said the sky was blue.

If the thread were in the defence of motorists, he'd be arguing that too.

Of course, he'll argue with me on this whole post.

I'd save your counterpoints for others...

[ponyrider]

I spent three years commuting on my mtb, kept a dedicated slicked-up wheelset just for that purpose and I used to love dragging off lycra-clad 700cc-rs up the hill on King St ;-)
...but honestly I don't know why I'm still alive today. I'm not the sort to back down and I had that many rage incidents it was well beyond a joke. Typically I'd be tailgated, somewhere like the King St climb (with two additional lanes the car could pass in), then beeped at, abused or have something thrown at me, the latter of which would ensure I'd give chase to the next red light. Then it would be on...
Most drivers don't expect that, and when you are riding and the endorphins are pumping you feel like you are fully up for a stoush so you go with it hoping you haven't picked someone criminally dangerous :-/
The fact that I obeyed every traffic rule going just made me more obstinate. Hell, I'd even stop at those red light non-side street crossing, and feel like a bit of a goose for not riding through but I did it because I expected drivers to obey the rules too, giving me my legal rights. Some did, but a lot didn't. Fact is I'm not going to kill someone in a car if I slam into them on my steed, but they will most certainly do me and that's what counts - consideration for the most vulnerable party. It's a no brainer. So is riding to the road rules, and I also had no qualms about giving a gobfull to those errant fellow cyclists I met.
I commute by car now due to a non-CBD workplace, but every cyclist I encounter when I'm behind the wheel gets my full, undivided attention and if I have to follow them at 35 kph for 5 blocks I feel all the better I'm protecting their back from some other ignorant motorist behind me ;-)

[wombat]

I hope petrol rises to over $3 per litre, then people would start to car pool and take public transport, then there would be plenty of room on the roads for bike riders to exercise their lawful right to ride in the middle of the lane without fear of retribution from fucked up, temperamental, rude pollution machine drivers.

-Matt
I know that cycling everywhere is great in theory, but as soon as you move outside of the CBD, life gets a lot more difficult:

I live about 15 minutes away from Richmond in NSW; we're hardly the bush, but for me, riding or using public transport to get to and from uni is not an option. The uni commute is a 120km round trip, and for me to get public transport, I would have to catch one of our 3 daily buses from my home (which are at entirely useless times), get onto the train at richmond, take that to blacktown, and change to another train to get to pentrith. Then wait for another bus so that I can get to uni.

Taking public transport would mean turning a 50-60 minute journey into a 2 hour journey, and that's only if the train and bus times actually lined up, which I know they don't.
As for riding, well for anyone who has seen the hills I drive everyday to get to and from home, you'd know that it isn't exactly a practical thing to do 6 days a week. Car pooling is something I used to do when I drove to school, but unfortunately I don't share a timetable or destination with anyone else around here, so it's no longer possible.

I would love to be able to ride to and from uni and work, not least for the fitness improvement, but it is not realistically possible for me, or most of the other people that live in this area. $3 per litre petrol might not hurt you guys in the city too much but considering our atrocious public transport network, around here it would make life very difficult.

[S.]

Naturally then, you have no problems with car drivers who don't care about cutting you off, running you off the road and so on. You can deal with it and vent your frustration at them if you like, but they really aren't obliged to care, they care about themselves and their own priorities. Right?

ummm.... yes, that is the attitude they have anyway so whats your point Socket???

As long as you're not complaining...
Edit: because I know you won't understand my "point", what I'm saying is that it's totally retarded to say "I don't care about them, I only care about me" then not expect them to do the same thing. It just so happens that you have the law of physics against you, should you be involved in a collision - but might I remind you, that was your morally-correct choice...

CD, I'd just disregard Socket.

He just argues for the sake of arguing.

He'd argue with you if you said the sky was blue.

If the thread were in the defence of motorists, he'd be arguing that too.

Of course, he'll argue with me on this whole post.

I'd save your counterpoints for others...

You're right.

[johnny]

S. You still haven't answered my question. If I'm riding through peak hour traffic and I'm moving faster than the cars, should they then get out of my way?

If we have to move when holding up traffic, how's about they move for me when they hold me up. The law says I have a legal right to be on the road, So my question is: Do the courtesies allowed to drivers by cyclists ever transfer over to cyclists when the situaion is reversed?

*edit, wish I'd read Techno's post before I wrote that.......


So, if as Techno says, all you have to do is ask, here it is.

These are all feedback/complaints/request pages of all our major councils. I'm not up on the whole funding issues with projects like these, but my bet is the council is the place to start.

I suggest you be polite, respectful and distinct in what it is you are asking for. Bike lanes, Designated riding tracks, skate park, BMX track or better locking facilities. Make sure you fill in all your details, DO NOT WRITE ANONYMOUSLY OR YOU WILL BE IGNORED. It's not something you should be guarded about anyway, your (mums and dads)taxes/rates pay these people. They are our employees, now it's up to you to politely start representing your subset of the community to these employees so's you get your money's worth out of them.

Send an email once a week until you recieve a reply. If you don't get a reply, send one each day. Make sure that you remain polite, but make sure you let them know that you won't go away. If they don't reply at all, call their number. The Perth site even has the lord Mayor and all the other reps' phone numbers on it :shock: Write letters by mail or even request an appointment with the appropriate person.

If you want to get what you are paying for, let them know what it is that you want.

I might whack up a new thread for this too, so everybody is aware of it. Hope the mods/admins don't mind the duplicity :oops:

Now get writing!


Sydney city council
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/cu_complaints_comment.asp

Melbourne council
http://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/info.cfm?top=23&pg=1527

Brisbane council = shitty site. You have to go to this page, check which region you are in and email the appropriate person. They're all listed here, not hard, just a nuisance.
http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/BCC:STANDARD:1909438097:pc=PC_5

This is a forum address, not entirely the best avenue, but none other than the mayors address were there. On the brightside though, read the page and check out how easy it is to set up a council forum. 25 riders and possibly some mums and dads of the younger riders and you may have yourself a real little pressure group going! Seriously easy stuff to do and the avenue is there for you to use it.
forums@cityofperth.wa.gov.au.


Adelaide council
http://www.adelaidecitycouncil.com/apps/feedback/default.asp

Queenbeyan council (Canberra)
http://www.qcc.nsw.gov.au/Feedback.aspx

Hobart council
vineyr@mailnet.hcc.tas.gov.au

Sorry Darwin and the other areas like Townsville and Armidale, but you'll have to google it yourselves, my fingers are tired.

[johnny]

nd it continues.....

Make way for bikes



I am an architect working on a new residential development in Alexandria.

The council has stipulated that the development provide 42 Class 1 bicycle spaces - individual, enclosed and lockable. This is a substantial cost to the buyers imposed by the council to facilitate bicycle use.

At the moment no sane person would attempt to ride the traffic sewers of McEvoy Street and Botany Road, which this development bounds. When will Sydney City Council reciprocate and provide dedicated commuter (not just recreational) cycle ways?

Peter Rush, Marrickville, October 7.

When I was a child, I learned to ride a bicycle, just like everybody else my age. It seems, however, that an increasing number are reaching adulthood without this basic skill, and find themselves forced to carry around what amount to nothing more than fashion accessories. Here's a hint: bicycles were designed to be sat upon and propelled by manipulation of the pedals, not to block train vestibules and be propelled by Tangara at peak hour.

[Techno Destructo]

When I was a child, I learned to ride a bicycle, just like everybody else my age. It seems, however, that an increasing number are reaching adulthood without this basic skill, and find themselves forced to carry around what amount to nothing more than fashion accessories. Here's a hint: bicycles were designed to be sat upon and propelled by manipulation of the pedals, not to block train vestibules and be propelled by Tangara at peak hour.

That's a bit of a weird quote...

I agree with how nuts it is with grown people not being able to ride a bike (hell, it's as weird as somebody not knowing how to swim!).

But the "fashion accessory", blocking train vestibules and propelled by Tangara?

Please explain? :?

[johnny]

yeah that bloke can jam it up his clacker! I ride my bike to the station, catch the train to uni and back again. If it is peak hour, I either ride all the way, or go to the library for a while. I mean FFS, I'm happy to be jammed in the train with a bike (they pay for the service, both person and bike) if it means taking a car off the road.

Some people seriously just want things the way that suits THEM best. The ME ME ME factor. It is seriously the cause of the worlds probs today, mememe on the roads, mememe in foreign policy and everything that is in between. When I'm finished my undergrad, I'm moving to Scandanavia. I fucking hate this place, I don't belong here.

[Techno Destructo]

I fucking hate this place, I don't belong here.

If little Johnny is voted back into office, I might do the same, except back to Canada.

This country is swinging WAY too much to the right for me to handle...

But I digress...

[Grip]

IMO all new arterial roads should be designed with a bike lane in mind. Especially around the CBD. But until that day comes i think the best thing any cyclist can do is be a bit defensive. ...

There's a whole big bunch of people out there actually advocating anfd fighting for just this sort of thing.

You want to help? (directed at EVERYONE) Then join AND get involved with your local BUG (Bicycle Users Group) and also join AND get involved with your State Bicycling Association such as Bicycle Vic, Bicycle NSW and Bicycle SA.

These are NON-sporting bodies out there promoting and advocating for cycling in general.

No use whinging. Never has been... never will be.

[naz]

When I was a child, I learned to ride a bicycle, just like everybody else my age. It seems, however, that an increasing number are reaching adulthood without this basic skill, and find themselves forced to carry around what amount to nothing more than fashion accessories. Here's a hint: bicycles were designed to be sat upon and propelled by manipulation of the pedals, not to block train vestibules and be propelled by Tangara at peak hour.

That's a bit of a weird quote...

I agree with how nuts it is with grown people not being able to ride a bike (hell, it's as weird as somebody not knowing how to swim!).

But the "fashion accessory", blocking train vestibules and propelled by Tangara?

Please explain? :?

Rob its slang for 'he takes his bike ON A TRAIN' u know railways, stations, etc :P

what a idiot, people with bikes during peak hour are made to buy a extra ticket so all those business people can go suck a dick, fuck it if u get grease on there pants dont stand so close to my bike :twisted:

[Rik]

Hrm... maybe. Bikees+trains makes for a great combination when it comes to travelling. But just because you buy a ticket for your bike, doesn't give you a right to impact on other travellers. Let's face it, a bicycle on a train in peak hour is silly, you have a hard time getting around the station/carraige, and you inconvenience ALOT of people in the process... a bicycle will take up the space of at least 3 people, and make life difficult for everyone else nearby. Whilst I'd love to be able to travel on peak hour with my bike (and wish there was dedicated bicycle storage on suburban trains), not only is it a PITA, it's just more bad publicity for bikes, and something more for the whingers to write letters about.

[Techno Destructo]

But the "fashion accessory", blocking train vestibules and propelled by Tangara?

Please explain? :?

Rob its slang for 'he takes his bike ON A TRAIN' u know railways, stations, etc :P

Ahhh... Thanks Naz!

I thought it was something about riding on trains, but since I don't know what "Tangara" is, it almost sounded like it was a drug, like Viagra. :oops: :lol:

Wow... whoever wrote that originally quote... wotta guy! We try to do the right thing by riding bikes, some people have a long distance to travel so they need a train as well, and because you don't ride the whole distance, they become "fashion accessories"? WTF? :roll:

I agree with you Johnny... how the hell do you please some people?

[olly1oo6]

I drive everyday and see the stupid things people do and I'd rather not take the risk.
yeah for sure i almost got runovr yesterday by a lady in a ute who swerved towards me when she saw i was on a bike, not to mention the countless number of fingers and horns for riding on the road, evn though it didnt affect the traffic in the slightest.

i think its because cyclists have built up a culture of being unpredictable on the road that we get so much abuse. ive been overseas and realised how the culture difference has affected cycling, almost evryone in europe gets around on a bike and no one gives a toss, whereas here, you are constantly abused by people in cars for riding a bike, they should realise theyre doing much more damage than we are.

[Techno Destructo]

There is something to be said about regularly taking a bicycle on a train that should be addressed.

You're right, Rik. We can't infringe upon other people, simply because we have a bike, and we think it's our right.

Occasional trips on the train with a bike is one thing... but if it's a regular occurrence, I think we have a responsibility to use a bike that is more designed for that kind of travel flexibility, like a Birdy, a Bike Friday, or some other kind of foldable bike.

Heh... those are brands that aren't heard very often on this site, eh?

[Rik]

Just imagine... if one carraige vestibule out of every train was a dedicated bike storage area. Oh how great that would be for cycling, fitness, traffic congestion, pollution etc. I can dream, can't I :oops:

[chips_with_everything]

I ride to work, and use the train for 40km of a total 60 each way.

Generally I do avoid the packed trains. However I do have to get to work, otherwise I'll get fired. I'm not there to assert my right and annoy people.

So unfortunately on occasion people do have to tolerate my bike in a crowded carriage. Most people understand this reality, and are OK.



The lack of accommodation is the Government's problem. They can fix it. We pay tax and fares for them to do their jobs.

I have no choice, I have to do mine. So do most other cyclists using trains I expect.

[flyingmonkey*(+.+)*]

same, S is right in saying that

true i luv riding but also it pisses the hell out of me when im driving and there are cyclists going slower then the speed limit and holding up the flow of traffic

and apparently a cpl of years ago the rules about riding on the footpath were as such

if ur under 12 or a young age had to ride on the footpath

if ur bike was a large size ie 26 inches then u had to ride on the road

some cop quoted that stuff to me and my dad when we were riding like 3 years ago


the government needs to pull their fingers out of the arse and actually make special bike sections on the edge of the road, they have em somewhere but not everywhere, and since cyclist have the same road rights as a driver they should include areas for us to ride so as we dont disrupt the flow of traffic and put our lives at danger, damn aggressive drivers.

[S.]

S. You still haven't answered my question. If I'm riding through peak hour traffic and I'm moving faster than the cars, should they then get out of my way?

If we have to move when holding up traffic, how's about they move for me when they hold me up. The law says I have a legal right to be on the road, So my question is: Do the courtesies allowed to drivers by cyclists ever transfer over to cyclists when the situaion is reversed?


Absolutely, if it's physically possible for cars to just drive along the footpath or near the gutter to let you past - and that's assuming you need the space. I mean, it's not like the reason they aren't going faster than you is because they're boxed in on all sides or anything. In case you're not aware of the physical properties of cars, they can't pick themselves up and turn 90/180 degrees on the spot (whilst not moving) or bunnyhop onto gutters, or even split lanes in heavy traffic. I would hazard a guess that you however, on your bike, can do all those things.

[johnny]

S. You still haven't answered my question. If I'm riding through peak hour traffic and I'm moving faster than the cars, should they then get out of my way?

If we have to move when holding up traffic, how's about they move for me when they hold me up. The law says I have a legal right to be on the road, So my question is: Do the courtesies allowed to drivers by cyclists ever transfer over to cyclists when the situaion is reversed?


Absolutely, if it's physically possible for cars to just drive along the footpath or near the gutter to let you past - and that's assuming you need the space. I mean, it's not like the reason they aren't going faster than you is because they're boxed in on all sides or anything. In case you're not aware of the physical properties of cars, they can't pick themselves up and turn 90/180 degrees on the spot (whilst not moving) or bunnyhop onto gutters, or even split lanes in heavy traffic. I would hazard a guess that you however, on your bike, can do all those things.

so therefore, what you are saying is that bicycles don't have the same rights on the road as cars? If that is the case, then your argument is not with the cyclist, but with those who make the law. Go winge to them (I know you are not winging, I just thought I'd say that :P ).

[johnny]

Hrm... maybe. Bikees+trains makes for a great combination when it comes to travelling. But just because you buy a ticket for your bike, doesn't give you a right to impact on other travellers. Let's face it, a bicycle on a train in peak hour is silly, you have a hard time getting around the station/carraige, and you inconvenience ALOT of people in the process... a bicycle will take up the space of at least 3 people, and make life difficult for everyone else nearby. Whilst I'd love to be able to travel on peak hour with my bike (and wish there was dedicated bicycle storage on suburban trains), not only is it a PITA, it's just more bad publicity for bikes, and something more for the whingers to write letters about.

So individual travellers are allowed to inconvinience bike users. I take my bike on trains most days, albeit not during peak hour, and I see many other bike users doing the same. So under this perspective, anyone with travel bags (of the larger variety) those with amounts of shopping (say four bags or more) or those with baby strollers (carry the child) or wheel chairs (catch a taxi) should not travel during peak hour. Once again, we are working fully within the law by purchasing a ticket for a bikes and taking them on the train. If somebody feels that they are inconvinienced by a bike on trains, their gripe is not with the cyclist, but those who made the law allowing us to do this.

I also believe that you have addressed this problem with the suggestion of dedicated bike vesicle thingys. But as with roads, if somebody is acting within the law, your problem is not with them, but the law itself.

[S.]

S. You still haven't answered my question. If I'm riding through peak hour traffic and I'm moving faster than the cars, should they then get out of my way?

If we have to move when holding up traffic, how's about they move for me when they hold me up. The law says I have a legal right to be on the road, So my question is: Do the courtesies allowed to drivers by cyclists ever transfer over to cyclists when the situaion is reversed?


Absolutely, if it's physically possible for cars to just drive along the footpath or near the gutter to let you past - and that's assuming you need the space. I mean, it's not like the reason they aren't going faster than you is because they're boxed in on all sides or anything. In case you're not aware of the physical properties of cars, they can't pick themselves up and turn 90/180 degrees on the spot (whilst not moving) or bunnyhop onto gutters, or even split lanes in heavy traffic. I would hazard a guess that you however, on your bike, can do all those things.

so therefore, what you are saying is that bicycles don't have the same rights on the road as cars? If that is the case, then your argument is not with the cyclist, but with those who make the law. Go winge to them (I know you are not winging, I just thought I'd say that :P ).

If I'd meant that, I would have said that. Note that I did not say that, therefore I did not mean that. Anyone who holds up other people simply because they can't or won't travel at the speed limit OR with the flow of traffic (whichever is appropriate at the time) should make an effort to get out of the way. This isn't always possible, but when it is, get the hell out of the way. If some old grandma is driving along at 20km/h in front of you, yes, she IS "in the wrong" by the same logic. However that very rarely happens, so it's not an issue.

The reason I got all pissed was due to Cave Dweller's comment along the lines of "I don't care about anyone else on the road, they should care about me". Regardless of whether you're on a bike, a car, or whatever, just show some courtesy to other road users.

P.S. in all my time riding on the road (which is probably not a lot compared to some riders such as couriers) I've very rarely been cut off, sworn at, had deliberate attempts made on my life by maniac drivers (as some people here claim has happened to them), etc etc any more than I've had happen whilst I'm in a car. I think as cyclists, most people here are grossly exaggerating the case against motorists simply because they're "them" and we're "us".

[S.]

Hrm... maybe. Bikees+trains makes for a great combination when it comes to travelling. But just because you buy a ticket for your bike, doesn't give you a right to impact on other travellers. Let's face it, a bicycle on a train in peak hour is silly, you have a hard time getting around the station/carraige, and you inconvenience ALOT of people in the process... a bicycle will take up the space of at least 3 people, and make life difficult for everyone else nearby. Whilst I'd love to be able to travel on peak hour with my bike (and wish there was dedicated bicycle storage on suburban trains), not only is it a PITA, it's just more bad publicity for bikes, and something more for the whingers to write letters about.

So individual travellers are allowed to inconvinience bike users. I take my bike on trains most days, albeit not during peak hour, and I see many other bike users doing the same. So under this perspective, anyone with travel bags (of the larger variety) those with amounts of shopping (say four bags or more) or those with baby strollers (carry the child) or wheel chairs (catch a taxi) should not travel during peak hour. Once again, we are working fully within the law by purchasing a ticket for a bikes and taking them on the train. If somebody feels that they are inconvinienced by a bike on trains, their gripe is not with the cyclist, but those who made the law allowing us to do this.

I also believe that you have addressed this problem with the suggestion of dedicated bike vesicle thingys. But as with roads, if somebody is acting within the law, your problem is not with them, but the law itself.

Your logic is a bit retarded there..."Carry the child"? Why get the train if you've got a perfectly good bike - ride it!

[Rik]

So individual travellers are allowed to inconvinience bike users. I take my bike on trains most days, albeit not during peak hour, and I see many other bike users doing the same. So under this perspective, anyone with travel bags (of the larger variety) those with amounts of shopping (say four bags or more) or those with baby strollers (carry the child) or wheel chairs (catch a taxi) should not travel during peak hour. Once again, we are working fully within the law by purchasing a ticket for a bikes and taking them on the train. If somebody feels that they are inconvinienced by a bike on trains, their gripe is not with the cyclist, but those who made the law allowing us to do this.Pretty much, yeh. Acting within the law, and acting within politeness and respect are two different things to me. Taking big bags, prams/strollers, and to an extent, wheelchairs, on peak hour is going to be a hassle for everyone. To me, if I'm going to negatively impact on alot of people through my actions, I will try my best to avoid doing it, no matter how right/wrong I am within the law. Just look at all the negative PR bikes on trains in peak hour gives cyclists in general, sure, the riders are in the right, but it's pissing off alot of commuters, and giving them one more reason to whinge about bicycles and users. There's alot of things that are legal, that will affect others... just because it is your right to do so by law, is it also your right to cause inconvenience to others in the process, when you can avoid it? It's just how I see things, it may not be the best way, but if I'm a minority and I'm going to do more harm than good (ie, PR) through my actions, I will try to not do it. And that includes taking a bike on peak hour. Just look at the Nothern/Western train line, if I get on at Burwood, there's hardly enough room for passengers, let alone a bike. If I get on with my bike, at least 4 other people won't be able to get on, and a bit of courtesy says that that's not cool.

[S.]

Well said Rik.

[johnny]

Hrm... maybe. Bikees+trains makes for a great combination when it comes to travelling. But just because you buy a ticket for your bike, doesn't give you a right to impact on other travellers. Let's face it, a bicycle on a train in peak hour is silly, you have a hard time getting around the station/carraige, and you inconvenience ALOT of people in the process... a bicycle will take up the space of at least 3 people, and make life difficult for everyone else nearby. Whilst I'd love to be able to travel on peak hour with my bike (and wish there was dedicated bicycle storage on suburban trains), not only is it a PITA, it's just more bad publicity for bikes, and something more for the whingers to write letters about.

So individual travellers are allowed to inconvinience bike users. I take my bike on trains most days, albeit not during peak hour, and I see many other bike users doing the same. So under this perspective, anyone with travel bags (of the larger variety) those with amounts of shopping (say four bags or more) or those with baby strollers (carry the child) or wheel chairs (catch a taxi) should not travel during peak hour. Once again, we are working fully within the law by purchasing a ticket for a bikes and taking them on the train. If somebody feels that they are inconvinienced by a bike on trains, their gripe is not with the cyclist, but those who made the law allowing us to do this.

I also believe that you have addressed this problem with the suggestion of dedicated bike vesicle thingys. But as with roads, if somebody is acting within the law, your problem is not with them, but the law itself.

Your logic is a bit retarded there..."Carry the child"? Why get the train if you've got a perfectly good bike - ride it!

What, are you saying that it's impossible to carry a child? I guess I must be hallucinating when I see people using the carry bassinets (sp?) that double up as car capsules, I guess all those back/front pack things are a figment of my imagination and I never actually carried my friends daughter around for hours the other day......

Why get a train when I have a bike, umm hello, McFly........ what if I'm going a great distance? What if I don't have the time? What if there aren't any shower facilities where I'm going? Surely that was a rather assupmtive (is that a word :? ) thing to say :roll: BTW, I also ride a chase, shithouse for commuting, excelent for riding too and from the train station. I'm also 32 years of age and carry many injuries from jumping out of too many planes, I could go all night giving reasons why your point is redundant......

I will also remind you both that I have already said that I don't catch trains in peak hour with my bike. It's just that we can't ride on the roads because we hold up traffic or get abused (no us and them thing here I drive cars too, abuse happens regularly and I truly do believe that there is a great culture difference between Sydney & Melbourne, Melbourne being a much friendlier place) We can't ride on the footpath I think it's illegal but haven't checked yet, and we get abused, we can't ride on bush trails because of danger to walkers and enviro degradation, we can't build jumps on public land because of liability, we can't take a bike on trains when they are busy because others have more rights than us ( I disagree that a bike takes the space of four people, I say two).

It seems that we always come out with the shit end of the stick in every situation. I think we have just as many rights as everyone else, we pay same taxes/rates, we get prosocuted by the same laws and yet we seem to suffer the most sanction.

I agree, don't hold up traffic if you can help it, don't destroy bush areas under any circumstance (destroy means ruin beyond repair in this context) and don't expect to be able to jam your bike into a packed train. But when will the rest of the community start showing some give and take or consideration to us?

[Rik]

But when will the rest of the community start showing some give and take or consideration to us?When there is a major change in culture/mentality. Something that being forceful about won't help acheive. So whilst I applaud militant bicycle advocates for the cause they beleive in, going about it the wrong way will end up doing more harm than good... and I sigh when I read alot of the letters in the papar, and even some of the attitudes displayed in this thread. The "fuck'em, it's my right, now get out of my way" behaviour won't get very far in acheving widespread acceptance of bicycles as a legitmate form of transport and sport.

[timduncan]

sorry i have to say something I'm sick of watching this go onnnn........ i love bicycles i ride road and mountain bikes and don't have a real big problem with the roads some people beep some people yell nice bike but either way if your not doing the wrong thing i wouldn't listen to them ... i think everyone agrees a descent bike lane along roads would be something to be smiling about but lets not forget sharing ... ( geez I'm sounding old here )... a motorists is just another person. :wink:

[johnny]

But when will the rest of the community start showing some give and take or consideration to us?When there is a major change in culture/mentality. Something that being forceful about won't help acheive. So whilst I applaud militant bicycle advocates for the cause they beleive in, going about it the wrong way will end up doing more harm than good... and I sigh when I read alot of the letters in the papar, and even some of the attitudes displayed in this thread. The "fuck'em, it's my right, now get out of my way" behaviour won't get very far in acheving widespread acceptance of bicycles as a legitmate form of transport and sport.

I certainly agree with everthing that you have said, and I hope you don't put me in the "militant" basket for what I have written here. I just think we are taking too much of a backward step if we let everyone else get their way with every issue.

As I have said, I agree, do not hold up traffic, crowd the trains or destroy the bush, but if we don't start to stand up for ourselves we will end up with nothing. Standing up for ourselves does not mean riding in the middle of the road, crowding trains or wrecking the bush. It means writing letters to our local, state, federal representatives. You may notice in this thread and another, I have posted details of where to write to the council of our capital cities. I'm puting my money where my mouth is, how about you guys?

[S.]

What, are you saying that it's impossible to carry a child? I guess I must be hallucinating when I see people using the carry bassinets (sp?) that double up as car capsules, I guess all those back/front pack things are a figment of my imagination and I never actually carried my friends daughter around for hours the other day......

Why get a train when I have a bike, umm hello, McFly........ what if I'm going a great distance? What if I don't have the time? What if there aren't any shower facilities where I'm going? Surely that was a rather assupmtive (is that a word :? ) thing to say :roll: BTW, I also ride a chase, shithouse for commuting, excelent for riding too and from the train station. I'm also 32 years of age and carry many injuries from jumping out of too many planes, I could go all night giving reasons why your point is redundant......


The post was intentionally ironic... meaning to point out the correlation between doing something because it's possible, and doing something because it's feasible/comfortable - the flaw in the logic of the argument you made a few posts up. I don't expect people to ride 70km trips on a bike, but nor do I expect people to carry their child around all day (especially those who have more than one kid). Both are easily within the realm of "physically possible", but they're inconvenient in many ways. Get me now?

I will also remind you both that I have already said that I don't catch trains in peak hour with my bike. It's just that we can't ride on the roads because we hold up traffic or get abused (no us and them thing here I drive cars too, abuse happens regularly and I truly do believe that there is a great culture difference between Sydney & Melbourne, Melbourne being a much friendlier place) We can't ride on the footpath I think it's illegal but haven't checked yet, and we get abused, we can't ride on bush trails because of danger to walkers and enviro degradation, we can't build jumps on public land because of liability, we can't take a bike on trains when they are busy because others have more rights than us ( I disagree that a bike takes the space of four people, I say two).

I get what ya mean, but to me your arguments are/were like a lot of the really disruptive political "activists" at my uni - they make a nuisance of themselves and simply cause more people to get pissed off at them than to actually listen to what they have to say. One thing to stand up for your rights, another to simply piss people off whilst doing it. A lot of cyclists do REALLY dumb things on the road (I've done my share + a bit) that piss drivers off no end, and I'm not at all surprised at the animosity towards cyclists, considering. Oh btw, a bike will easily take up the space that 3 or 4 people could occupy in standing room in a crowded train. Volumetrically it's a lot smaller than a person (I think it's probably equivalent to about the same as a person's legs or something) but it's inflexible and takes up a lot of room horizontally, which standing people do not.

It seems that we always come out with the shit end of the stick in every situation. I think we have just as many rights as everyone else, we pay same taxes/rates, we get prosocuted by the same laws and yet we seem to suffer the most sanction.

I agree, don't hold up traffic if you can help it, don't destroy bush areas under any circumstance (destroy means ruin beyond repair in this context) and don't expect to be able to jam your bike into a packed train. But when will the rest of the community start showing some give and take or consideration to us?

I think you've got a pretty one-sided view there. As far as I'm concerned, people aren't out to get me/prosecute me/deliberately persecute me...

[W2ttsy]

Oh btw, a bike will easily take up the space that 3 or 4 people could occupy in standing room in a crowded train. Volumetrically it's a lot smaller than a person (I think it's probably equivalent to about the same as a person's legs or something) but it's inflexible and takes up a lot of room horizontally, which standing people do not.

when i am in melbourne, and i have my bike on the train, i try to travel post peak hour, and if i am in a slighty full carraige, i get the bike up on the back wheel and thus it only takes up the space of an extra person, instead of two or three. its a hassle but works. i also try to stick it up against the door, where no one is supposed to be.

of course, in hobart, riding is alot different. i live out at austins ferry, which is about a 35 minute ride for me into the CBD. i have no troubles riding on the bike track. and when the weather is too poor for riding i catch the bus, which is cheap and better than driving.

W2ttsy

[johnny]

Some interesting ones today!

The right to ride a bike


It is wonderful news that the City of Sydney is considering serious improvements to cycling infrastructure in the city ("On your bike: City of Sydney decides cycle plan isn't roadworthy", Herald, October 15).

Thank God for a council which at last has the vision to encourage a healthier and more environmentally friendly way to get to work. Like many working parents I don't have the time to drive to a gym for exercise each day, so I'm pleased to hear my city cycle commute will become a less risky exercise. The last city council said there was no need for improved cycle infrastructure because there were so few cyclists, with no appreciation that it was the lack of cycleways that lead to the lack of cyclists.

Simon Bolton, Dulwich Hill, October 15.

How many more cyclists will die before the the RTA and all local councils get serious about providing a safe cycling environment? Surely every child, adult and older citizen is entitled to ride or walk to work, school or shops without having to negotiate dangerous roads or breathe noxious fumes. If every cyclist involved in a road accident sued their council and the RTA for failing to provide a safe environment might we see a change in attitude.

Michael McGrath, Manly Vale, October 15.

[Techno Destructo]

Ah yes... my favorite argument of all time...

"We don't have to build cycleways because there aren't enough cyclists."

We should hold a poll for this. Do they say this line because:

a) They are actually not very intelligent.
or
b) It's an uber weak attempt at shirking their responsibilities.

[johnny]

I believe your poll is inherantly (is that the right word.... :? ) flawed, because:

A=b & B also =A

Poll should read:

Do they say this line because:


a) It's an uber weak attempt at shirking their responsibilities because they are actually not very intelligent.

or

b) [Insert anything here because any answer other than A, is quite obviously false]

[powermutant]

One of the things that has continually popped up in this thread is getting stuck behind cyclists on the road, and given that this is a cycling forum I am quite surprised with some of the attitudes displayed. So, a few points to consider:

1. You are in control of 2 tonnes of deadly metal. Hit a pedestrian or a cyclist and you will kill or seriously hurt them. Sure people do stupid things, but they do not deserve to die or be maimed. Hurting or killing someone is bad. Visit a hospital or go to a few funerals if you have doubts. Driving a car is a huge privilege and responsibility, not a $deity given right.

2. Is getting held up for 30 seconds, hell, even a few minutes before being able to safely pass a cyclist such a big deal. You'll happily sit through ads on tv, you'll sit at a red light and not complain. Does it really matter if your trip takes 30 minutes or 33 minutes?

3. "Cyclists are too slow". Yet you'll happily sit in peak hour averaging 12-18 km/h behind the car in front of you which is crawling along and not try to squeeze past.

4. Cyclists are legally bound to ride on the road. Cyclists are legally entitled to ride two abreast.

Cheers,
Doug.

[cambowambo]

Doug you are absolutely right on all points, but your first point highlights the problem for cyclists: drivers (at least drivers in Sydney, in my experience) have no thoughts about a cyclist in front of them other than how that cyclist is inconveniencing them - either by delaying, obstructing, moving when they're stuck or stopped, or just by existing. Most drivers in Sydney these days seem to be *either* totally unaware of what is around them *or* experiencing a degree of road rage - both of which make them a danger to cyclists.

There is no rational "I'm driving 2 tonnes of metal so I'd better be careful" thought in any driver's mind at any time.

How you get drivers to think this way I don't know - probably by an active education and serious law enforcement programme which is never going to happen. Another solution iwould be separate cycle ways but that isn't going to happen here either.

So cyclists will continue to be at risk on the roads. Better to ride mountain bikes off road and avoid the problem :-)

[S.]

One of the things that has continually popped up in this thread is getting stuck behind cyclists on the road, and given that this is a cycling forum I am quite surprised with some of the attitudes displayed. So, a few points to consider:

1. You are in control of 2 tonnes of deadly metal. Hit a pedestrian or a cyclist and you will kill or seriously hurt them. Sure people do stupid things, but they do not deserve to die or be maimed. Hurting or killing someone is bad. Visit a hospital or go to a few funerals if you have doubts. Driving a car is a huge privilege and responsibility, not a $deity given right.

2. Is getting held up for 30 seconds, hell, even a few minutes before being able to safely pass a cyclist such a big deal. You'll happily sit through ads on tv, you'll sit at a red light and not complain. Does it really matter if your trip takes 30 minutes or 33 minutes?

3. "Cyclists are too slow". Yet you'll happily sit in peak hour averaging 12-18 km/h behind the car in front of you which is crawling along and not try to squeeze past.

4. Cyclists are legally bound to ride on the road. Cyclists are legally entitled to ride two abreast.

Cheers,
Doug.

1. You're right, it's not a god-given right to drive a car. Which is why we have the whole licensing and registration thing, ya know? Drivers have to actually pass a test showing that they're capable of handling a car AND that they know the road rules. Notably, cyclists are not required to do ANYTHING to demonstrate that we know the road rules or are capable of safely riding a bike. Nor do we pay registration or any roadgoing costs. People also get hospitalised for dropping jars on their foot, falling through shower doors, and yes, riding their bikes. Statistically, if enough people do anything, eventually people will get hurt/killed doing it. Yep, you can definitely hurt or kill somebody else in a car. If you were careless, it'd be easy to electrocute or poison somebody (within your own home) accidentally as well - it's only that everyone is "trained" (usually between the ages of 0 and 10) by their parents/guardians to not do certain things, or do some things a certain way.

2. Pretty damn big generalisation there, I'm sure there's been times where you HAD to be somewhere by a certain time. To assume that nobody is ever in that situation, or that it's fine to cause them inconvenience otherwise, is just selfishness.

3. Cyclists are usually heaps faster in the CBD (IME), but once you're on any kind of arterial road (in Melbourne, that means anywhere more than about 6km from the GPO) on a bike, you'll be significantly slower than the flow of traffic most of the time. Getting in people's ways there is just annoyingly selfish.

4. Yep, and pedestrians have right of way in pretty much any circumstances. If people insisted on asserting that right all the time in heavy traffic (and inconveniencing you in doing so), my money says you'd get annoyed too.


BTW - my local council has put in 3 or 4 bike lanes lately. The problem is, they're being total morons about it, and putting them on the steepest roads they can find (ie the ones that no freakin cyclists use; I ride near all those roads on a regular basis and stick to the side streets because of elevational convenience). They're also being, in my estimation, idealistic do-gooders, because they're willing to screw huge numbers of motorists to suit an extremely small number of people. I hardly see ANY cyclists using these lanes, and in all cases they've converted otherwise (effectively) 4 lane roads into 2 lane roads, halving the possible traffic flow. I don't know which fuckwit it is whose idea it is to create these lanes (on such pointless roads no less), but if I find out, they'll cop an earful and a half from me. I appreciate the general idea, but fuckin hell they just don't have a clue. All they've done so far is clog up traffic for NO benefit to anyone bar do-gooder wankers wanting to pat themselves on the back for "saving the environment".

P.S. Boroondara Council: a bike lane does NOT need to be a car lane's width! Fucktards.

[Rik]

4. Yep, and pedestrians have right of way in pretty much any circumstances. If people insisted on asserting that right all the time in heavy traffic (and inconveniencing you in doing so), my money says you'd get annoyed too.
Not only that, it's illegal (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/rulesregulations/downloads/p14.pdf) too.
#236 (1)
A pedestrian must not cause traffic hazard by moving into the path of a driver.
(2)
A pedestrian must not unreasonably obstruct the path of any driver or other pedestrian.

[S.]

4. Yep, and pedestrians have right of way in pretty much any circumstances. If people insisted on asserting that right all the time in heavy traffic (and inconveniencing you in doing so), my money says you'd get annoyed too.
Not only that, it's illegal (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/rulesregulations/downloads/p14.pdf) too.
#236 (1)
A pedestrian must not cause traffic hazard by moving into the path of a driver.
(2)
A pedestrian must not unreasonably obstruct the path of any driver or other pedestrian.

Fair enough - I bet it says the same thing about bikes though, somewhere (you go look it up if you want, I don't care that much :P). Unreasonably obstructing traffic is exactly what a lot of cyclists do, IMO.

[wombat]

Fair enough - I bet it says the same thing about bikes though, somewhere (you go look it up if you want, I don't care that much :P). Unreasonably obstructing traffic is exactly what a lot of cyclists do, IMO.
I believe item 253 here (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/rulesregulations/downloads/p15.pdf) is most applicable. Although, having ridden with a lot of the people who have posted in the thread, I know that they have broken one or more of these rules at one stage or another. Taking the moral high ground is dangerous.

[Gonzo]

2. Pretty damn big generalisation there, I'm sure there's been times where you HAD to be somewhere by a certain time. To assume that nobody is ever in that situation, or that it's fine to cause them inconvenience otherwise, is just selfishness.

3. Cyclists are usually heaps faster in the CBD (IME), but once you're on any kind of arterial road (in Melbourne, that means anywhere more than about 6km from the GPO) on a bike, you'll be significantly slower than the flow of traffic most of the time. Getting in people's ways there is just annoyingly selfish.




2. You are missing the point. you can just assume that everyone is always in a rush. The point is that if it is that people react diiferently depending on what is holding them up, regardless of whether they hold them up for the same length of time.

3. in sydney, you can find traffic jams anywhere not matter how far from the city you are. If it is selfish for bicyclists to ride on the road and hold people up then it is equally selfish to assume that that bike riders shouldn't take the fastest way which is usually on the road.

[apsilon]

Drivers have to actually pass a test showing that they're capable of handling a car AND that they know the road rules.

Unfortunately holding a license actually doesn't prove either of these things, just that they got lucky on the day they did the test. If it was proof I wouldn't see a lot of the things I see everyday in traffic.

I've long been of the opinion that we should have a proper driver education and testing system here but that would reduce revenue not only by the fact a lot of people would never obtain a license but that those that did would be less likely break a rule and be fined for the action.

[S.]

2. Pretty damn big generalisation there, I'm sure there's been times where you HAD to be somewhere by a certain time. To assume that nobody is ever in that situation, or that it's fine to cause them inconvenience otherwise, is just selfishness.

3. Cyclists are usually heaps faster in the CBD (IME), but once you're on any kind of arterial road (in Melbourne, that means anywhere more than about 6km from the GPO) on a bike, you'll be significantly slower than the flow of traffic most of the time. Getting in people's ways there is just annoyingly selfish.




2. You are missing the point. you can just assume that everyone is always in a rush. The point is that if it is that people react diiferently depending on what is holding them up, regardless of whether they hold them up for the same length of time.

3. in sydney, you can find traffic jams anywhere not matter how far from the city you are. If it is selfish for bicyclists to ride on the road and hold people up then it is equally selfish to assume that that bike riders shouldn't take the fastest way which is usually on the road.

2. No, YOU'RE missing the point. If you hold half a dozen people up and make them late for work (as an example), you've caused them a considerable problem. I never said assume that everyone is in a rush, just allow for the fact that they MAY be.

3. Point out to me where I said it's outright selfish for cyclists to ride on the road, unconditionally. Besides that, for every traffic jam outside the CBD (here at least), there's dozens of kilometres of major arterial roads. Throw in as many uncommon exceptions as you like, but cyclists are usually quite a bit slower than the flow of traffic on these roads. I know, because I've spent a lot of time riding on them.

Drivers have to actually pass a test showing that they're capable of handling a car AND that they know the road rules.

Unfortunately holding a license actually doesn't prove either of these things, just that they got lucky on the day they did the test. If it was proof I wouldn't see a lot of the things I see everyday in traffic.

I've long been of the opinion that we should have a proper driver education and testing system here but that would reduce revenue not only by the fact a lot of people would never obtain a license but that those that did would be less likely break a rule and be fined for the action.

Actually, it does prove capability. I am more than capable of doing all my homework on time, but I still don't. Does that prove that I can't? No, it just shows that I'm lazy. Drivers do plenty of stupid things (as do cyclists), but policing that totally is way out of the question simply due to logistics.

I agree that there should be proper driver education and testing however... testing is hard to do objectively as it is (making it more stringent or anything isn't going to make it any easier/fairer to carry out in my estimation), but education such as government funded driving courses would be excellent. It would, IMO, reduce a lot of the dumbshit actions that we see all the time.

[Adi]

Aye man, I got my P plates and I can't even park in a parking bay, unless it's dead straight ahead of me, :lol:.

It's true!

[johnny]

Was riding along the road the otherday (quite backstreet near shops) when an old bloke (65 or so) pulled out from his parking spot on the side of the road, straight into me. When I reactively swerved around him, he blew his horn at me. The ensueing argument followed:

BEEEEP!

"What!!?? Are you for real??!!

Didn't you see my blinker?

Just having your blinker on doesn't give you right of way!

I know that, but I couldn't see you.

How is that my fault?

Your too small (keep in mind the fact that I'm 180cm, 95 kg and wear bright clothing), you shouldn't be riding on the road.

I'm not alowed on the footpath, the law says I have to be on the road!

Oh I don't care, you shouldn't be on the road.

Well mate, if you have a problem with it argue with the law, not me. If you can't adequetly see what's coming, maybe you shouldn't be driving.

At this stage he said he didn't want to argue about it :roll: and I rode off before I got any angrier. It's because of idiots like this that I want to ride out in the middle of the road when cars are parked on the side of the street. I've had atleast three doors openned on me, I've had people just walk out onto the road from behind parked cars/trucks and the ever ubiquitous old fella, who can't see shit, pulling out on me. You take the risk of holding up traffic until you can find a suitable spot to pull over (which is usually about 10-20 seconds away at most) or playing Russian roulette with people who don't consider their own safety let alone ours.

[apsilon]

Actually, it does prove capability.

We'll agree to disagree on that one. If they were capable they'd pass the test every time but I'm certain if we had yearly testing a lot of people would fail.

While we're on the topic of road riding I was almost hit last weekend. Guy started to pull out from the gutter just as I reached him. Didn't look and didn't indicate. Quick blast from my air horn as I swerved past woke him up :twisted:

Have to tackle part of the M2 and Seven Hills Rd tomorrow to get to the station so I can train it up to Oaks. Let's hope I make it.

[anfon]

Fair enough - I bet it says the same thing about bikes though, somewhere (you go look it up if you want, I don't care that much :P). Unreasonably obstructing traffic is exactly what a lot of cyclists do, IMO.

Yeah, that's a whole other genre of bike riding; car/traffic/road weaving.
That's gotta be the most fun/scary type of riding there is.
Definatly one of my favourites, mainly because I haven't been hit yet.

[johnny]

Fair enough - I bet it says the same thing about bikes though, somewhere (you go look it up if you want, I don't care that much :P). Unreasonably obstructing traffic is exactly what a lot of cyclists do, IMO.

Yeah, that's a whole other genre of bike riding; car/traffic/road weaving.
That's gotta be the most fun/scary type of riding there is.
Definatly one of my favourites, mainly because I haven't been hit yet.

Absastinkenfuckenbloodylutely!!

I love it too! Without trying to suck me own stick 'ere, I can get some decent amounts of pedal pump going. I love doing the peak hour peak out through town. I know I'll come to grief someday, but the devil will deal with that! :D I don't do kamakaze head on heart starters, or anything that ensures a coffin driver has to swerve or jump on the chocks. But it's funny to watch people freak when they see a bike overtake 'em on the outside. Most of the time I think they get the shits because they don't rate their driving abilities high enough to deal with novel situations. I also love it when people get the shits that when you come to a red light, you hop the gutter and go the path. As if they wouldn't if they could :lol:

I only do this stuff when I can move faster than the flow of traffic, and why shouldn't I, they hold me up when I'm late! :lol:

Coopers!

[danv]

Was riding along the road the otherday (quite backstreet near shops) when an old bloke (65 or so) pulled out from his parking spot on the side of the road, straight into me. When I reactively swerved around him, he blew his horn at me. The ensueing argument followed:

BEEEEP!

"What!!?? Are you for real??!!

Didn't you see my blinker?

Just having your blinker on doesn't give you right of way!

I know that, but I couldn't see you.

How is that my fault?

Your too small (keep in mind the fact that I'm 180cm, 95 kg and wear bright clothing), you shouldn't be riding on the road.

I'm not alowed on the footpath, the law says I have to be on the road!

Oh I don't care, you shouldn't be on the road.

Well mate, if you have a problem with it argue with the law, not me. If you can't adequetly see what's coming, maybe you shouldn't be driving.
Haha, my increasingly apathetic friend has a different approach. He had a car pull straight out in front of him, out of a carpark exit. He slides out in an effort to stop, and hits the side of the car, the bike side on also, mincing the panels. Then simply rides off.

Drivers just don't seem to look for cyclists when they pull out.

[johnny]

No, and I can understand why.

If they were trained to drive properly and anticipate the many obtsacles encountered in the daily gauntlet that we all run, they would not be expected to treat driving as some sort of Darwinistic on the job training!

Fail your P's for not pulling off a reverse park the first time??!! I mean really :roll: How pathetically outdated and self centered. We drive under tuteladge and criterion that suits a 50's requirement. Public servants would best busy themselves reflecting on the data from smash repairs, tow truck drivers and psychologists in an effort to better the conditions.

Unfortunatley, many sectors of civil administration seem more inclined to study at the school of re-election rather than that of the social and rational logic.

Coopers.

[danv]

Fail your P's for not pulling off a reverse park the first time??!! I mean really :roll: How pathetically outdated and self centered. We drive under tuteladge and criterion that suits a 50's requirement. Public servants would best busy themselves reflecting on the data from smash repairs, tow truck drivers and psychologists in an effort to better the conditions.

Unfortunatley, many sectors of civil administration seem more inclined to study at the school of re-election rather than that of the social and rational logic.

Heh, a guy I know went for his driving test during school the other day, we'd been making jokes about him failing. He came back in the afternoon and had recieved an IMMEDIATE FAIL less than 5 minutes into the test, because his back right tyre just clipped a double line when he was doing a right turn, where there was a break in the double lines. His instructor was in the car, and apparently went right off at the tester, swearing at her, arguing along the lines of what you wrote above.

He rebooked (having to pay for both bookings) and passed a week later.


Coopers.
I think you need a new sig!

[johnny]

Nah, just another cold one, this one's empty.

[renwo]

no, (the vast majority of) motorists don't look at all. it's the ever growing need to get from a-> b quicker, be the fastest, always in a hurry - must rush.

call it a side-effect of modern lifestyle & the continuous speeding up of everything.., or just a lack of regard from the public who get caught up in this. either way i'm sick to death of giving drivers evil looks/stares/fingers/verbal abuse for pulling up to a turn @ 40km/h, jaming on the breaks last second with the bonnet 1/2 a meter out on the road, which makes me swerve or lock up.

and they look at you like you're in the wrong for holding up their speed demon round trip to the deli? what the fuck is wrong with people...

i've also been hit by a car door along a road that is 2-lane tight, cars parked all along, in a shopping district busy with pedestrians.. so the footpath was a no-option. (it's the Parade @ norwood for those who know) Moving at a decently speedy 25/30 k's, hugging the parked cars, this old chap decided to just fling his door open about a metre in front on me.. it was pretty much instant hit. didnt have time to swerve or even think about a reaction, i just barely got my teeth out the way of the door frame thanks to my flinching (pure luck i may add). almost took his door off and in the process i took the hit on my jaw. tore my lower gum away from the muscle below my front bottom teeth - about an inch split they couldn't stitch + lots of swelling & bruising.

he didn't even look, just swung it out there... & let me tell you it's not a very pleasant thing to experience. the impact was so loud everyone came running out of shops expecting a car wreck. :(

so..... if anyone gives me shit for taking up a lane, which i'm fully entitled to do, they can not very politely get fucked. i don't care if i'm holding up traffic.. there's no way i'm riding within a metre of parked cars & risking that again. use the damn steering wheel & go around, thats what it's there for. maybe learn some patience.. there's a new one for drivers.

i honestly feel the only way people are going to learn, or even be aware of cyclist safety, is to have a near-miss then be yelled at. in the process hopefully scaring some awareness into them. next time they may even stop and look first.