Orange 222 owners - floating brake setup worth it ?

[jungle]

i'm looking at getting a secondhand
0range 222 complete bike
i can get one with the factory floating brake setup and
one without the factory floating brake setup

Are the floating brakes on the 222 worth it
or just unnecessary weight that you don't really need ?

cheers

[moorey]

This is obviously not an impartial post, as mine is one of the bikes in question, but just making sure you know what it does (I am sure you already knew).
It stops the suspension locking out under braking, so no brake jack and skipping of wheels. The technical reason I have been told (and am sure to be corrected if wrong) is that it separates and isolates the brake forces from the swing arm, allowing them to move independantly.
As to best choice, I reckon that may depend on your riding style and terrain. On smooth ground that did not require braking into corners and on rough ground, there seemed to be no real advantage, although I only had a few rides on a non floater bike. On rough, rutted and rocky ground it did make a difference to trackion and comfort.
There is a little extra noise due to the couple of extra attachments, but only a very slight 'rattle' which can be minimised by pumping a litthe grease in the nipples once a month (it's still a quiter bike than 90% on the market)
If you are sold on the 222's, either would do the job and you would quickly learn the riding style that each handles better with.
That's as impartial as I can be, hope it helps, but I also hope others out there can cast an opinion if they have ridden either or both (even other bikes fitted with a floater).

[scblack]

Well, my bike is not an Orange 222, but a Bullit 2004. It's a similar single pivot setup though, and mine does not have a floating brake. I have not felt the need for a floating brake at all. As far as I'm concerned, you get used to what you've got anyway, so I guess I'm saying it's a fair bit of personal preference. I would not go for it, but I know many riders who have.

[No Skid Marks]

I'm riding a BB7 and yes it is very different in pivot location compared to a 222 but I imagine the benifits would be similar. Jumping off a multi pivot(linkage) bike that does not suffer brake jack you would deffinately notice the suspention lock out under brakes but after riding it for a day your subconcious mind will counter act the braking into corners and over rough stuff. I personally would love a brake arm but have not bothered getting around to it. I'm guessing my BB7 doesn't suffer as bad as a 222 but non the less I ride for the pleasure of it and a floater will deffinatelly make the bike much plusher. I doubt very much it would make you faster though. With so much travell in the arse I'm not sure if you get full lock out, but appart from the chattering rear your head angle will also get very steep as the back jacks up, not really a problem for racing but for freeriding down very steep stuff I find it unnerving.

[W2ttsy]

well i have a d8, so its not the same in linkage styles. but since its pretty much a single pivot (with the funky shock linage going on) i have noticed that slamming the brake on into a corner will lock the rear up.

i cant get a floater for my bike and i dont see the need either. i just brake before the corner and dab the front if i need to while in the corner. sometimes i dab the rear too for feathering, but i tend to stay off that brake if possible.

most of it will be technique.

is there much price difference? if it isnt too much more to get the floater, then you may aswell.

just my two cents...

W2ttsy

[mike&nat]

well my 222 doesnt have a floating rear brake and i dont think it realy needs one, mine works well without. also i ve read afew reviews about them that they are like rattly or loose on the frame or something and they were also saying dont waste your money on one.

[lotec]

A lot of stuff

BB7s squat not jack Therefore the head angle gets slacker and the bb lower under braking, Personally I like this, helps you keep the weight low and back on the steep stuff but you can easily avoid it with the right braking technique, Im sure thats why the floater on a bb7 has 3 mounting holes for less / more active, so you can still choose to get a bit of squat but not as much...

jacking, now thats annoying :D (I'm not sure what a 222 gets so I cant be of much help there)

[lotec]

Oops forgot to mention the floating brake mount on a 222 is mounted quite a way below the swingarm which I think is what stops a lot of people running them, I can just see it getting smashed / bent/ dented/ deformed / etc etc etc on a rock

[Daver]

I thought that on the 222 the floating brake caused the bike to squat but it doesn't keep the bike active. I am yet to see a rider that has paid for a floating brake actually use it, and the noise increase makes a noisy bike even noisier.

[DJ_Robbie]

BB7s squat not jack

Thats what the new stinky supremes do, they are designed to squat undre braking, not sure if it helps, but meh, get the cheaper one i say, it probably wont make any difference to the times of your runs at the end of the day, just hit one corner 3km/h quicker and you'll probably pick up the same time.

[ZZ]

Lotec I don't think Skiddy whatever said his bike squatted or jacked. Either way all single pivots lock out under brakes to some extent due to the brake forces pushing the swingarm in some direction. on a squatting BB7 it would just ramp your suspension up past the soft part of it's suspension, with the shock set up to counter act peddle bob you may find it counter act the squat or at least the feel of it aswell? I think 222 are fast for the reason that the suspension is not working half the time due to pedal or brake forces, this however only applies if a good rider is piloting it.

[moorey]

I thought that on the 222 the floating brake caused the bike to squat but it doesn't keep the bike active. I am yet to see a rider that has paid for a floating brake actually use it, and the noise increase makes a noisy bike even noisier.
You have to use it...there is nowhere to mount the caliper except onto the floating section that pivots around the hub, unless you welded or solidly lashed it to the frame ( I tried this for 10 min just for fun, but is not a viable option..BTW, the was virtuall do difference in noise, but you could feel the suspension less active under braking). The floating brake swingarm is specific to the bike, you would need to weld on a brake mount to a non floater model.
Generally in my experience, anyone who has not had a floating brake tends to dis them...apologies if this does not apply to you

[moorey]

Oops forgot to mention the floating brake mount on a 222 is mounted quite a way below the swingarm which I think is what stops a lot of people running them, I can just see it getting smashed / bent/ dented/ deformed / etc etc etc on a rock
It sits a little lower than the rotor, mine has taken a couple of small knocks that would have otherwise smashed a rotor anyway. It is 10 times more durable than a rotor.
BTW.... the 222 has multiple mounting points to allow variations in activeness or the floating brake

[floody]

i have noticed that slamming the brake on into a corner will lock the rear up.


Hardly a function of bike design! slam the brakes on hard on any bike and it will lock them.

It is a fantastic idea in theory, IMHO on a mountain bike for 90% of people though it won't make much difference. If it squats into the travel then I would suggest its a good thing, countering fork dive/geometry change and also helping pull the suspension into the bumps.

Finally, plenty of people bang on about brake jacking and so on, but unless its an old LTS or something its not really an issue to stress over.
If the price difference isn't huge, go for it - can't hurt to have the floater.

[udi]

To quote socket, most single pivot bikes actually squat rather than jack. The only bikes that really jack (the suspension actually extends towards topout on braking) are lawills... yeti, tomac dh, etc.

I know on my shockwave, singlepivot, if i grab the brake really hard (lock or near lock on pavement) it squats ever so slightly, but thats it, definately no jack. And as for when actually riding... pfft I don't feel it at all. I'm with moorey though, it'd be good to try both before deciding.

The 222's with the falling rate rearend (starts hard, softens towards end, ie not rising rate) seems to have more trouble with bumps than regular single pivots, so maybe a floater isnt such a bad idea.. might make it feel a bit nicer as moorey says, even if thats a different issue all together.

Do compare frame weighs too though, a floater does add some weight, might negate the "light" selling point of the 222.

[lotec]

Dude the floater weighs 2/3 of shit all, take a few pins out of the middle of your pedals or run 1 lockring on each grip or something like that and you will probably notice more difference :D

[Cave Dweller]

Dude the floater weighs 2/3 of shit all, take a few pins out of the middle of your pedals or run 1 lockring on each grip or something like that and you will probably notice more difference :D

Actually from memory it adds 1/2 to 2/3 of a pound of weight, thats why alot of people choose not to run them.

[lotec]

Ouch, I would weigh the floater off my bb7 but I dont have any scales that aren't 40 years old and have a measuring jug attached it cant be anywhere near that though, I was shocked when I took it off as to how light it was, I wouldn't think the one on a 222 would be any heavier with how much effort they go to to get the frames so light...

[toodles]

Ouch, I would weigh the floater off my bb7 but I dont have any scales that aren't 40 years old and have a measuring jug attached it cant be anywhere near that though, I was shocked when I took it off as to how light it was, I wouldn't think the one on a 222 would be any heavier with how much effort they go to to get the frames so light...

Morewood runs a carbon fibre floating brake assembly. Check their stuff out, very similar to an orange actually - but more desirable because no one else has one :D

[jungle]

here's the link if anyone is interested

http://www.morewoodbikes.com/

it does look very much like a orange
even the geometry of the frame

[lotec]

Morewood runs a carbon fibre floating brake assembly.

Do you know how much you just cost me??? :mad:


:D

[sich nich]

k, i dunno bout 222s, but doesnt a floater require a narrower hub (ie: say 135 instead of 150 or whatever)? i dont know the difference in flange spacing, but ive seen the flnges on hubs of giants and sgs IHs, and those wheels must be sooo strong with hubs like that.
with a floater in the way, u couldnt have as wider hub, could u?

[Oddjob]

[QUOTE=uDi]To quote socket, most single pivot bikes actually squat rather than jack. The only bikes that really jack (the suspension actually extends towards topout on braking) are lawills... yeti, tomac dh, etc.

D8's have a nasty brake jack problem as well.

IMO save yourself the money. If you are really that worried about brake jack get a multilink bike that doesn't have the problem in the first place.

[Daver]

k, i dunno bout 222s, but doesnt a floater require a narrower hub (ie: say 135 instead of 150 or whatever)? i dont know the difference in flange spacing, but ive seen the flnges on hubs of giants and sgs IHs, and those wheels must be sooo strong with hubs like that.
with a floater in the way, u couldnt have as wider hub, could u?

You could, but generally if the frame is designbed for a floater than it will be set up accordingly. If it isn't then it's possible to mount the floater to the swingarm very close to the axle.

And just for the record, the older 222s that came with floaters were able to ride without the floater- because the floater runs under the swingarm it still has mounts on the top. But frames that weren't supplied with floaters had no front mounts. However, the 223s all have the front mounts, yet the swingarms are all edifferent.

Hence, why not running a floater was popular even when you had the parts.

[Daver]

IMO save yourself the money. If you are really that worried about brake jack get a multilink bike that doesn't have the problem in the first place.

But most multilink bikes brakejack as well, the only design that doesn't is the Horst Link, but these are quickly phasing out. VPPs, parallel linkages(DW, yeti, schwinn etc), walking beams, etc. all jack atrociously.

[S.]

D8's have a nasty brake jack problem as well.

No, D8s squat under brakes, and having ridden one I can say it's not a big problem at all. You can notice it, but it's not like it threatens to "lock out" your suspension at all.

But most multilink bikes brakejack as well, the only design that doesn't is the Horst Link, but these are quickly phasing out. VPPs, parallel linkages(DW, yeti, schwinn etc), walking beams, etc. all jack atrociously.

No, actually only some of the old lawwill(-esque) linkages jack (and maybe some really oddball oldschool ones I've never heard of). Everything else squats (and this INCLUDES FSR bikes). Parallel linkage bikes such as Schwinns (rocket 88s, not the Lawwills) will have bugger all squat (ie not at all noticeable), VPPs vary throughout the travel, dw-link bikes have a smaller amount of squat than nearly all FSR bikes, etc. Nowadays it really is pretty much a non-issue, having ridden a few of those bikes I can vouch for the fact that they're not "atrocious" with regards to braking input... most bikes are relatively neutral (FSR, dw-link, VPPs a bit less so, Turner linkages [presumably what you called walking beams] etc are all fine).

Ok seriously - the only way you're gonna get a bike that's REALLY bad under brakes is if you find some oldschool Lawwill or similar with no floating brake, such as the old Profile DH bikes. 222s, BB7s etc without floaters have a fair bit of squat, but given that some Konas now come with "floaters" specifically designed to vastly increase the squat under brakes (and that they're completely rideable, if strange) pushes the point that you can live with it. If you don't like the squatting feeling, get a floater (and get a proper one; the ones on the 222 stock aren't exactly ideal geometry - try a Brake Therapy one). It's not that big a deal, really.

[Oddjob]

No, D8s squat under brakes, and having ridden one I can say it's not a big problem at all. You can notice it, but it's not like it threatens to "lock out" your suspension at all.

You're joking right? I've got a D8 and I ride it almost every day, trust me they brake jack. I never said they lock out though, they are actually quite active under braking. I think both are related to the distinct rising rate of the linkage, I'm not going to go into the physics of my hypothesis, but I'm pretty sure that's the cause.

Once again though I think it depends on how worried you are about brake jack as to which 222 you get. I suspect it's not worth the extra cost to get the one with the floating brake.

[S.]

You're joking right? I've got a D8 and I ride it almost every day, trust me they brake jack. I never said they lock out though, they are actually quite active under braking. I think both are related to the distinct rising rate of the linkage, I'm not going to go into the physics of my hypothesis, but I'm pretty sure that's the cause.

Once again though I think it depends on how worried you are about brake jack as to which 222 you get. I suspect it's not worth the extra cost to get the one with the floating brake.

Nope, they do not jack, they squat, and no, it's because of the rate of the linkage.

A lot of people call brake squat "brake jack", which is actually the opposite; jacking means the suspension tries to extend under brakes (other than just the usual extension due to weight shifting forwards). Squatting is the opposite (and what nearly all bikes incur); the couple moment generated by the brake caliper/axle tries to rotate the bike "forward". Since the brake is attached to the swingarm, it will try and rotate the bike forward via said swingarm, and in doing so compress the suspension instead. This places the suspension in a more stiffly sprung section of the stroke, and inhibits the rebound as well, and as such the bike may feel harsher over bumps. I can draw up diagrams if you like?

[moorey]

So many fine explanations and theories....but I'm still unsure of how it really works. Off to TAFE I go.....