Christianity. [Archive] - FARKIN.NET Forums

johnny

09-03-2005, 10:49 PM

Religion should never be discussed online.
But I disagree with that website link, I am a Christian (Lutheran), so I also think this post is a bit broad a generalization. Perhaps "Hardline Christianity" is a better post topic? I agree. The world would be far worse off if there were no Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddists etc. Please please please some one just try and accuse religion of being the cause of most wars. For I'd love to show how this is a common misconception regurgitated by ignorants who get their information from taxi drivers and pub convos.....On another note, just to stir you all up. Funny how a majority of ppl everywhere don't believe in God, Shun him, mock him, don't respect him, and basically don't care. Drive God out of their lives, ban him in schools (even christian private ones)...
Then when something bad happens, Eg: Trunami. Everyone says "Where was God then?" Well maybe he just did as you asked hey :p Left us to our own ways :) Uumm, left us to our own ways? So being that man didn't create the Tsunami, nature must have. Didn't god create nature? Weren't there many Christians killed in the tsunami that didn't shun the Lord? How would it have been different if we hadn't banished our faith? Are you saying the tsunami wouldn't have come? Then therefore, by that rationalle, God must have sent the tsunami. Not trying to debase your beliefs, only your argument.Just a thought I had, I am no knowledgable Christian, I don't even go to church that often, Sin all the bloody time etc. But I do believe there is a God, and think the Lutherans have it pretty spot on ;) And I don't want to risk spending eternity in hell. :D

Can you tell me how the Lutheran church was founded?

johnny

09-03-2005, 11:20 PM

check out "The Truth About Evolution"

I don't know whether to laugh or cry

Yes, let's just go over a few points raised in this here piece of biblical propaganda:

Page 4, 4th box: "Ultimately one must believe in God and accept the truth through faith in god, not mere human argument"

So, we can't rely on human argument eh? Well what do we have that gives us the info about faith in God? That would be the Bible yeah? And who wrote the Bible? Wasn't God, nor was it Jesus. As a matter of "fact" it was written by ...........HUMANS! So therefore this piece is basically saying that we should disregard the Bible because it's a "mere human argument"......... :eek:

"Bicycles did not become motorcycles except by the design of the creator".

Uhuh :confused: So here we go with the irrefutable argument of "No matter what happens it's all part of God's plan". Cool, so those who sin and go to hell are just part of God's plan? "No" the Christians say, "that was their decision to live a life of sin". Yet it wasn't Mr. Honda and Suzuki's decision to make motorcycles, god made that decision for them........ :confused: So can we outline which choices we make and which choices God makes so we're all on the same page here?!

Page three: "And who says those experts are experts, were they there at the beginning of time to see how it happened?"

So the premise is that if you weren't there to see something happen, you can't be sure that actualy happened. So, how many Christians were around to see Jesus rise from the dead? Oh that's right, it's all about faith. We're allowed to have faith in a book written by humans 2000 years ago, but we can't have faith in something that's written by humans today............ :confused:

Homosexuality: "Born that way is a bunch of hooey".

Wow :eek: that's the most convincing argument I've ever heard. It certainly addressed all my doubtful points and queries! :rolleyes:

Now where's my ouija board and pentagram................

toodles

10-03-2005, 06:12 AM

Please please please some one just try and accuse religion of being the cause of most wars

En garde! Religion has always been used as an excuse for the majority of wars the world has seen today.

*toodles braces for brunt of information assault*

scblack

10-03-2005, 08:34 AM

Religion should never be discussed online.

Ah, I believe you just did. :rolleyes:

Any reason you want to give that it should never be discussed online?

MrPlow

10-03-2005, 08:45 AM

Ryan, I don't mind that you don't believe in God, and I didn't try to tell you how to live your life. You either took me the wrong way, jumped to conclusion, or are just so used to having it shoved down your throat that this was your natural response. Read what I said again, without the view that I am trying to convert you dude! ;) :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
And Johny yeh, you are probably right, my argument has many flaws. Hey, I wouldn't even attempt to bring it up with someone who actually knew what they were talking about (like a pastor etc) :D

Like I said, I am no heavy Christian, I suppose I should be according to what I believe, but I am not. I don't go to church, I would prefer to go riding :) I don't read my bible, I don't pray regularly etc. But I do believe there is a God. I respect that there are those who don't believe, and I respect that those people have enough inteligence to form their own beliefs (for which I am not going to bother trying to change).\

But like every religious debate that I have ever seen on this forum (and others) it is a dead end topic (because of ppl's beliefs) and for some reason seems to get agressive, maybe cause it is a passionate topic.

What pisses me off is those people who don't respect my beliefs. I say I respect yours, I am entitled to my own point of view, respect it.

And if there is a God I suppose their is a Devil too. Maybe he was involved in the Tsunami??
Baah, this is a big time waster. I am going back to MTB topics, later.

Ryan

10-03-2005, 09:29 AM

naz

10-03-2005, 10:27 AM

imo religion to me is a sign of insecurity, relying on something and having to give my life away. and then on top worshipping it. ye great. dont worry i went to a christian school for 10 years, i didnt acquire shit except strong hatred for religion and fate, we make choices, no one or anything makes them for us. and the bible was originally translated by masons wastn it :P

"its like 9/11 times 1000,
thats 911000
so pretty much every bad part of the bible"

MrPlow

10-03-2005, 12:25 PM

imo religion to me is a sign of insecurity

Naah it aint.

SNYKE

10-03-2005, 02:06 PM

That is some stupid shit, no offence to any christians. I also think religion is a sign of insecurity, people having to have answers for all there problems and stuff.

P.S. naz nice team america quote.

MrPlow

10-03-2005, 04:58 PM

Perhaps it is a sign of insecurity for some. But so is a flash car (look at me, I have a flash car). Or a flash MTB is as well (posers).
Or even fashion, clothing etc, some ppl must have the latest shoes or clothes to feel secure.
I won't sit here and say I don't have some insecurities, but nobody else can either.
At least Christianity is cheaper than a new Lamborghini :D (well it is for me, perhaps not for mormons though :D )

Saying I don't believe in God because it will make me look like I am insecure is an insecurity in itself :p :)

ajay

10-03-2005, 07:05 PM

That is some stupid shit, no offence to any christians. I also think religion is a sign of insecurity, people having to have answers for all there problems and stuff.

Why post stupid shit like that?

I am not a christian either (although my whole family is) and what i do know is that christians develop a special relationship between them and god that is is no way simple enough to sum up like that, and the bible doesnt offer anwsers to all your problems but can offer guidence in ways to try and understand them.

I dont have that bond, but i do have respect for peoples beliefs and if that involves something i dont agree with, then thats fine, as long as it is not forced on others.

naz

10-03-2005, 07:48 PM

being stereotypical but not offensive but most of the christian people i know are boring as batshit. its like talking to a brainwashed bludy vegetable, "god told me to this, oh but god doesnt like that, if u followed god..., god god god"

if all else fails and i know im gonna die from lung cancer im gonna become a exorcist, then make a deal with the devil :P

ajay

10-03-2005, 08:11 PM

^ yeah i know exactly what you mean, but as you say it is a big stero type, the same can be said of many different groups of people though, its just because so many christians are very different from you or me in the way they live their life that makes them stand out so much...

naz

10-03-2005, 08:37 PM

its like they cant do anything without "asking god" for the big a-ok.

ajay

10-03-2005, 08:53 PM

i dont mind that at all, if it makes em happy, fine, but as i said, before "as long as they dont force it on others" - i fully understand your point, and to a degree, i agree with you.

funkymonkey

10-03-2005, 10:08 PM

Hi all, i have just read the majority of the posts, except for the long ones... Ha Ha. I am a christian and attend church regularly. I do not go out and try to convert everyone i see, if somebody asks me i will put forward my opinion. I dont follow the 'goody two shoes' approach such as the comic strip that started the post, i do however respect peoples beliefs. If they want to believe in Buddha, Mohomad or God or "insert higher power here", i respect that.

Yes the majority of wars do start over religion, however if these people actually read the bible,and saw the thousands of thou shalt not kill messages in it, and actually practiced what the preached, then these wars would never eventuate.

How about a little tolerance of other peoples beliefs.

I do believe that everything happens for a reason, even this quote...

Now ill sit back and wait for the Bible Bashing responses, it will just prove my point. :p

tu plang

10-03-2005, 10:31 PM

my family went to church every sunday when we were kids but as we started to work that became a little more sporadic. mum still goes frequently and i have no problem going to church and practicing the religion the way we have been brought up with it.

but what really turns me off is the do-gooder religion teachers that we get at school. they are just so obsessive and they waffle on.

teacher "why do we pray"
student "to get to know god and to become closer to him"
teacher "good, getting to know god is the only way to get to heaven, if you pray you will goto heaven... or you may not..." :eek:
student 2 "tough break aye?"

they just dont think out their banter at all. it comes out very... do good or your going to hell and (as above) if you do good you... 'may not'. way to sell the whole idea guys!

one of the teachers was so obsessed with getting everyone to the passion of christ that she organised an excursion (ok, admitidly thats not strange at all). it is strange however when you choose not to go for **polite excuse beating around the fact that you dont really wish to go*** and they take this .... dentist appointment so literrally that they ring you up on weekends trying to organise a visit to the cinema... :eek:

got overbaring?

naz

10-03-2005, 10:44 PM

How about a little tolerance of other peoples beliefs.

I do believe that everything happens for a reason, even this quote...

Now ill sit back and wait for the Bible Bashing responses, it will just prove my point. :p

theres no point in life if we have presets routes for life,

if ur talking about fate, i am in control, i really dont like the idea of some dude floatin around the clouds makin decisions for me, defies being human. or maybe this post is a automated "ive lost faith in humanity" failsafe?

johnny

10-03-2005, 10:47 PM

Like I said, I am no heavy Christian, I suppose I should be according to what I believe, but I am not. I don't go to church, I would prefer to go riding :) I don't read my bible, I don't pray regularly etc. But I do believe there is a God. I respect that there are those who don't believe, and I respect that those people have enough inteligence to form their own beliefs (for which I am not going to bother trying to change).\

But like every religious debate that I have ever seen on this forum (and others) it is a dead end topic (because of ppl's beliefs) and for some reason seems to get agressive, maybe cause it is a passionate topic.

What pisses me off is those people who don't respect my beliefs. I say I respect yours, I am entitled to my own point of view, respect it.

And if there is a God I suppose their is a Devil too. Maybe he was involved in the Tsunami??
Baah, this is a big time waster. I am going back to MTB topics, later.

Some of the most inspiring, honest and well thought words I've ever read.

Mr Plow (that name again, Mr Plow) I have the utmost respect for you. first reason is for the way you look at religion/Christianity, it's the most logical approach I've heard so far. Secondly, you have the courage of your convictions. So many people in the world have not got the intestinal fortitude to go against the grain and stand up for their beliefs (Daniel and the lions). You have stated your mind and stood your ground. I don't care if your belief is genocide, it's not your belief I'm looking at now. It's your courage, pure and simple. 1) the courage to state your beliefs disregarding the consequences, 2) being strong enough to hold yourself to your beliefs. More people like to think they can do this than those who truly do.

Religion does horrid things. NO! It does not! Man does horrid things in the name of religion. If you wish to place blame, you must understand all aspects of the context. Religion only speaks, man actually does. If you hurl a barb, ensure your target is guilty. Otherwise the barbs shall return two fold when you are known the fool.

And before we hear anymore debasing of religion, think about this: Salvation Army, World Vision, Red Cross/Cresent, Wayside Chappel, Mother Theresa, Ghandi, the Dalai Lama....need I explain?

Respect. Absolute respect.

BTW, it's plough you yankee stooge :p

johnny

10-03-2005, 11:03 PM

Yes the majority of wars do start over religion,

Thar she blows!

Ok, before we go any further, can you tell what part religion played in:

Iraq 1 and 2.
Aceh (civil war now)
Congo (now)
Liberia (last year)
Eithiopa/Eritrea
Viet..........

As a matter of fact, let's just stick to the big three:

WW1-2 (both the European and Pacific theatres) and the ensuing Cold War (which included Korea, Afghanistan [USSR invasion in the 80's] and vietnam).

I would like to know how in your opinion these wars were started over religion?

naz

10-03-2005, 11:47 PM

lets not forget northern ireland prodestants vs catholics

or

The current conflict in Darfur/Sudan

johnny

11-03-2005, 12:16 AM

lets not forget northern ireland prodestants vs catholics

Well there's a perfectly good and plausible argument that the "war" is about British imperialism, and that the Irish are the Catholics and the British are the protestants. It's completely logical that two waring parties can be of differing religions without the religion being the cause of the conflict. You just have to look at the name IRA. Irish REPUBLICAN army, not the Irish Catholic army ;)

But if you'd suggested The current conflict in Darfur/Sudan, I'd have said, "yes, religion is a major part of that conflict, but it also has to do with resources as well". If you'd suggested Algeria, I'd have totally agreed. If you'd have suggested certain aspects of the "war on terror" I'd have agreed with the necessary qualifications.

But you didn't. You suggested Northern Ireland where one country took over sovereignty for their king, and the local population fought back for independence :p punk

naz

11-03-2005, 12:28 AM

if i had asked for a left wing "i dont like it" republican, pro-nuke america, i hate stalin he killed 16million people, could have searched google explanation, i would have turned to god.

but is there really a god? :confused:

Ryan

11-03-2005, 12:31 AM

naz

11-03-2005, 12:33 AM

if god is so real why dont we ask him, oh thats right he works in mysterious ways, only those who have been "touched" by him, truly understand.

johnny

11-03-2005, 02:22 AM

Referring to the post a couple of posts back johnny, isn't the civil war in Aceh pretty much religiously motivated...or do you favour a more nationalistic / seccessionist explanation with just a sprinkling of desire for a pan-islamic caliphate in the region.

I do favour/believe that is 99% a seccessionist movement. Here's a bit from the US State Dept.'s website siting the conflict:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/29637.htm
Indonesia experienced improvements in some regions, but conditions in Aceh Province deteriorated rapidly. Various reports indicate that Indonesian security forces murdered, tortured, raped, beat and arbitrarily detained civilians in Aceh, under martial law since May 2003, as government forces sought to defeat the separatist Free Aceh Movement (GAM) following failed peace negotiations. GAM rebels also carried out grave abuses including murder, kidnapping and extortion.

Islam is the dominant religion in Aceh, as is the case throughout the whole archipeligo. But I'm pretty sure that it is independence that they seek alone. As a qualification to that, the recent peace talks between GAM and Indonesia (state) in Stockholm, has seen GAM concede that independence is not an achievable goal and are now aspiring to limited autonomy (whatever that may mean in Indonesian terms). The violence flared about 5 years ago (give or take) when the indigenous population rallied against the forced migration of Javanese into the region and the dominance of Chinese migrants over the local (merchant) economy.

I believe those that seek to form an Islamic caliphate (is there any other kind of caliphate :confused: ) was Jemma Islamia (Islamic community). On that note, there is a grey area on what is considered "war" (guerilla/insurgency) and social unrest. Jemma Islamia has been allegedly responsible for a succession of bombings of Christian churches throughout the archipeligo over the last 6-8 years and have recently increased the magnitude and scope of their attacks due to an alleged collaboration with Al Qaeda via the operative Hambali (who is now a prisoner of the USA. from what I can tell he is being held on Diego Garcia).

As far as I'm aware, GAM and Jemma Islamia and by default, Al Qaeda have never collaborated as their goals are not comparative.

toodles

11-03-2005, 06:22 AM

And before we hear anymore debasing of religion, think about this: Salvation Army, World Vision, Red Cross/Cresent, Wayside Chappel, Mother Theresa, Ghandi, the Dalai Lama....need I explain?

You left out Al Qaeda, the Tamil tigers, the Sudanese NIF, the Hizbollah, etc, etc. In fact, half of the world's top thirty terrorist groups claim religion as their motivation. Which ironically enough, gives World Vision and the Red Cross plenty of work to do. Ain't religion great?

I would like to know how in your opinion these wars were started over religion?

What the? Only wars started in the 20th Century? Cmon play fair - the majority of wars EVER. Not just since the decentralisation of mainstream religion. Besides, their was significant involvement from major religious groups

Hmmm what was that little conflict in Bosnia about again? Or the thing in the middle east with those guys with hats? Or those happy go lucky Irish folk? Lets not forget the support Pope Pius XII and his support of Hitler. In fact, several times people have regarded facism/communism as psuedo-religious, which could actually be used to conclude WW I and II were religious wars.

Ah forget it.

99Coconuts

11-03-2005, 09:09 AM

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

this is getting way too deep eh. some ppls want/need something to beleive in and some dont. so long as no-one gets pushy or preachy, who's it hurting? how friggin boring would the world be if we all thought the same? imagine a world without arguments, FORUMS WOULDN'T EXIST :p

and to say that religion is the cause of war is a bit narrow minded, i mean you can take it a couple of ways really. yes, it was the reason given by those in control, but they obviously didn't really give a rats about their religion because they go around defying it anyways. this would lead me to beleive that if they had the power without the religion, they'd find some other gripe and use that instead :confused:

yeah, heaps of ppls have been killed in the name of religion, but i still reckon we'd find other reasons to kick shit out of each other. look at the yanks, they kill each other in droves without needing a religion to hide behind. its pretty simple, whatever gets you through the day is fine, just dont push it and we'll all be happy little vegimites..... :D

still think those comics are funny tho :rolleyes: :D

ajay

11-03-2005, 09:20 AM

so long as no-one gets pushy or preachy, who's it hurting?

Umm.... people are getting pushy, thats the thing. If people didnt push it on others, then we wouldnt be having this debate/discussion.

The majority of religeous believers do keep it to their selves (as not to force it ap[on others) which is fine, but the minority of religeous believers who are fanatical or fundamentalists will go to great lengths to do what ever it is that they feel we should be doing... which aint fine, and many people have been hurt as a result.

Cave Dweller

11-03-2005, 09:33 AM

if god is so real why dont we ask him, oh thats right he works in mysterious ways, only those who have been "touched" by him, truly understand.

Is that what the church minister says before he starts molesting young boys???

I believe in a God/Creator, but im not going to follow some worhshipping plan based on blind faith. I kind of agree with Naz that church makes insecure people fell secure, believing that there is a better life in heaven for them makes it easier for them to get through their shitty lives.

Mr Plow, if you don't go to church, or don't even pray, and don't read the bible then you can't be christian. By definition chritianity is taking time out weekly to assemble with others and pray to God (doesn't have to be a church). You may have been baptised a christian but if you don't follow the faith the way the bible tells you too then you are not a christian mate, and any belief otherwise is false according to your bible. You should check it out, there is no degree of christianity, you either do what it says or you don't and from the sounds of it you don't.

Also, missing church on a sunday to go riding is a major, major sin according to your bible and it tells you to repent immediatly or face going to hell. I can't beleive you would risk an eternity of DH'ing in heaven to an eternity in hell just so you can go earth DH'ing on a sunday.

So, really, you and me are the same. Both believe in god and both don't go to church.

And by the way, when typing about god it is Him, not him. Even i know that :rolleyes:

ajay

11-03-2005, 09:45 AM

if you don't go to church, or don't even pray, and don't read the bible then you can't be christian. By definition chritianity is taking time out to assemble with others and pray to God (doesn't have to be a church).

That definately isnt the definition mate. There is no way to "define" Christianity, its a very personal thing that can be (and most often is) shared with with other people.

What about the people in non Christian countries who would be executed if found to even posess a bible, if they dont have a bible or a place of worship, then would they be not Christian?

Of course they would be Christian.... it is not a materialistic thing...

Ryan

11-03-2005, 09:49 AM

Is that what the church minister says before he starts molesting young boys???

I believe in a God/Creator, but im not going to follow some worhshipping plan based on blind faith. I kind of agree with Naz that church makes insecure people fell secure, believing that there is a better life in heaven for them makes it easier for them to get through their shitty lives.

Mr Plow, if you don't go to church, or don't even pray, and don't read the bible then you can't be christian. By definition chritianity is taking time out to assemble with others and pray to God (doesn't have to be a church). You may have been baptised a christian but if you don't follow the faith the way the bible tells you too then you are not a christian mate, and any belief otherwise is false according to your bible. You should check it out.

Also, missing church on a sunday to go riding is a major, major sin according to your bible and it tells you to repent immediatly or face going to hell. I can't beleive you would risk an eternity of DH'ing in heaven to an eternity in hell just so you can go earth DH'ing on a sunday.

And by the way, when typing about god it is Him, not him. Even i know that :rolleyes:

Hang on a second, I'm pretty sure that nowhere in the bible does it demand that you assemble in a church, on any given day, under the control of a priest / preacher / minister / whatever who apparently has special authority to commune with God and administer sacraments. In fact, nowhere in the bible is there any ringing endorsement for an organised religious movement of any sort. All Jesus wants you to do is share a meal with with your mates, drink some wine, break some bread and do this in memory of him. If you can do this and live your life by the tenets of the ten commandments then you're arguably more Christian than the fool who believes that attending a bunch of weird rituals prescribed by their church that have little to no basis in the actual bible is what makes them good Christians.

Cave Dweller

11-03-2005, 10:08 AM

Hang on a second, I'm pretty sure that nowhere in the bible does it demand that you assemble in a church, on any given day, under the control of a priest / preacher / minister / whatever who apparently has special authority to commune with God and administer sacraments. In fact, nowhere in the bible is there any ringing endorsement for an organised religious movement of any sort. All Jesus wants you to do is share a meal with with your mates, drink some wine, break some bread and do this in memory of him. If you can do this and live your life by the tenets of the ten commandments then you're arguably more Christian than the fool who believes that attending a bunch of weird rituals prescribed by their church that have little to no basis in the actual bible is what makes them good Christians.

Yes, thats what i said, i agree with you. It doesn't have to be a church but you still need to asseble with others to worship Him and you need to follow the gospel of the bible. I haven't read it myself and have no intention of doing so, but that is what i have read from websites that give an un-abridged version :)

Man, the 10 commandments are just common sense. Don't screw another mans wife, wow, what a freaking revelation. Don't lie to people, wow, would never ever have thought of that one. Don't kill people, well, lucky they said something because i was just considering going on a muderous rampage :rolleyes:

Organised relegion is crap IMO. Its always this relegion is right and every other one is wrong, and please drop a $10 note in the basket on the way around and alter boy johnny can you please stay behind after this serman to help the minister with something.

Just live your life treating other people the way you want to be treated.

I'll shut up know as i don't have enough knowledge on the matter to continue.

johnny

11-03-2005, 10:19 AM

You left out Al Qaeda, the Tamil tigers, the Sudanese NIF, the Hizbollah, etc, etc. In fact, half of the world's top thirty terrorist groups claim religion as their motivation. Which ironically enough, gives World Vision and the Red Cross plenty of work to do. Ain't religion great? Already mentioned Al Qaeda in a reply to Naz. I'm not overly informed on the Tamils, but I 'm pretty sure that it's a seccessionist/independence movement. Yes, many terrorist groups do claim religion as a motivation, I never said that it didn't happen, as a matter of fact I've said "cause of most wars" weren't because of religion, not "no wars" and I've even posted some that did. Also, terrorism may not be considered "war". For if it did, Timothy Mcveigh had a war against Oklahoma for the split second it took to detonate one bomb, The Ananda Marga (SP?) were at war with Australia etc. The common concensus seems to be that terrorism is an act of political violence (doesn't even always have to be political) not "war". I would've thought the best example would have been the Crusades, but then again, there was also an element of geographical sovereignty involved there too.

Also, I never attempted to absolve ALL religious acts, simply to say that you have to look at the whole picture. For there are also some fine things done by religious people that are nothing to do with cleaning up some one else's religious acts........Wayside chapel for one (street kids home in Sydney). Yest there are some ugly things in the name of religion, but there also some good. I think that's pretty undeniable mate.

What the? Only wars started in the 20th Century? Cmon play fair - the majority of wars EVER. Not just since the decentralisation of mainstream religion. Besides, their was significant involvement from major religious groups I never said there weren't religious types involved, I'm sure almost every army in the world has had a religious soldier in it, doesn't mean that's what started/caused the war.....?!

Hmmm what was that little conflict in Bosnia about again? Or the thing in the middle east with those guys with hats? Wow, that narrows it down....!? Or those happy go lucky Irish folk? Oh yeah, the Irish Religious Army, that's what their called isn't it? Mate I've already covered this point a few posts ago. Just because there is a difference in religious beliefs does not mean this was the CAUSE of the war. I do believe it is a conflict over the sovereignty of Northern Ireland, not over which church is right or wrong. For if that was the case, shouldn't they be attacking all Prodestant countries? Lets not forget the support Pope Pius XII and his support of Hitler. That's something that I am aware of, but have zero knowledge on In fact, several times people have regarded facism/communism as psuedo-religious, which could actually be used to conclude WW I and II were religious wars. yeah but that is seriously just making shit up. Facism is a violent intense nationalism, no deity or spiritualism there, Communism is an economic ideology, once again no deity, Idol (Marxism, Stalinism and Leninism were cults of personality, a FAR cry from a spiritual figure) or spirituality there either. Please don't tell me that you're equating believing or doing something "religiously" as religion itself :confused: Anyway, how was WW1 due to either communism or fascism? I would have claimed it was a war over the means of industrial production.......
Ah forget it.

OK, wars before industrialisation......., the Napoleanic, the Mongolian expansionism, Zulu wars against the British (have to admit that I'm not too sure of the time period there though), Swedish expansionism throughout Europe in the mid second millenium, there are many I could add.

Mate there's no doubt that many wars were started because of spiritual beliefs, Tai'ping revolution, certain aspects of Al Qaeda's actions (I'm more than happy to post a letter from bin Laden that speaks so much more about US bases in Saudi Arabia, Palestinian oppression/occupation etc. than them being Islamic and America Christian) The conflict between India and Pakistan during partition, the Iran Iraq 8 year war had a certain Sunni vs Shi'ite element to it (but was also a cold war proxy conflict) and so on. But when it comes to pre-industrialisation conflict, I'm not confident that too many people who make the religious claim have an indepth knowledge of these events. If you are willing to debate the point (instead of saying your piece and then adding forget it at the end :rolleyes: ) you list your wars STARTED/CAUSED by religion and I'll list mine that weren't. I'm tipping mine will be longer by far.

11-03-2005, 10:28 AM

Yes, thats what i said, i agree with you. It doesn't have to be a church but you still need to asseble with others to worship Him and you need to follow the gospel of the bible. I haven't read it myself and have no intention of doing so, but that is what i have read from websites that give an un-abridged version :)

Man, the 10 commandments are just common sense. Don't screw another mans wife, wow, what a freaking revelation. Don't lie to people, wow, would never ever have thought of that one. Don't kill people, well, lucky they said something because i was just considering going on a muderous rampage :rolleyes:

Organised relegion is crap IMO. Its always this relegion is right and every other one is wrong, and please drop a $10 note in the basket on the way around and alter boy johnny can you please stay behind after this serman to help the minister with something.

Just live your life treating other people the way you want to be treated.

I'll shut up know as i don't have enough knowledge on the matter to continue.

Now you're just being overly presumptuous. So you've never read the bible but you can tell somebody whether they're christian or not based on whether they take part in superficial rituals? Nice work, God.

Whoever said the ten commandments were meant to be some big surprise? They ARE common sense, and that's the way it should be. Seems better to me than "Women shalt cover every freakin part of thy bodies; shouldst any part thereof be visible in public, they shalt be stoned to death" or "Thou shalt not cut the corners of thy beard" (not 100% sure, but I *think* that's a Jewish ritual that has pretty much been abandoned now? I remember some rabbi telling me that years ago). The commandments are just a basic guide for how to live "well". If everyone actually followed them (regardless of the religious side of it) the world would probably be a better place. In fact, if most religion was taken the way (I think) it was intended, it would actually benefit the world hugely. It's when you get hardliners and pushy bastards that you get problems - if they just stuck to the "love thy neighbour" etc we'd be all set.

johnny

11-03-2005, 10:32 AM

I haven't read it [the Bible] myself and have no intention of doing so, Then I think this puts you at a distinct disadvantage when analysing it's contents mate ;) (I'm assuming the bit's you've read on the web weren't the positive parts either, I'm thinking of the crazy stuff that comes from the old testament about stoning recalcitrant children and wives etc.)

Organised relegion is crap IMO. Its always this relegion is right and every other one is wrong, and please drop a $10 note in the basket on the way around and alter boy johnny HEY :eek: can you please stay behind after this serman to help the minister with something. I would guess that there is more child abuse outside the Church than there is in. The Church doesn't have a monopoly over this practice and just because a few do it doesn't mean you can judge all involved the same way.
Just live your life treating other people the way you want to be treated.

I'll shut up know as i don't have enough knowledge on the matter to continue.

I agree with you when you say it's a security thing for many. Most humans are afraid of the unknown, what's the biggest unknown? Death. So if you're told that everything will be all warm and fuzzy in the "after life" if you just do ABC, it can become a type of insurance policy against the unknown. I don't think the Bible even says that you must worship with others, I honestly can't remember reading that one, but hey, it's a bloody big book!

Shut up! I'm supposed to be writing an essay! :mad: :p

johnny

11-03-2005, 10:36 AM

"Thou shalt not cut the corners of thy beard" (not 100% sure, but I *think* that's a Jewish ritual that has pretty much been abandoned now? I remember some rabbi telling me that years ago). The commandments are just a basic guide for how to live "well". If everyone actually followed them (regardless of the religious side of it) the world would probably be a better place. In fact, if most religion was taken the way (I think) it was intended, it would actually benefit the world hugely. It's when you get hardliners and pushy bastards that you get problems - if they just stuck to the "love thy neighbour" etc we'd be all set.

doesn't come any more salient than that!

Many Jews still grow that wacky hair style, it cracks me up everytime I see it. But hey, props to them for being stout in their beliefs (....no matter how odd they may seem :D )

Cave Dweller

11-03-2005, 10:53 AM

But hey, props to them for being stout in their beliefs

Which is my major problem with organised relegion.

How can someone like George Bush (and most americans) call themselves christian and against gays and abortion but happy enough to kill thousands or Iraqis for oil and making LOTS of money from it.

It just pisses me off that people call themselves a beleiver of a certain faith and then pick and choose what they beleive in. Its not a freaking McDonalds order, "I'll take one anti abortion and gays with a side order of 9 out of 10 comandments becasue i don't like the look of the must not cover thy neigbours wife", "Would you like a coke with that", "Yes, super sized please"

To me it's black and white. You either follow it or you don't. Or is there a measure of chritianity, when you get you before Him is it like a test, if you get above 50% christian you get into heaven, and below you go to hell?

If you are taking that stance that relegion is a personal thing and open to interpretation, well then, im christain (by baptism) because i believe in a creator and live my life by the simple rule of treating others how i want to be treated, but i don't beleive in going to church, or reading the bible. So im still going to heaven right becasue thats what i have picked and choose to beleive in and follow.

And S., shut up :D Are you saying chritianity is a better relegion then being a muslum? Opeing up a BIG can of worms there mate, but hey, at least they follow theirbeleifs so good for them.

toodles

11-03-2005, 10:57 AM

you are willing to debate the point (instead of saying your piece and then adding forget it at the end :rolleyes: ) you list your wars STARTED/CAUSED by religion and I'll list mine that weren't. I'm tipping mine will be longer by far.

Yeah I apologise for the fairly disorganised post. It was early and the caffeine hadn't kicked in yet. Anyway, I'm not arguing against the merits of religious belief - indeed our entire legal structure is pretty much based on it. I do agree that millions of great humanitarian acts are carried out every year as a direct result of religious movements. I don't even really care what people choose to believe - unless they try to cram it down my throat, pressure governments to restrict my freedoms, access or beliefs, or use their beliefs as an excuse to blow up a nightclub packed with my mates.

Ok here's my points, terrorism may be political in nature, but as long as the call to arms used by these groups is specifically religious in nature then they are trying to embark in a "just war" scenario or religious war. Terrorism is an act of war IMO - on the same level as any coup or assasaination. Regardless, even if we disregard terrorism entirely traditional military campaigns have long used religion as their motivation.

The Crusades were too obvious to bother with. Yes you can look at them as having other motivations but they cleary used religion as the crux of their motivation. And herein lies the difference you and I are seeing - no war in history has ever been motivated by a single defining reason. My point is that in practically every conflict in history someone on some side has used religion to condone the struggle. You're saying that these conflicts generally tend have other ulterior motives (ie. land, oil, Campbells fork vs. spoon debate) but that doesn't necessarily mean that their campaigns were bereft of religious significance.

In uncountable instances religious leaders have hypocritically discarded their own teachings of forgiveness and peace, and sanctioned violence against fellow humans. This disgusts me. Do you know how rich the Vatican is? That's something that strikes me as peculiar given the Bible's stance on material wealth.

Still I'd like to say I don't hold any grudge against any religious group that respects my freedom of choice. Until they wake me up at 7am on a Saturday and stuff pamphlets in my face. :mad:

11-03-2005, 11:05 AM

And S., shut up :D Are you saying chritianity is a better relegion then being a muslum? Opeing up a BIG can of worms there mate, but hey, at least they follow theirbeleifs so good for them.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Or could it be that I'm saying that those particular commandments are much more sensible than various other religious expectations (including a lot of things which are in the old testament, such as stoning a rape victim to death if nobody hears her cries)? -1 point for you.

Oh and yeah, you're right, if you don't follow religious teachings to the letter, you go to hell. There's no leeway at all. That's why there's dozens of different churches with different interpretations, rituals and emphasis on the same basic religion - it's just to confuse people (because obviously only one of them - at best - can be following the bible precisely) and send more people to hell. Or maybe you missed that part of the bible, kind of like the rest of it. -1 point for you.

BTW, your anti-religion hardline stance is just as dumb as the pro-religion hardline stance.

johnny

11-03-2005, 01:17 PM

Which is my major problem with organised relegion.

How can someone like George Bush (and most americans) call themselves christian and against gays and abortion but happy enough to kill thousands or Iraqis for oil and making LOTS of money from it.

It just pisses me off that people call themselves a beleiver of a certain faith and then pick and choose what they beleive in. Therefore, the problem is not the religion itself, but what man does with it. Its not a freaking McDonalds order, "I'll take one anti abortion and gays with a side order of 9 out of 10 comandments becasue i don't like the look of the must not cover thy neigbours wife", "Would you like a coke with that", "Yes, super sized please" Hah! :D best way I've ever heard it put yet! Nice one!

To me it's black and white. You either follow it or you don't. Or is there a measure of chritianity, when you get you before Him is it like a test, if you get above 50% christian you get into heaven, and below you go to hell?

If you are taking that stance that relegion is a personal thing and open to interpretation, well then, im christain (by baptism) because i believe in a creator and live my life by the simple rule of treating others how i want to be treated, but i don't beleive in going to church, or reading the bible. So im still going to heaven right becasue thats what i have picked and choose to beleive in and follow.

And S., shut up :D Are you saying chritianity is a better relegion then being a muslum? Opeing up a BIG can of worms there mate, but hey, at least they follow theirbeleifs so good for them.

Some interesting and good points there mate!

Cave Dweller

11-03-2005, 01:55 PM

BTW, your anti-religion hardline stance is just as dumb as the pro-religion hardline stance.

Ummm.......... excuse me mister S., where exactly did i say i was anti relegion? Hmmmmm....???

For someone that is supposed to be smart you obvioulsy can't read. Saying that i think organised relegion is crap does not mean i am anti relegion :rolleyes:

johnny

11-03-2005, 02:44 PM

Yeah I apologise for the fairly disorganised post. It was early and the caffeine hadn't kicked in yet. Anyway, I'm not arguing against the merits of religious belief - indeed our entire legal structure is pretty much based on it. I do agree that millions of great humanitarian acts are carried out every year as a direct result of religious movements. I don't even really care what people choose to believe - unless they try to cram it down my throat, pressure governments to restrict my freedoms, access or beliefs, or use their beliefs as an excuse to blow up a nightclub packed with my mates.

Ok here's my points, terrorism may be political in nature, but as long as the call to arms used by these groups is specifically religious in nature then they are trying to embark in a "just war" scenario or religious war. Terrorism is an act of war IMO - on the same level as any coup or assasaination. Regardless, even if we disregard terrorism entirely traditional military campaigns have long used religion as their motivation.

The Crusades were too obvious to bother with. Yes you can look at them as having other motivations but they cleary used religion as the crux of their motivation. And herein lies the difference you and I are seeing - no war in history has ever been motivated by a single defining reason. My point is that in practically every conflict in history someone on some side has used religion to condone the struggle. You're saying that these conflicts generally tend have other ulterior motives (ie. land, oil, Campbells fork vs. spoon debate) but that doesn't necessarily mean that their campaigns were bereft of religious significance.

In uncountable instances religious leaders have hypocritically discarded their own teachings of forgiveness and peace, and sanctioned violence against fellow humans. This disgusts me. Do you know how rich the Vatican is? That's something that strikes me as peculiar given the Bible's stance on material wealth.

Still I'd like to say I don't hold any grudge against any religious group that respects my freedom of choice. Until they wake me up at 7am on a Saturday and stuff pamphlets in my face. :mad:

Damn Damn Damn! That's one hell of a well thought out argument!

I'm going to go away and think about it for a while......

I need to go poo poo :o

dilemma

11-03-2005, 02:50 PM

I need to go poo poo :o

Is is just me or is anyone else feeling waaaay too acquainted with Johnny's bowel movements? :rolleyes:

jks Johnny. You go have yourself a nice poo.

SKT

11-03-2005, 03:18 PM

I can't resist.

I am a Christian and lovin' it :D

It's for me and me alone. I don't have to do good to get there but I know its part of my end of the bargain and regardless of what it looks like when I do it, it helps someone out and that's the bottom line for me. Note I am using very simple jargon not holy holy holy type churchy gobbldee-gook not to belittle anyone but because thats what I am, a simple man with a love for Jesus, my wife, my dog and Downhill. I don' t see my way of worship as a religion, church isn't always for me, too many methods and programs makin' it waaaaaay too complicated, for me it's a relationship with God not a religion. I still drink beer, I swear all the time and if I have an off I bruise. If you saw me at the trails you'd never know.

Religion???
I know people that bleed their brakes religiously.
People that go to the footy religiously.

My worship of God is based purely on experience, on a transformation that occured at hte age of 26 (5 years ago) from a way of life that was not doing me any good, infact it was gonna kill me or have me locked up for sure. I sunk, looked around for help and a direction became apprarent (God's direction) and things turned around, big time.

In the end, for me personally, if I am right then whos knows what will happen to you dudes because I will be heaven.. Too late then huh?
If oyu guys are right, then we end up doin' something or other and we all lived the life/lifestyle that we saw best, end of story.

Yeah, I got a heap to say about Christ my Lord and sin and so on but thats not what this is about at all. You might think I lost control of my life and now can't make choices for myself? I can asure you I actually have the ability to make more choices now because..... Well..... I don't know exactly know why but I can after listening to what God has/had to say.

As for war..... Hmmmm....... Yeah it seems that it's about religion and yanks are infamous for waving that banner but I see other reasons that ensures the history of the world unfolds in a particular fashion in order to meet a specific end-state, mainly God's plan.
War??? I and many of you know these days it's purely political and territorial and as for the recent bouts in Afghanistan and Iraq well it's about oil. Guys and girls that I meet and discover I am a soldier in the Australian Army want to give ME a hard time for what I represent and support. Then.... they get in the Mazda 323 wearing their Reeboks and go to the BP to buy fuel so they can pick their uncle up from the airport after his holiday in Bali. Getting my point? Without that war shit you don't get those other luxurys. I'm not condoning the current international state of affairs, it freakin' horrid, but some people really need to see what I belive to be the real motives for war these days.
And no, not all war is over oil. I am being quite specifc there purely as Iraq is a good example because it is a well publicised example and most can identify with it.

I got mine, you got yours....... I am not preaching as far as I can tell. I'd just like to be seen as a normal guy down the trails not some brain washed robot that has lost all ability to make my own decisions and just wanna start a war with some country because it eats french toast on wednesdays or some stupid shit like that and my fat black book says it shant be doneth.

In summary......
as said by one of the smartest men to ever grace the planet Earth, Homer J. Simpson.

"Damn you Rock'em Sock'em Robots, why cant' we all just get along"

demo man

11-03-2005, 04:25 PM

hey guys (and gals),

this topic sure is a hot one huh?

this thread seems pretty much wraped up, but i read this quote about 30 seconds ago and thought of this thread straight away

"just going to church makes you no more of a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car"

pretty funny huh?

no?

oh well, i liked it :)

Cheers guys,
and props on the great convo

johnny

11-03-2005, 05:31 PM

I can't resist.

I am a Christian and lovin' it :D

Good onya brother and all more pwer to ya! ;)

scblack

11-03-2005, 06:04 PM

"just going to church makes you no more of a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car"

A very good point, and one which my wife often tells me about. She believes in god and all, but never goes to church, isn't devout and all that sort of guff.

She believes being a christian is more of a state of mind. A christian will help others, for instance, if ever they need it. They will not harp on others, to be a christian, they believe in god of course, but don't go on about it. Money is not the purpose of christianity, it's more about being of good mind and intentions. That is all more her ideas on christianity - there's more of course but thats a bit of her ideas.

Here's an interesting little story on the same idea:
A man I worked with, who was a CEO of a large insurance company had an interesting "interaction" with a colleague who was antagonising him. The CEO's colleague knew he did not go to church much, and wanted to make a point against him (in earshot of other executives). He asked "So if you're such a devout christian, why do you not attend church?" The CEO replied "I do not need to be in church to be with God, in my mind I am with him at all times". Thus my mate the CEO got plenty of points back at his colleagues expense.

Sounds like I'm giving a christian speech here, but my point is kinda, that you don't really even need to be religious as such to be a christian - just have good attitudes.

I personally don't believe in god, but you guys who do, way you go, and all power to you. I even once had a mate call me immoral for not believing in god, but I don't steal, I don't kill and so on, and my ethical standards etc are very high (I'm a CPA), so thats all you need I reckon - good values. Wish more people had better values. :)

FR Drew

11-03-2005, 08:24 PM

Sounds like I'm giving a christian speech here, but my point is kinda, that you don't really even need to be religious as such to be a christian - just have good attitudes.

I personally don't believe in god, but you guys who do, way you go, and all power to you. I even once had a mate call me immoral for not believing in god, but I don't steal, I don't kill and so on, and my ethical standards etc are very high (I'm a CPA), so thats all you need I reckon - good values. Wish more people had better values. :)

Right there with you about the ethics and behavioural standards being what any just higher power/deity would judge his creation upon but I'm afraid many christians don't see it that way. (especially those with a tendancy to pluck out a verse to prove their point)

Such as...

Da da da dum (drumrolll please...)
John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Basic gist being that God don't give a hoot what your behaviour is, "you're a gonna burn" unless you believe.

Personally, this one gets trotted out alot by what I'd term as "sunday christians" (they're the ones who sing loud, put money in the collection tin, puff about pompous about how righteous they are, go to youth group and study class and then spend the rest of the week backstabbing half their friends and any unbelievers who happen to cross their path)

Now the way I figure it, any deity with the power to create something with all this amazing stuff in it (Galaxies, stars, planets, Hans Rey, Downhill, SRAM and all that other really cool stuff) is probably mature enough not to be stupid and petty about the precise details of belief and really wants her creations to do their best, have a good attitude and so on, not be fawning followers. (this applies to any religion with a single or group of creators really)

Am I right? Am I damned? I have no idea, and by the time I'm in a position to know, it'll all be too late. In the meantime, I try to do unto others, be a good friend, nice bloke and all that stuff. There's a lot of Karma in this lil old Christian world, even if the Christians don't all believe in it.

Read "Stranger in a Strange Land" it'll change your life. (and make your Christian girlfriend dump you)

Drew

scblack

11-03-2005, 08:58 PM

Read "Stranger in a Strange Land" it'll change your life. (and make your Christian girlfriend dump you)

Drew

FR Drew, sounds like you're on my wavelength matey, and Robert Heinlein's book is a real eye-opener - and not just in a science fiction manner - great read.

wombat

11-03-2005, 09:07 PM

her
Don't think we didn't notice ;) But I can dig that. :)

johnny

12-03-2005, 01:29 AM

Ok here's my points, terrorism may be political in nature, but as long as the call to arms used by these groups is specifically religious in nature then they are trying to embark in a "just war" scenario or religious war. Terrorism is an act of war IMO - on the same level as any coup or assasaination. Regardless, even if we disregard terrorism entirely traditional military campaigns have long used religion as their motivation.

All good points but I have to make some of my own. I don't want to sound like I'm splitting hairs, but the distinctions are important to me. I say this for I'm currently working (my arse off) to earn a position in diplomatic relations which will essentially be interstate conflict resolution. Therefore distinctions between motivation and motivators, which I believe you are confusing, mean a lot to me. An example:

When Bush invades Iraq his motivation may be national security *coughbullshit, yet when he says God is on our side, he is using this as his motivator. When Hitler invaded Poland/France/Russia his motivation may have been to controll Europe's processes of production, yet he used nationalism/fascism/Nazism as a motivator of peoples will (some one else's theory).

This is important for if you understand the premise/motivation of a conflict, you have a basis for negotiating. If you understand the motivators used, you understand the mind set you will be dealing with on the ground (not all decisions in conflict come from above. MAny things happen in conflict due to a spiral of fast moving events. This was the biggest issue many were fearful of recently in Pakistan/India. Millions of border troops facing off where one accidental artillery shell could escalate into full scale war literally within a matter of days, not weeks or months but days and hours. This was especially worrying for Pakistan is a good deal smaller in military terms and therefore did NOT have a no nukes first policy.

If you know what motivators are being used (religion, money [mercs], drugs/child soldiers, traditional emnities, racial difference etc) you know what future situations you may have to deal with and situations to avaid at all costs. It is a big distinction when you are attempting to manipulate the problem.

The Crusades were too obvious to bother with yeah, sure they were ;) . Yes you can look at them as having other motivations but they cleary used religion as the crux of their motivation. And herein lies the difference you and I are seeing - no war in history has ever been motivated by a single defining reason. My point is that in practically every conflict in history someone on some side has used religion to condone the struggle. You're saying that these conflicts generally tend have other ulterior motives (ie. land, oil, Campbells fork vs. spoon debate) but that doesn't necessarily mean that their campaigns were bereft of religious significance.

Agreed. I do although think that there is usually one dominating factor. In Iraq and the wider middle east today I believe ideology is by far the dominant factor. Neo-cons believe that if the world was a liberal democracy with market place economies, interstate (nation) trade would ensure niche capability and interdependence for economic viability. Therefore interstate war would become too expensive and therefore obselete, war would be fought through the dollar (neo-colonialism in a sense). It's nowdays called the McDonalds peace theory: democratic countries have McDonalds, two countries that have McDonalds have never been to war. Only problem is that Bush knows nothing of history. For if he did he'd know that this theory has been floating around since industrialisation and the late 1800's. How many interstate wars have we had since then, not to mention the largest destructive period in human history, 1912-1953. And again Fukyama's "End of History" (Cold War over, democracy beat communism, everyone's going to turn into one big liberal marketplace and live happily ever after. Throw away your history ledgers for you'll have nothing else of interest to enter into them) Bup-Boooooow, along comes the war on terrorism and the US and China are currently eyeing and sizing each other.

BUT! Wait there's more :D Whilst Bush in his delusional state truly has faith in this ideolgy (the man's an idealist not a pragmatist or even realist) many of those involved in policy have other ideas. Wolfowitz agrees with Bush, Rummsfeld is a hardnose that sees the US as the best suited for running the global zoo, Chenny is a capitalist (there's your oil, but don't worry, the Bush and his Texan buddies aren't far behind), other players behind the scenes such as Douglas Feith is a devout supporter of Israel, ex-Attourney General Ashcroft is also a Christian fundementalist that will support Israel till armegeddon (Bush sings this tune quite loudly as well). An unspoken undertone of this picture is that if the world became a democratic market economy, the country with greatest power will be the one with the greatest economy. Of course, this is America.

All interests/motivations converge, yet it was the electorate that needed to approve of the invasion, can anyone remenber their motivator............good ol' WMD. Remember thay funny little acronym? The motivation is what's written above, but the motivator was a threat to the country's safety/survival, chem bio and nuke weapons "on 45 minites notice to fire" :eek: Also was the threat/motivator that Saddam and bin Laden would hook up (never happened, never would). This fear was enough of a motivator for the country to back war.

I believe that to varying degrees, this is a teplate for most wars. Motivation and motivators. Especially so for anything after industrialisation (baring some of the mideast [1st Gulf War had nothing to do with religion, it was oil pure and simple] and much of Africa [but not all: Zulu wars, ethiopia/eritrea, Liberia etc.)

In uncountable instances religious leaders have hypocritically discarded their own teachings of forgiveness and peace, and sanctioned violence against fellow humans. This disgusts me. Do you know how rich the Vatican is? That's something that strikes me as peculiar given the Bible's stance on material wealth.

A Catholic church burned down in Parramatta. It wasn't rebuilt for two years because that's how long the fund raising for it took :confused:

Still I'd like to say I don't hold any grudge against any religious group that respects my freedom of choice. Until they wake me up at 7am on a Saturday and stuff pamphlets in my face. :mad:

BTW, don't think I've forgotten that other terrorism thread either ;) :p

FR Drew

12-03-2005, 07:24 AM

Don't think we didn't notice ;) But I can dig that. :)

Funny how widespread an automatic assumption it is huh?

I guess if you're plucking straight from the bible then it sets the gender at about the second sentence in Genesis "On the second day HE...

Now was this just an assumption on the part of the writers, based upon the gender balance of those in power in their time (kings and rulers are male, therefore it logically follows that the king of kings would be male) or was it inspired writing straight from God, in which case gender politics has no place in the editorial production stream?

I think plucking anything from the bible and applying it literally without analysis, thought and reasoning is dangerous/foolish. Plucking anything totally out of context and using it to prove your point is even more dangerous/questionable. But, it gets done every day, usually for all the wrong reasons (control, power, profit, conservative values, bigotry, racism).

So easy to go on and on and on and in the end achieve/prove nothing.

...sounds like a thread on helmets I once read :-)

RCOH

12-03-2005, 08:25 AM

re religious wars:

The roman empire was (at one stage) the biggest & most powerful empire on earth. It has also been the longest reigning. Seeing as Romans thought of their emperors as God's wouldn't that mean the everytime there was a fight/war/battle involving the roman army it would be religious, because they are fighting for the emperor who is a god. At least until Constantine came along, but was the beginning of the end for the romans, really.... (feel free to correct me if I wrong)

A little story by Fat Mike called 'Happy Guy':

He's just a man getting through life the best he can
He's a not a scientist, he programs a computer
Before that he sold cars to pay a student loan now he receives pity
From his family - his friends say how could he
Turn his back on on reason worshipping
A God finding truth through fear and mind control
He's just a man trying to explain how
He found the word of God could make his life seem less insane
So he shares what he's read, what he understands, it makes
sense to him, it makes perfect sense to him, in fact
He's never seen so clearly
Turned his back on free will - has he lost his mind?
He'd rather kneel down than take charge of his life
And he knows what people think, but it dosen't sway him
He can read the writings on the wall
'Cause he knows how people treat, how they treat each other
A sacrifice to benefit the all
Don't try to judge him, his theological ideas
His hopes may be false but his happiness is real
Don't try to judge him, he's just a man

retardrider

12-03-2005, 12:21 PM

I'm a christian and I still think those comics and almost that whole site are stupid. What a boring life if I lived like that.
"Thou shalt not mountain bike" -God

Joly Joe Rider

12-03-2005, 02:07 PM

I am a christian and a struggling one at that. I struggle to come to terms with it because I am also if you can't touch it see it hear it smell it or do some kind of experiment to prove that it exists then it doesn't.
But an interesting thing happend just before Christmas.
I am a concreter.
We were pouring a slab using a pump (for those that may not know it just a crane that is used to pump the concrete instead of using a wheel barrow). While waiting for another load of concrete, I was staring off into the distant watching some kids wrestle in a park and having a good old day dream about how good it would to be a kid again. Little did I know I was standing directly under the crane. For an instant I came back to reality and for no apparent reason just started to pace. On my second step the crane came crashing down right were I had been standing.
Some will say it was coinciedental and they may be right but I feel that maybe there was someone out there looking out for me.

But I am not a bible basher and alot of my freinds are christians as well but are also not bible bashers.
Infact some of the young people that go to the church I infrequently go to like to act all prim and proper, they look down at me because I have inhereted bad language from my co workers and becuase I turn up to church twice a year. Yet from previuos encounters they are druged up drunks and probably some of the most premiscuos people I know. Its as if they put up this christian front to make them feel better about themselves as people.

I also know people who are other beleifs (my Fiance is one) They respect my beliefs and I respect theres. For all thoughs that say that the islams and such are worshiping a fake god I say this originally written about homosexuals -
- "All thoughs millions of people can't be wrong can they?"

FR Drew

12-03-2005, 02:30 PM

I am a christian and a struggling one at that. I struggle to come to terms with it because I am also if you can't touch it see it hear it smell it or do some kind of experiment to prove that it exists then it doesn't.

I had the same problem (around the time I was 8 if I recall correctly). I think it was to do with Noah and the flood. something along the lines of:
"So how big is a cubit"
"(blah blah: measurement)"
"And so how do you fit that many animals in a boat that size plus all the food they need?"
"ummm..."

It was kind of all downhill from there really. Those that quoth scripture simply take the easy route and accuse me of having a lack of faith. Provided that you blindly follow and don't question any of the inconsistencies, being a Christian is really easy. In the time when I was struggling with my faith, I asked my (then) girlfriend about some of the more troubling aspects of the old testament I was trying to deal with. She was very devout and I was sure she might offer me guidance. She responded:
"Oh, I don't know, I never read that bit."

Basically, she (and many others in the youth group/church community) were simply ignoring any aspects of being a Christian that might require thought or faith on their part and tootling around telling each other how to behave based on selective quoting of this and that from the later teachings parts.

In the end, based upon a bit in 1 Corinthians "you should not be yoked with non-believers" the elders in the youth group told her that I was unworthy and she should dump me. No matter that Iloved her, was looking out for her more than anyone else in the church was, cared about her wellbeing, respected her beliefs, was attempting to reconcile my scientific side with gospel teachings etc etc. Nope, I was a non beleiver and therefore bad. Case Closed. End of discussion.

Been a bit dark about that particular breed of Christians since then.

It's easy to believe when you ignore all the challenging bits. It's easy to prove anything when you quote selectively out of context.

My ex used to use a verse (can't recall where from exactly) to explain any horrid and inexplicable things that happen as being part of God's plan.

"Now do not see, but one day you will understand" I think it was...

I looked it up once to see how it explained that all thing were part of gods plan. Turned out that it was Jesus talking to a troubled disciple about why he was washing the disciples feet. Hardly an explanation for universal truth.

As for "Thou shalt not mountain bike" being said by God,

I was sure it's what my mother told me at Christmas!

Joly Joe Rider

12-03-2005, 03:13 PM

"ummm..."

It was kind of all downhill from there really.

Isn't downhill a good thing - could never really understand those XC guys. But then from what has been said earlier in this thread - then maybe downhill was started by pissed off renegade christians mtbers and all the current pros will go on to become evil demons in the next life corrupting the young XC christians. And if thats the case how do freeriders fit in?

Those that quoth scripture simply take the easy route and accuse me of having a lack of faith. Provided that you blindly follow and don't question any of the inconsistencies, being a Christian is really easy.

Ban the who seek to understand. They piss me off and I love arguing with them because they always use the bible to back themselves up but when you ask for there opinion - not another qoute from the bible, they are absolutly stumped.

In the time when I was struggling with my faith, I asked my (then) girlfriend about some of the more troubling aspects of the old testament I was trying to deal with. She was very devout and I was sure she might offer me guidance. She responded:
"Oh, I don't know, I never read that bit."

Basically, she (and many others in the youth group/church community) were simply ignoring any aspects of being a Christian that might require thought or faith on their part and tootling around telling each other how to behave based on selective quoting of this and that from the later teachings parts.

In the end, based upon a bit in 1 Corinthians "you should not be yoked with non-believers" the elders in the youth group told her that I was unworthy and she should dump me. No matter that Iloved her, was looking out for her more than anyone else in the church was, cared about her wellbeing, respected her beliefs, was attempting to reconcile my scientific side with gospel teachings etc etc. Nope, I was a non beleiver and therefore bad. Case Closed. End of discussion.

And that really sucks. for a religion that seeks to encourage everyone to be saved by faith they reject you. I am currently going through the same bullshit.

I think a lot of these so called christians take the bible out of context wanting to translate it exactly as it is read rather than a guide of how we should live.
Like it wasn't that you weren't a believer its that you were struggling to understand.

johnny

12-03-2005, 06:06 PM

We make the choice whether we sin or not, that's up to us apparently. Yet other times we're told "It's all part of God's great plan for the world".

So, do we make our own choices, or are we predestined to ascend/descend and have no say in it?

I don't think the contradiction is in the religion, but in man's argument of it. I agree with FR Drew, Scblack, Jolly Joe etc. You can never step foot in a church, read the bible or pray to God or thank Jesus and still be a Christian (type) that has lived a good life.

Example, if I do all the necessary things such as not kill steal, covert, adulterate etc. I care for the needy and sacrifice for others and in general be a good compassionate meek person....all because of a belief in doing good, not for acceptance into heaven. Isn't this the behaviour that God asks of us? Or do we NEED to give thanks (for a life forced upon us), praise his almightiness...simply because he is almighty, or thank Jesus for dying for my (near non-existant) sins albeit when I never wanted to be in his debt? (Not a self portrait, simply an example for arguments sake).

If I have to "praise" God and thank him for something I never wanted, that would make him an egotistical totalitarian dictator and if I do go to hell for not praising him, that would mean that he is NOT a benevolent God, but certainly a vengeful God.

Once again, this problem I have is not with the religion, but it's proponents that argue on blind faith alone about something they have little if no knowledge of. For if they do have knowledge, where did they get it from? If it comes from divine intervention, then all well and good for I can by no means claim it's non-existance. But if they claim they get their info from the Bible, I reply that they are not reading God's words, but those of people that lived thousands of years ago. Some of which were around well before the supposed son of God, supposedly lived. Alternatively they were people that lived hundreds of years after he died and worked from Chinese wispers and religious documents that at the time resembled more political documents. For at this time in history, theology was theocracy.

The disciples that wrote their part in the bible that allegedly got their info straight from Jesus have had their words rewritten, translated and manipulated over 2000 years. Let us at this point remember that until the enlightenment (industrialisation 1800-1900 basically), religion was politics. This ensures that ambition encouraged manipulation of spirituality to engineer personal power. If you do not understand my meaning, look up the Spanish Inquisition and Torquemada (sp?).

When I consider this aspect, the faith that I am asked to have seems to be less than faith in God, and more in the fact that the Bible hasn't been turned into a whole load of crap over the years. Sorry, I don't have faith that it is even 50% relevent. Give me the 10 commandments, and the REAL premise of the main three monotheistic religions: Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. Simple as that.

Is anyone aware what usury is? Look it up in the dictionary. When you do, think about this: Usury was against the rules of all three religions, until it didn't suit society anymore and was removed........

I wear a Tshirt that says "Your rules, your God. You burn in hell"! For some reason, whenever I wear it I always seem to come across a nun or priest and feel like an arsehole :(

wombat

12-03-2005, 07:07 PM

I don't think the contradiction is in the religion, but in man's argument of it.
How exactly do you have "religion" without man?

I do agree with your argument that the theory itself isn't necessarily the problem, and that the individual's choices/actions are the issue, but I don't think that we can consider "religion" as an entity without considering that it is a creation of man in the first place.

I'm not going to try and claim too much, as my knowledge of particular religions is limited, I also won't deny the existance of a deity; I can't prove there is no god, and no one can prove there is so that'll have to be a stalemate.

Through this thread though, I have noticed a lot of people saying that christianity (along with other religions) are not "evil" or discrimatory in nature, and that it is simply the misuse of religious ideals as justification for unjust actions, by humans that is the issue.

But religion was created by humans. Was it not humans who wrote the bible? Yes, maybe it's human error in the interpretations of religious writings that causes the issues, but maybe the issues actually do lie in the religion itself; I mean, if we can mess up interpretations, who's to say that the humans who wrote it in the first place didn't get it wrong?

I hope no one takes this as an attack on any religions, I'm just hypothethising. I believe that many religious ideals are brillant, but I also believe there are a lot of contradictions and out dated beliefs that are maintained to be "God's way".

If we as humans, as a society are capable of evolving and becoming more liberal and accepting, I'd sure hope that God is capable of it too.

FR Drew

13-03-2005, 05:38 AM

[QUOTE=wombat] I also won't deny the existance of a deity; I can't prove there is no god, and no one can prove there is so that'll have to be a stalemate.
[QUOTE]

Wombat, you know there's a God, you work with tube amps :-)

Easiest way to hear God, you get to see the light and if you're not careful it's easiest way to meet God.

MrPlow

13-03-2005, 08:23 PM

I know there is a God. Today I found out all about pressure cleaners, mains power lines, and safety switches. Mr Plow is still alive :D

naz

13-03-2005, 08:33 PM

wasnt the bible translated into english by free masons?

johnny

13-03-2005, 09:16 PM

wasnt the bible translated into english by free masons?

No no, they set up the fake moon landing :rolleyes:

naz

13-03-2005, 09:24 PM

No no, they set up the fake moon landing :rolleyes:

fucken americans

meh theres more controversy in religion than paris hiltons porno.

toodles

14-03-2005, 08:07 AM

A Catholic church burned down in Parramatta. It wasn't rebuilt for two years because that's how long the fund raising for it took

Yeah the money travels in only one direction in my experience.

It's impossible to retrospectively attribute motivation and motivators particularly when there may be several. In the past, it was often soley a single leaders decision to go to war and we can never be sure of their sincerity regarding their "religious" motivations.

I'm happy to admit my beef is more with the churches and their followers than the faith they pretend to have.

johnny

14-03-2005, 08:39 AM

Yeah the money travels in only one direction in my experience.

It's impossible to retrospectively attribute motivation and motivators particularly when there may be several. In the past, it was often soley a single leaders decision to go to war and we can never be sure of their sincerity regarding their "religious" motivations.

I'm happy to admit my beef is more with the churches and their followers than the faith they pretend to have.

Yeah there's an amazing amount of hipocracy when it comes to churches and money/power.

I also have another shirt that says "I don't mind God, it's his fan club that I can't stand".

toodles

14-03-2005, 08:52 AM

"I don't mind God, it's his fan club that I can't stand".

Amen to that :p

orchie

14-03-2005, 10:22 AM

If we as humans, as a society are capable of evolving and becoming more liberal and accepting, I'd sure hope that God is capable of it too.

Man, that really opens up an opportunity to provide an opinion that may be seen as Bible bashing... hence I won't do it :)

Suffice to say I'm a Christian, and for me that means having a relationship with God. I left my church recently because of a number of reasons - one of which was that they were to focused on politics and self improvement techniques and not enough on the stuff I thought mattered. I'd say I'm between churches... but that doesn't mean between God.

When asked to sum up "the law" Jesus said 1. Love God; and 2. Love your neighbour. If someone claims to be a Christian and doesn't follow those two tenets then I would have to ask what they really believe.

Grant

johnny

14-03-2005, 11:18 AM

When asked to sum up "the law" Jesus said 1. Love God; and 2. Love your neighbour. If someone claims to be a Christian and doesn't follow those two tenets then I would have to ask what they really believe.

Grant

Then I pose this question to you:

Example, if I do all the necessary things such as not kill steal, covert, adulterate etc. I care for the needy and sacrifice for others and in general be a good compassionate meek person....all because of a belief in doing good, not for acceptance into heaven. Isn't this the behaviour that God asks of us? Or do we NEED to give thanks (for a life forced upon us), praise his almightiness...simply because he is almighty, or thank Jesus for dying for my (near non-existant) sins albeit when I never wanted to be in his debt? (Not a self portrait, simply an example for arguments sake).

If I have to "praise" God and thank him for something I never wanted, that would make him an egotistical totalitarian dictator and if I do go to hell for not praising him, that would mean that he is NOT a benevolent God, but certainly a vengeful God, yes/no? Why/why not.

These fundemental questions are at the heart of whether a religion should be taken seriously or not. If something doesn't make sense, then I cannot have faith in it.

leighha

14-03-2005, 12:20 PM

"If something doesn't make sense, then I cannot have faith in it."
Johnny
You simply have faith in what you call "sense".
I don't think there is a honest reading of the bible as a whole that does not present the christian god as a vengeful one. Hell can only be concieved of as a threat given the way it has been used by the church through history. Love thy neighbour knowing that if they do not conform to your view of the world they will go to hell. That it is my personal reading of the bible, I think bible presents a very strange concept of "love" . It is a very "good" book though.

Cave Dweller

14-03-2005, 12:20 PM

I also have another shirt that says "I don't mind God, it's his fan club that I can't stand".

Can you make me one, please :)

I was thinking the other day, and this is not meant to be a shot at anyone, but in differant relegions they have differant Gods and they say worshipping any other God is wrong. My question is, is the Devil for each relegion differant, is Hell differant for differant relegions, or is it all the same Hell? If it is the same hell then we could also say that all Gods worshipped must be the same person as there can't be only one hell but multiple heavens. Therefore no relegion is better then any other relegion.

My other question is, and this is made slightly tounge in cheak, if i was to say, worship the devil, and was a good devil worshipper and killed people etc i would go to hell right, but if i was to be a bad devil worshipper and live a good life, don't worhsip the devil weekley etc does that mean i will go to heaven? Seems like a loophole in the God/Devil thing here and could be a way to assure you go to heaven without having to worship anyone ;)

orchie

14-03-2005, 12:23 PM

Then I pose this question to you:

Don't know how many times I've rewritten this response - hopefully I've worded it well enough.

The concept of doing right by others, charity etc as you've lined out is all great stuff. A Christian would believe that you are (catch phrase warning) "moving in God's will" when you act like that.
The question then beckons that if you are doing God's will, why wouldn't it get you into heaven? My response to that question is how much is enough? When do you know that you've helped enough old ladies cross the street, given enough to World Vision etc to assure your entrance. Does a single good act cover a multitude of bad ones? That's the dilemma with trying to base your acceptance from God upon your actions.
Now, this then leads us to the fundemental question which needs to be answered. Are humans all born with a burden of sin? If you believe not, then doing as mentioned would be enough. If you believe we are, then there needs to be some way to be rid of those. This is the point where the sacrifice comes in. I won't get all preachy, but I've tried to answer your questions with the answers that have come through my experience. If you want me to clarify anything or feel I haven't answered your questions, shoot. I'm no guru, I just know what I believe and how I've gotten to that point. Happy to provide an insiders point of view.

Grant

Cave Dweller

14-03-2005, 12:45 PM

Don't know how many times I've rewritten this response - hopefully I've worded it well enough.

The concept of doing right by others, charity etc as you've lined out is all great stuff. A Christian would believe that you are (catch phrase warning) "moving in God's will" when you act like that.
The question then beckons that if you are doing God's will, why wouldn't it get you into heaven? My response to that question is how much is enough? When do you know that you've helped enough old ladies cross the street, given enough to World Vision etc to assure your entrance. Does a single good act cover a multitude of bad ones? That's the dilemma with trying to base your acceptance from God upon your actions.
Now, this then leads us to the fundemental question which needs to be answered. Are humans all born with a burden of sin? If you believe not, then doing as mentioned would be enough. If you believe we are, then there needs to be some way to be rid of those. This is the point where the sacrifice comes in. I won't get all preachy, but I've tried to answer your questions with the answers that have come through my experience. If you want me to clarify anything or feel I haven't answered your questions, shoot. I'm no guru, I just know what I believe and how I've gotten to that point. Happy to provide an insiders point of view.

Grant

Well worded.

What do you mean by a bourden of sin?

Are you saying that you have to be part of an organised relegion to get into heaven, and that by having a personal relationship with your creator, not dictated by a church, bible or anyones else, is not enough to get into heaven?

So you are saying that someone like Johnny will not get into heaven regardless of how good he has been, but someone like, George Bush for example, will get into heaven because he is a christian and all he needs to do is repent his sins (like killing thousands of innocent people for oil etc etc) and all is forgiven? How can that be? What kind of God are you worshipping if that is the case?

orchie

14-03-2005, 12:51 PM

Definitely not... by burden of sin I was saying is man born blameless, or is he born with an inherent desire/nature to sin. Are we born guilty or innocent?

IMO George Bush is a tool and if he really is a Christian should never have told anyone he was... it's giving us a worse name than we already have.

Grant

orchie

14-03-2005, 12:55 PM

Also must comment that if he can forgive GWB then he's a pretty awesome God ;)

Grant

Cave Dweller

14-03-2005, 01:07 PM

Also must comment that if he can forgive GWB then he's a pretty awesome God ;)

Grant

Hahah, good come back :)

Captain Blake

21-03-2005, 06:22 PM

i wonder what they'd think of rick music after they heard "heresy" by "nine inch nails"

but seriously that site is just stupid, this is why im not religious in any way

a good quote from dogma "beliefs cause wars" you have to have a "good" understanding.

cheers

FR Drew

21-03-2005, 08:46 PM

i wonder what they'd think of rock music after they heard "heresy" by "nine inch nails"

Aww cripes, there's any number of songs that would have got them riled I think it's "Scarecrow" by Ministry, or of course "Leper Messiah" by Metallica (less deliberately offensive and more blatantly against profiteering by TV evangelists).

Sheesh, if you want to start looking at music to get church folks riled up there's a huge vein to mine. "Story of Isaac" by Leonard Cohen, etc etc etc, let alone any of the ream of young boy/young girl doing what feels good for young boys and girls type songs.

Corrupting our youf I say!

The more I discuss religion with people of any faith/denomination, the more I get the feeling that most use their faith in order to do good and better the lives of others. It always seems to be the more fanatical, charismatic, evangelist or fundamentalist end of the spectrum that spoil the doing of good by "poisoning the well". As soon as the church gets involved in power and control in any way, like all power, it corrupts.

Pity that, the message seems to be a worthy one.

I don't think I've ever been more scared than I was at a charismatic chrisitian convention once. Like a late 1930's Nazi party rally. Really scary mob mentality shit going on.

Hmm, been drinking, won't post more, always gets messy.

Dru

ajay

22-03-2005, 06:10 PM

Also must comment that if he can forgive GWB then he's a pretty awesome God ;)

Grant

But.... if he can forgive GWB for the terror he has brought on the world, but a good, law abiding citizen, who has no beef with anyone wont get a look in....?? IMO if that is how your 'God' judges people, then he aint awsome in any way, shape or form...

ajay

22-03-2005, 06:13 PM

As soon as the church gets involved in power and control in any way, like all power, it corrupts.

Dru

Which is why the Catholics should be ASHAMED of themselves... the Pope - what a joke - that goes against everything religeon stands for.

FR Drew

22-03-2005, 06:59 PM

Which is why the Catholics should be ASHAMED of themselves... the Pope - what a joke - that goes against everything religeon stands for.

And the Baptists, and the Mormons, and the Right to Lifers, and the Hindus, and the Seikhs, and the Sunis, and the Sheites (sp?), and the...

IIRC, even the Buddhists have had a shot at persecuting others from time to time, now if that don't prove that any ( I saaay baw, aaaaaaneeeeee) (sorry, bad foghorn leghorn gag) religion can get itself in a bind then nothing does.

BAH! RELIGION! If it weren't for all the religious folks, religion would save us all.

Like in Yes Prime Minister. "Hospitals would work perfectly if they didn't have to deal with patients."

donthucktoflat

22-03-2005, 07:10 PM

fuckin hell, that comic is a joke isn't it? there are some high school kids spurting a load of religious "rightous" (sp?) crap in every sentence. nobody is like that.. i mean come on..

aahh well, good for a laugh

FR Drew

22-03-2005, 07:19 PM

Trust me, there are folks out there who are EXACTLY like that. No exaggeration.

orchie

22-03-2005, 07:51 PM

But.... if he can forgive GWB for the terror he has brought on the world, but a good, law abiding citizen, who has no beef with anyone wont get a look in....?? IMO if that is how your 'God' judges people, then he aint awsome in any way, shape or form...

Man, take that comment in the spirit it was intended... light hearted.
Forgiveness can only be given if it's asked for at any rate.

Grant

orchie

22-03-2005, 07:52 PM

Trust me, there are folks out there who are EXACTLY like that. No exaggeration.

As an insider, I can tell you he's right. We're not all like that though - some of us even act a little normal ;)

Grant

ajay

22-03-2005, 08:21 PM

Man, take that comment in the spirit it was intended... light hearted.
Forgiveness can only be given if it's asked for at any rate.

Grant

I wasnt taking it the wrong way, just elaborating...

sure forgiveness can only be given if its asked, and blah blah, blah.... but having been immersed in religion my whole life, many flaws have begun to arise imo...

johnny

22-03-2005, 09:03 PM

So we may be all born with a burden of sin and yet Forgiveness can only be given if it's asked for at any rate. Seems like we've been born without our permission into an ultimatum......?

No I think you misunderstood my earlier question. If some one chooses not to believe in God but still lives with Christian values simply because he believes in being good unto others, will he be punished with fire and brimstone for not praising God or asking for forgiveness? I ask this question for as a child one of my biggest questions was "what about the people who've never even heard of God and aren't bad people, won't they go to hell for not praying"? No one at my church (Sunday school) gave me a straight answer and I knew it. So all the impracticalities and illogical contridictions kept occuring to me and they still do. The biggest one is how can he let us suffer like this?

I understand the futility of arguing spirituality with logic and the main points of do unto others is the way I want to live, but all the nuances and rules and clauses and stories and threats and mystery and cliche and circular argument and specific acts and consequences all seem wrong to me. I think we added all that stuff for our own reasons.

Every time I debate theology/religion/faith with people it always ends up with them saying "I don't have all the answers......" yet they still believe. This leads me to think that

NOT TWO SINGLE PEOPLE WHO'VE EVER LIVED HAVE GRASPED THE ONE UNIQUE AND PECULIAR BELIEF IN GOD AND HOW WE RELATE TO IT.

This is meaningful in the respect that it completely remodels modern religions from Judaism to Islam. Everyone has their own take, I know that many Anglican priests will publically say that the immaculate conception is biblical poetic lisence. So if we do away with all the dogma and prose of the bible I think we are in end left with what I wish to be. I wish to be some one who does unto others as I would have done unto me........I'm not into auto-erotoasphyxiosis or sadomasochism!

I feel that if the ultimatums given to us in the bible are true, God is a vengeful narcisistic King of nothing and my beliefs of relieving suffering where you can is far higher and mightier than the mirror of his own faults that he has created for us to grovel from.

It's funny, all the punishment and guilt seem such earthly concepts. But do unto others is a higher ideal that still tends to escape us.

ajay

22-03-2005, 09:22 PM

So we may be and yet Seems like we've been born without our permission into an ultimatum......?

No I think you misunderstood my earlier question. If some one chooses not to believe in God but still lives with Christian values simply because he believes in being good unto others, will he be punished with fire and brimstone for not praising God or asking for forgiveness? I ask this question for as a child one of my biggest questions was "what about the people who've never even heard of God and aren't bad people, won't they go to hell for not praying"? No one at my church (Sunday school) gave me a straight answer and I knew it. So all the impracticalities and illogical contridictions kept occuring to me and they still do. The biggest one is how can he let us suffer like this?

I understand the futility of arguing spirituality with logic and the main points of do unto others is the way I want to live, but all the nuances and rules and clauses and stories and threats and mystery and cliche and circular argument and specific acts and consequences all seem wrong to me. I think we added all that stuff for our own reasons.

Every time I debate theology/religion/faith with people it always ends up with them saying "I don't have all the answers......" yet they still believe. This leads me to think that

NOT TWO SINGLE PEOPLE WHO'VE EVER LIVED HAVE GRASPED THE ONE UNIQUE AND PECULIAR BELIEF IN GOD AND HOW WE RELATE TO IT.

This is meaningful in the respect that it completely remodels modern religions from Judaism to Islam. Everyone has their own take, I know that many Anglican priests will publically say that the immaculate conception is biblical poetic lisence. So if we do away with all the dogma and prose of the bible I think we are in end left with what I wish to be. I wish to be some one who does unto others as I would have done unto me........I'm not into auto-erotoasphyxiosis or sadomasochism!

I feel that if the ultimatums given to us in the bible are true, God is a vengeful narcisistic King of nothing and my beliefs of relieving suffering where you can is far higher and mightier than the mirror of his own faults that he has created for us to grovel from.

It's funny, all the punishment and guilt seem such earthly concepts. But do unto others is a higher ideal that still tends to escape us.

the one single post that i absolutley agree with 100%

Good on ya Johnny for having the vocab to express 'my' view aswell ;)

Tomas

22-03-2005, 09:32 PM

Ive been following this a fair bit, so i feel i should atleast make a contribution, it will probably be ignored, but hey... Nothing lost.

I think a lot of people read to far in the past, or read to deep. I always believed that the whole organised religion was shit, until a recent event made me think differently. On having a good D&M with someone about a recently deceast friend, i asked the question "is there any way to stop it hurting so much?", her reponse was "have faith in god and it will". Now organised religion seemed to be complete shit to me, but it was completely different to her. Even if religion is complete shit to some people, to others it gives them something to believe in. In my opinion, if this organised religion allowed this person to share the hurt somewhat, and believe that with the help of god, the pain of losing someone close to them can be signifigantly reduced, then its only doing a good thing?

In short, i rambeled seriously then. I believe if religion can help people, wether its real or not, then its a good thing and serves some purpose.

toodles

23-03-2005, 06:42 AM

Ok so driving home yesterday I had a thought. (Yes one single thought - I don't have many so this was something special).

One thing that really gets to me is the church's continual attempts to interfere with the lives of those outside of their faith. Constant petitioning of the government to ban, restrict, outlaw or criminalise drugs, porn, violent video games, abortions, homosexual marriage, pagan religions, anti-church publications, music and television shows. Ok fair enough you say - they've always been self-righteous f*ckwits, we expected that. But here's my point - isn't one of the basic premises of Christian faith God's gift of free will and choice to humans. That's right, free will to make our own decisions and choose the path we want? Are they saying God made a mistake? That maybe he gave us a bit too much free will? Because obviously they think we can't be trusted to decide that underage donkey bondage p0rn is not just wrong, it's broken wrong (the worst kind of wrong). It seems the church thinks we're all a bunch of wide-eyed naive sheep who will flock like insects to the bug-zapper unless steered away by the iron clad hand of the law.

orchie

23-03-2005, 07:28 AM

So we may be and yet Seems like we've been born without our permission into an ultimatum......?

snip

It's funny, all the punishment and guilt seem such earthly concepts. But do unto others is a higher ideal that still tends to escape us.

Just cut this for sake of page size, not to remove any content.
I can't disagree with much that you've said - I can only reiterate what I was saying before about whether doing good cancels out the bad stuff we do.
I don't know what happens to those people who've never heard. That's one of the questions that I would love to know the answer to as well.
Ultimately, we can discuss this till the cows come home, I respect your views and I'm not going to label you as a no good sinner who needs to repent. I can sympathise with a lot of what you're saying.

In the end though, my relationship with my God is about faith. Not knowing or understanding, but faith. Faith (for me) means trusting even if I don't understand why etc. I've had some encounters with a higher power, experiences that I can't deny. I've assumed it's God. Maybe I'm wrong. But hey, that's where I'm at.

I'll clarify anything I've said so far, or respond to any stuff I've missed, but I don't really want to take this much farther as it will become an argument which no-one can win.

Props to you for asking rational questions ;)

Grant