road etiquette [Archive] - FARKIN.NET Forums

m_g

09-05-2005, 12:14 PM

Howdy folks,

Going on from the thread regarding "allegedly" drunk lawyers...A few ques..

1. Does a driver have the right to get pissed if we cut through traffic at a red light and start in front of them when lights turn green? This seems to always get a reaction from drivers, who either lean on their horn, or floor it, driving as close to you as they can...

2. Dicky said in the last post to ride on the footpath if the road is too dangerous (or slow), but does anyone else ride on the footpath...I see guys doing it in the morning, and I do occassionally, but it scares the shit out of me...I know Id rather be on the road

Cheers

tanlicouz

09-05-2005, 12:34 PM

About number 2 I aggree.
I would rather ride on road, firsty because there arent any pedestrians.... They cant hear u coming and i would rather hit a car then a person, thats just me.

and secondly, streets... every time I get to a street i have to slow down or stop because cars cant see you if they are pulling out. I tend to stick to the road, unless there is a jam and i cant squeeze through the cars.

All in all, most drivers arent taught the rules that have regard to cyclist. Im saying this because I wasnt and i got my liscence with flying colors. Etiquete isnt as much important on the road, its more common sence and the state government push to educate drivers. But don't expect that to happen, they would rather spend millions of dollars on their election advertising campaign. :mad:

schmackster

09-05-2005, 12:39 PM

I ride to work on some days and drive on others and my general rule is that you never ride to the front of the line of traffic at a set of lights. If they have overtaken you then they have every right to get pissed at you if they have to do it all over again, and again, and again. If you are on a motorbike then it is a different story because you have the power to accelerate.

When I hit heavy traffic I hop the footpath (as I don't ride a bike to sit in the traffic and suck in the fumes) but then generally stay on footpath until either I get to work or get off the main road. Going on and off the footpath is another sure way to piss off drivers that are already unhappy about sitting in a traffic jam. Just be careful and ride slowly on the footpath as you can do a lot of damage to an old lady who steps out from her driveway and keep an eye out for the blue and whites.

The road is for everyone to share and I have no interest in pissing people off and risking my safety just so that I can get to work 1 minute earlier.

That's my 2 cents worth.

scblack

09-05-2005, 12:46 PM

About Number 1 - you are breaking the law actually, so that is no good for cyclists (or yourself). And you are essentially "pushing in" in front of drivers, so I would say that yes, they have a right to be pissed off. Cyclists are comparatively slow, and it will frustrate drivers, making it more dangerous for you, the cyclist.

Stick to the road rules if you are in traffic.

Number 2 - I used to commute to work once a week from Dee Why to Circular Quay, and I was on the footpath basically all the way. I was not going to risk my life in peak hour traffic. BUT I was very careful of pedestrians, and driveways etc. Outside peak hour I may use the road, but I'll put my safety first.

In heavy peak hour traffic I personally think it is foolhardy to exercise your right to cycle on the roads - especially main roads. People are distracted, getting to or from work, pissed off by delays, and to put yourself on the road when people may not be fully alert, is asking for problems. Just remember, not matter how wrong the motorist is, you will be the one in hospital.

Take care of yourself.

Techno Destructo

09-05-2005, 12:49 PM

1. Does a driver have the right to get pissed if we cut through traffic at a red light and start in front of them when lights turn green? This seems to always get a reaction from drivers, who either lean on their horn, or floor it, driving as close to you as they can...

Yes, they do. Because you don't have the right to cut in front of him/her. (I'm not saying that you shouldn't do this. I do it all the time. I'm just saying we can't get self-rightous about it) But the ire of the average motorist you just cut to the front of at the traffic lights is also proportional to the amount you slow this person down when the lights turn green. In other words, if you're going to do it, try to get as far in front of that motorist as possible, ASAP. And you better be cranking. Even if you aren't going super fast, look like you're working your ass off, pedalling like a madman, it'll lessen the animosity the driver will have for you.

If you pull in front of the motorist at the lights, then just cruise along at 30km/h in front of them, then, yeah... they're pretty justified for getting pissed off at you. If you're going to pedal that slow, you better obey EVERY single road rule you can, because you're going to have to be ready to defend your right to ride at your comfortable pace, slowing down traffic behind you. And get ready for a bitch-fight with motorists....:rolleyes:

That said, I think I'm generally pretty good about riding at the same speed or faster than the flow of traffic. The negative reactions of motorists when commuting make for a good incentive to become as strong, fast and aggressive as a rider as possible!!!

2. Dicky said in the last post to ride on the footpath if the road is too dangerous (or slow), but does anyone else ride on the footpath...I see guys doing it in the morning, and I do occassionally, but it scares the shit out of me...I know Id rather be on the road

Only when I absolutely have to. The road is WAY faster, IMO much safer (you don't get surprised by motorists as often as you do with pedestrians), it's much smoother and more flowy (no curbs to deal with all the time), and it helps the cyclist cause to look like we are legitimate road users as much as possible. The more cyclists ride on sidewalks, the more we're going to get idiots yelling at us from their cars for us to get off the road.
:mad:

scblack

09-05-2005, 01:01 PM

Only when I absolutely have to. The road is WAY faster, IMO much safer (you don't get surprised by motorists as often as you do with pedestrians), it's much smoother and more flowy (no curbs to deal with all the time), and it helps the cyclist cause to look like we are legitimate road users as much as possible. The more cyclists ride on sidewalks, the more we're going to get idiots yelling at us from their cars for us to get off the road.
:mad:

I largely agree with you there Techno - the road is quicker, I was costing myself time on the footpath (but I was largely riding a DH bike, so my speed was not good roadwise anyway). But I put my safety first, and stuck mostly on the footpath. I was more interested in the fitness aspect than in solely speed to work.

m_g

09-05-2005, 01:05 PM

Yes, they do. Because you don't have the right to cut in front of him/her. (I'm not saying that you shouldn't do this. I do it all the time. I'm just saying we can't get self-rightous about it)

yeah, thats fair enough...I just wasnt sure:
a) whether it was legal
b) whether it was just assumed cyclists would do it coz we can!!

see ya

Gonzo

09-05-2005, 01:22 PM

I never ride on the footpath when I'm riding to uni, it is just too slow. You have the same right to get to uni on time as the driver does to get wherever he/she is going on time.

It is important to make sure you are going fast when riding on the road. It is easier to change lanes and manouver when you are keeping up with traffic.

With regards to riding to the front of the queue at lights i think it depends on the road ahead. If it is a wide open road up ahead then i wouldn't do it cos the cars are just giong to breeze past you, however if you are riding in or near the city where the traffic is much slower than usually and it is possible to ride faster than the traffic then I always do it. Also if you know that you can cross on the red then you can get enough of a jump on the traffic to make it worthwhile and so I will also do it then.

Carlin

09-05-2005, 01:25 PM

I dissagree with the peakhour traffic thing being more dangerous. Generally cars are going slower, and the difference in speeds is far less. I feel safer with a bunch of cars that average 20km and hour than a bunch that average 50. That being said, I would not ride in peak hour traffic on a bike with full width DH bars either ;)

As for Number 1, I see it this way: The slower I go the more I hold up traffic, riding to the front of the que and jumping red lights makes me faster, and I hold up drivers less. I agree with TD, I'm not self righteous about it, but I have commuted both ways and I know which one "flows" better. I also only hog a whole lane when I am at traffic speed or in a few black spots.

Number 2: depends on the situation Trials bike = footpath, Commuter = road. Also i have a set of barends in between my gears and my grips, running inot a pedestrian would not be pretty.

Edit: Freudian typo

Laurie

09-05-2005, 01:31 PM

Bugger riding on the footpaths....you'll be there all day dodging cars parked out on there, pedestrians, stray dogs and cars pulling out that just pull out suddenly and will take you out unless you are riding as slow as a granny. The footpaths are usually pretty bad anyway and have glass and crap all over them from some inconsiderate people.

scblack

09-05-2005, 01:34 PM

I dissagree with the peakhour traffic thing being more dangerous. Generally cars are going slower, and the difference in speeds is far less. I feel safer with a bunch of cars that average 20km and hour than a bunch that average 50. That being said, I would not ride in peak hour traffic on a bike with full width DH bars either ;)

It depends on where you precisely are I suppose - my trip was along Pittwater Road and Military Road, and even during peak hour on those roads, speeds can rise fast enough to be bloody dangerous for a bike as far as I'm concerned. And with the T3's and bus lanes, speeds are different in different lanes, which increases danger.

Techno Destructo

09-05-2005, 02:30 PM

A good rule to go by is:

The slower you're going in regards to the traffic, the further to the left you should be riding.

Go the same speed or faster than traffic? Rip it up! Ride in the middle of the lane, or even the passing lane!

Going a little slower than traffic? Definitely don't be in the passing lane, and maybe ride on the outer left hand side of the lane to let impatient people by.

Going way slower than traffic? Like up a long steep hill? Or on a freeway? You should either be in a dedicated bike lane (LOL! What a dream!), on the shoulder, possibly on the sidewalk, or the best would be on an adjacent street that will get you to the same destination, but has none of the traffic! As in, so far left you're not even on the same road with all the traffic!

A good case in point is the Spit Bridge hill. When going down that hill, I'm passing cars, and maybe even getting photos from the speed cameras (that would be cool! :cool: ), but I would never think of riding up the main road back up the other side! Unless of course, traffic JUST got stopped by the raising bridge, and I had that precious 5 minutes of three empty lanes! Otherwise, I'm riding up either of the side streets... Parriwi and... that other one that dumps out in Seaforth....

I actually think it's really irresponsible for people to cycle up the main road from the Spit when there's tons of traffic and there's far better options. It doesn't win us cyclists any points, and it's a little dangerous too.

Carlin

09-05-2005, 03:49 PM

I actually think it's really irresponsible for people to cycle up the main road from the Spit when there's tons of traffic and there's far better options. It doesn't win us cyclists any points, and it's a little dangerous too.

I think some people just don't know. I've seen someone riding in the traffic lanes on the Harbour bridge with no helmet, thongs and the shopping hanging in a singlet bag of the handlebars :eek: I shit you not.

Hex515

09-05-2005, 04:37 PM

Riding up between cars at traffic lights and cutting in front of cars is STUPID, espicially because cyclist don't accelerate/go as quick as traffic. This is why people get annoyed at cyclists and why they are so against sharing roads with them.

In my opinion it is ok to ride in a lane on the road when you are going the same speed as traffic and not holding it up. Apart from that ride on the shoulder or footpath. And if riding on the footpath give way to others.

demo man

09-05-2005, 04:53 PM

CRS01

09-05-2005, 05:17 PM

point 2....

Riding the pavement is dangerous, mainly for everyone else, but having said that iv slammed a car leaving a driveway in the wet (ie, poor braking and at a fair pace) and its not somthing i care to repeat.

I may be wrong, but isnt it against the law to ride on the footpath (within reason, i mean your not going to force a 5 year old to brave the traffic)? Addmitedly i do stray on to the footpath from time to time to avoid entering a lane when parked cars are ahead, but its calculated and if the cars are outside a deli or somthing i stick to the roads....hitting a pedestrian would be terrible and a little kid or old lady could be seriously hurt. Also 9 times out of ten the traffic isnt going that much faster thay you are so merging to avoid roadside obsticals is better, easyer, and faster than slowing down to ride the path.

point 1..

all comes down to common sence and experience - if you dont have experience use common sence y'know, all intersections are slightly different. be aware of your surroundings and make calculated decisions and you cant go wrong. oh yeah and theres always going to some moron whos having a bad day venting his fustration anyway possible.....if your doing the right thing he/she is clearly a dick, if your not then admit it and avoid the situation in the future. you cant make other road users responsible for your saftey by being ignorent or arrogent. I guess its a two-way street.

Mahoney_007

09-05-2005, 05:23 PM

donthucktoflat

09-05-2005, 05:35 PM

man, i love Canberra!

on almost all main roads there are descent (comparitivly) sized bike shoulders, and there is a spider-web of bike paths all over the city, from norths to south and east to west. it's a great city to ride in, both commuting wise and mtbing wise.

hehe, i feel so bad for you guys!
Sam
i was just about to bring that up! canberra is awesome for riding in/around, we even have some of our bike lanes painted GREEN when the road has a fork in it so we can get across without cars hitting us and letting them know there may be cyclists. aah, the luxuries of a city that is pro-mtb!

Gonzo

09-05-2005, 07:52 PM

Yes I do get pissed, stay outta the way over there on the left. (Unless your gonna take off like shit off a stick) which I have seen.

Also its not my fault some of you seem to WANT to ride 2 or even 3 guys wide and take up half a car lane whilst your riding up a hill at 20 and the rest of us are allowed to do 70. WTF is with that people? Whats wrong with single file?

You don't ride single file because then some dickhead in a car will try and sneak past you in your lane. By riding two abreast it forces any car drivers to completely change lanes thus avoiding any close calls, it is also very hard to talk to someone who is riding behind you.

Techno Destructo

09-05-2005, 08:27 PM

cam-o

09-05-2005, 09:09 PM

i was just about to bring that up! canberra is awesome for riding in/around, we even have some of our bike lanes painted GREEN when the road has a fork in it so we can get across without cars hitting us and letting them know there may be cyclists. aah, the luxuries of a city that is pro-mtb!
Yeah but there are spots in Canberra where it is getting so 'bike friendly' it is just plain silly. My drive to work is along William Slim drive, which carries a fair bit of traffic for a single lane and in the mornings is very congested. Right next to this road is a dedicated bike track in awesome condition, I've ridden it many times and it is a great cycle path. A few months ago the road crews come in and widen the road, not for extra lanes, but for a cycle lane. In order to use this new 'cycle lane' you have to cross 4 very busy intersections. At these intersections (roundabouts) the bike lanes disappear, forcing you into the traffic at it's most dangerous point! In order to use the existing bike path that is less than 15 metres away you never cross the road as there are underpasses all the way. So the existing bike path is faster, safer and keeps cars and bikes separate. How the hell is the new bike lane necessary? Now on my way to work I see 10 year old kids on scooters within centimetres of the cars, where they used to be 10 metres away in perfect safety. :mad:

09-05-2005, 09:29 PM

Is changing lanes not an option?

It isn't always (either 2 lane road, or parked cars in one lane [that one lane commonly being a so-called "bicycle lane"] are pretty common, at least near where I live), and even when it is, it's often pretty disruptive to the traffic flow because it's a bottleneck.

m_g: I have also found that being overly courteous to motorists (waving them past, or even just a smile as you go by, or getting off the road completely to allow a surge of traffic through for 20 seconds) does wonders to how motorists treat you (and I don't mean the ones who you're directly interacting with); people see someone making an effort not to get in their way, and generally they're appreciative of it (same goes if you're in a car, but there is a bit of "us and them" stigmatism from both the motorist and cyclist mentalities, so IMO it has a bit more pronounced effect from a cyclist). Even if you inconvenience yourself in some minor way just so that you don't do it to someone else (such as not pulling in front of traffic at the lights), it does seem to help. Maybe it's just karma or something, I dunno.

Daver

09-05-2005, 09:49 PM

man, i love Canberra!

on almost all main roads there are descent (comparitivly) sized bike shoulders, and there is a spider-web of bike paths all over the city, from norths to south and east to west. it's a great city to ride in, both commuting wise and mtbing wise.

hehe, i feel so bad for you guys!
Sam

On a joking level i'd laugh at the notion of Canberra, but in relation to this it makes me jealous. I guess maybe it was designed that way though?

tanlicouz

09-05-2005, 11:10 PM

Have you driven and seen cyclists hugging the outside line of the bike lane??? :mad:

When I drive and i absolutely hate it when cyclists stick to the outside of the bycicle lane. I mean just be moving in about half a metre makes it easier for cars to overtake AND is much safer for yourself. Id say no matter what, stick to the shoulder of the curb or the inside of the bike lane as much as you can, unless you see up ahead that you need to swap lanes, ie an oversized truck that takes up the bike lane.
I start to move to the outside, and i make eye contact with the car behind me to let them know im there and will merge into there lane. It has always worked for me and they have shown respect by giving me the space that i need. Plus when i do know i will be sliding in front of cars, i fully crank it up to get as fast as i can in order not to slow traffic. Common sence really.

I think at peak hour riding bike is fun :) lets you dodge traffic and perhaps, the people in the cars envy you. :D

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W2ttsy

09-05-2005, 11:48 PM

when in traffic at the lights, ive found its always best to watch the lights that are against you.. ie you are approaching a 4 way intersection on a northbound lane.. watch the lights at the east and west and anticipate the change to your lane.. that way you can be out of the blocks before the motorists have even realised its their chance to go.. this way you are halfway accross the intersection before they have left the line...

also, for those who ride clipped in (i included) do the motorists a favour and clip out.. no one likes it when a rider holds on to something, then has to regain balance and cant move forward cos they are in a shit pedal rotation.. just prepare yourself for when its time to move...

as for footpaths.. i only use them when its necessary, or i dont feel safe in the traffic. otherwise its all road..

also, not many motorists (in tassie anyway) feel like challenging someone on a downhill bike. especially when you sit higher than they do...

W2ttsy

chips_with_everything

10-05-2005, 06:39 AM

This thread is a worry. The commonsense aspect is great, but several posts are by cyclists who obviously don't know some of the rules.

You can download them from http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au

I urge you to do that, but also apply the commonsense and courtesy shown in the discussion as well.

For example:
1) Cyclists ARE permitted to pass lines of traffic on the left, and take a place at the front. Rule 141.
2) It is ILLEGAL for drivers to pass bicycles (or any other vehicles) on a multi lane road unless they have entirely changed lane (the rule says they have to be between the white lines). Rule 146.

Clearly exploiting the rules to gain advantage thus annoying people is dumb. Legal but silly. Passing lines of traffic is often hazardous too. I'll do it if the cars should not be in the lane (like it's a line of single occupant vehicles in a T3 on Epping Road); or if staying in line means I'll miss the phase of the lights; or if they have cut me off to get in front. Otherwise I'll just wait in line with everyone else. Go with the flow!

On the other hand you DO often need to take an entire lane by riding in the middle it, for instance approaching pinches such as single lane roundabouts and in locations where you need to be seen. Take the lane way early (preferably in a handy big gap, but signal unambiguously regardless), and get the hell over as soon as you can after so cars can pass you once the obstruction has been passed. If the lane is narrow (as in not wide enough for you and a car) then ride in the middle of it, certainly no further left than where the left wheel of a car would be.

Being hard over on the left is dangerous approaching intersections because a lot of drivers only look down the lane, they ignore anyone at the side of the road and they WILL drive out in front of you. Not to mention trouble with people emerging from driveways, opening doors and so on. For the same reasons occupying the extreme left of a bicycle lane is usually dangerous.

While riding footpaths is illegal in some states I reckon it's acceptable, as long as the speed is very low. Like 10km/h or less.

Please please please read the rules very carefully before flaming me. There's also a lot of good oil on the net regarding safe positioning, passing and the like.

apsilon

10-05-2005, 07:39 AM

m_g

10-05-2005, 07:51 AM

Only problem with that line of thought is that many motorists do the same thing (I know I do) and you're also opening yourself up to being collected by someone running the light.

I agree...After being wiped out an an intersection (in my car) by a driver running the red, Im in no rush to jump the lights on my bike :eek:

chips_with_everything

10-05-2005, 08:55 AM

But yes I think starting early is a good plan as long as you don't actually enter the intersection on red and you are checking for people running the red all around you as well.

Something else to remember is getting across a big intersection on a bike before someone else gets a green can be tricky, because the yellow phase may not be long enough. It's a common traffic engineering stuffup, particularly if you are turning right and have had to stop on the green. These intersections are candidates for using a hook turn instead. Now that manoeuvre really can tick drivers off, but if it is safer for you...

Techno Destructo

10-05-2005, 09:17 AM

1) Cyclists ARE permitted to pass lines of traffic on the left, and take a place at the front. Rule 141.
2) It is ILLEGAL for drivers to pass bicycles (or any other vehicles) on a multi lane road unless they have entirely changed lane (the rule says they have to be between the white lines). Rule 146.

Wow. Really? I actually didn't know that! Those rules sound like a good reason to bring a copy of the road rules with you, because if a lot of people don't realize that we are legally allowed to be on the road, I doubt if ANY motorist will know those previous two rules... They'll try to call bullshit on you for sure if you tell them about those rules!

On the other hand you DO often need to take an entire lane by riding in the middle it, for instance approaching pinches such as single lane roundabouts and in locations where you need to be seen. Take the lane way early (preferably in a handy big gap, but signal unambiguously regardless), and get the hell over as soon as you can after so cars can pass you once the obstruction has been passed. If the lane is narrow (as in not wide enough for you and a car) then ride in the middle of it, certainly no further left than where the left wheel of a car would be.

Being hard over on the left is dangerous approaching intersections because a lot of drivers only look down the lane, they ignore anyone at the side of the road and they WILL drive out in front of you. Not to mention trouble with people emerging from driveways, opening doors and so on. For the same reasons occupying the extreme left of a bicycle lane is usually dangerous.

I agree with that. Although I said the speed at which you're going at should dictate how far to your left you should ride, it does create those problems CWE mentioned. Staying in the middle of the lane *usually* prevent motorists from buzzing your tower by blowing by centimeters away from you, because they usually change lanes to pass you. However, it also raises the ire of a lot of ignorant motorists who get pissed off at you, and buzz your tower on purpose, usually honking and yelling at you at the same time.

Another huge problem with riding hard left is that if you're approaching a left hand turn, and you're almost riding in the gutter, it's very likely that a motorist turning left will turn right in front of you - like they don't see you or something. Maybe they think you're turning left as well? :confused:
This has happened to me more times than I care to remember... a few times making contact! At some particularly notorious corners, as I'm approaching it, I look over my right shoulder to make sure it's clear, move into the middle or outside right of the lane, and ride past that left hand turnoff. I've never had a problem since adopting that technique.

If you give some motorists an inch, they'll take a mile, and possibly take you out at the same time.

So yeah, there's definitely strong arguments for taking that lane....