Overdue recall notice

[toodles]

Love it...

[scblack]

Don't like the Toyota's much do you?

[toodles]

Nah actually I love Toyotas. Just hate seeing immaculate 4WDs sitting outside schools.

[Dicky]

cough*Mosman*cough

so cynical, yet so true...

[johnny]

Man, I cannot believe how this dislike for the 4WD has almost become a social movement!

I don't care about them either way, but that post was rather humourous! :D

[Dumbellina]

That was too funny. Could have been a Prado, Jeep Cheroke, Pajero, Musso, Discovery...etc

[scblack]

Man, I cannot believe how this dislike for the 4WD has almost become a social movement!

I don't understand it either.

I own a mid size 4WD - Ford Escape, and it actually does go and get dirty, which in some eyes, gives it and my ownership of that 4WD "credibility".

As far as I'm concerned stiff shit if it does not go off road. It's a perfectly legitimate vehicle for our roads. Uses the same fuel as a typical V8, ANY vehicle with a bullbar will maim pedestrians, blah blah blah...

It actually does not worry me one bit if people dislike 4Wd's but I don't really understand the dislike. :confused:



Not a go at you at all Toodles, I just don't get it.

[scottmeister]

Its a very broad hate...Most 4WDs might be clean during the week and dirty on weekends. We have a large 4WD, keep it spink and span during the week, then on weekends go up 4WD trails and bush, towing motorbikes and full of muddy gear in the back.

[toodles]

Not a go at you at all Toodles, I just don't get it.

Ha, fair call. Quite a few of my mates drive 4WDs and I'd like one myself. Just sick of the office ladies at work complaining how hard it is to park their tanks and how much it costs to run the thing in fuel when all they use it for is driving the kids to school and picking up the groceries.

They're great for bush bashing and whatnot but kinda overkill for a lot of people.

[johnny]

Ha, fair call. Quite a few of my mates drive 4WDs and I'd like one myself. Just sick of the office ladies at work complaining how hard it is to park their tanks and how much it costs to run the thing in fuel when all they use it for is driving the kids to school and picking up the groceries.

They're great for bush bashing and whatnot but kinda runoverandkill for a lot of people.
the bandwagon had a spare seat.......

[toodles]

the bandwagon had a spare seat.......

Did someone say witchhunt?!? Where's my pitchfork? Let's have a burnin'!

[at the drive in]

A couple of houses down in our street is a Kindergarten. drop of and pick up time is crazy females in 4wd's, vans and commodore wagons everywhere. The majority have 4wd's. i cringe when i see some of the parking jobs and i make sure i dont drive past when its is pick up or drop off time. Slightly off topic. My uncle is pretty high up at Ford, he was telling me that the ford territory was purely created to meet a specfic demegrapic in the market who wanted the 4wd to drive around town but wanted a wagon for the space and what not. That demographic being soccer mums.

[lotec]

A couple of houses down in our street is a Kindergarten. drop of and pick up time is crazy females in 4wd's, vans and commodore wagons everywhere. The majority have 4wd's. i cringe when i see some of the parking jobs and i make sure i dont drive past when its is pick up or drop off time. Slightly off topic. My uncle is pretty high up at Ford, he was telling me that the ford territory was purely created to meet a specfic demegrapic in the market who wanted the 4wd to drive around town but wanted a wagon for the space and what not. That demographic being soccer mums.
no shit? really... who woulda thought

sad fact is most 4wds these days are designed specifically for that

[fatkat]

Unfortunately i see it all the time. I go to Killara high (school on the northshore, ie lots of soccer mums) and i see porsche 4x4s, X5's, discos, lexus landcruisers, stocko chocko pajeros and a bunch of other city 4x4s. Ive seen yr7s almost being run over because the mums cant see over the steeringwheel, ie cant see where the bonnet ends. Its really overkill for what they're used for. I personally love 4x4s, and am planning on getting a dualcab hilux 4x4, because i want to be able to put my bike in the back, and also because i actually will go bush (Lost city service trail anyone?) I'm just against small females driving large four-wheel-drives.

Want space? Stationwagon. Got kids? People mover. Less than 4ft tall? Smart Car.

[Elbo]

personally i hate seeing people on downhill bikes riding around town (with full faces) and therefore i hate it how people buy a 4WD to drive around town in. When i save up enough i want to get an old landcruiser or a hilux, so i can put my bike in the back and go bush, not drive around town with doof doof music.
Have a look at this, i couldn't believe it when someone brought out spray on mud for city 4WD owners.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/science/story/0,12996,1506025,00.html

and an excerpt from the article "With spray-on mud, they can make it look like they've been off-road instead of just driving to the shops and back."

[apsilon]

As a 4WD owner myself (well former owner although I'm about to buy a Forester which'll handle all I need) I can understand the dislike of them in the city. A lot of the people that own them just can't drive them competently so they because a nuisance at best and a danger at worst. I've often been in a shopping centre car park and held up for 10min by someone trying to fit their landbarge into a spot and having to have a dozen goes at it and then being so tight that they open their door into the car next to them (another pet peev of mine).

People seem to think that a shopping expedition is the sort of expedition they were intended for.

[2 smooth 4 u]

that was funny

at my local shops after school there is usualy like 1 in 8 normal cars and the same like all around the local school and like none of them ever go off road

[Squidly Didly]

We should be cafeful how we 'generalise' 4x4 in the urban jungle. After all, we wouldn't want the general public to do this with every bicycle now would we...

[Rik]

There's a difference though... bicycles are great for city commuting, and their impact on other road users is very minimal.
Big cars on the other hand, especially ones with larger dimensions and poor dynamics, have a fair amount of impact on others. I don't believe 4wd-style cars are any way appropriate for purely suburban use, and their current popularity disgusts me.

Is there anything wrong with building and buying a decent sized people mover with the people/luggage capacity of a 4wd but without the stupid tyres, crap handling, higher fuel consumption, restricted visibility and general intimidation? Why is bigger always better?

Why does the argument "I feel safer in this" have any merit, when with everyone having that attitude we'll just end up with a pissing contest that results in F250s being used to get up to the shop for some milk and bread.

I don't like joining the 4wd lynch mob, but I have my reasons for disliking their use around the city. Personally, I'd like to see licensing reclassification, with categories based on vehicle size, weight and power. It'd be great to then need training specific to the dynamics of such vehicles before being licenced to use them. This extends past 4wd-style vehicles, from barge-like sedans through to high-power sports cars. It'd be nice if people were taught how to drive their vehicle, not just taught how to pass a crappy exam.

[Binaural]

Ah, 4WDs, how do I hate thee? Let me count the ways.

I dislike 4WDs in the city for a couple of reasons. Like Rik, I think they handle poorly and consume a lot more fuel than even a standard commodore V6 (I note SCBlack compared his to a V8 rather than a more "standard" Australian car). Plus, a lot of them use diesel which is cheap but stinks, produces significant air pollution and makes me choke when one drives past.

The thing that really pisses me off about them though is that their much-vaunted safety is a one-way street. Because they are much heavier, higher and rigidly constructed (due to the long travel suspension and long wheelbase) than conventional cars they do proportionally more damage in an accident. Simple physics – momentum = mass x velocity. Kinetic energy = ½ mass x velocity squared. All that energy has to go somewhere, and that’s into whatever you hit. In the USA there is a phenomenon known as submarining, where a passenger car is hit high by an SUV which actually goes over the crumple areas and cuts into the body of the car, usually killing the occupants. There’s some more of this sort of thing here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUV#Risk_to_other_drivers

Most 4WDs have bullbars. Bullbars render crumple zones ineffective and kill pedestrians and riders at a higher rate by hitting them high and knocking them under the car rather than rolling over it (this is by design; bullbar designers are trying to keep animals out of the windscreen). The centre of gravity of people is normally above the point of impact and being hit by a car will throw you over the bonnet and up the sloped front, diffusing the blow although probably breaking your legs in the process. Compare this to being hit at about sternum height and going under the car – not nice.

Of all the design features of common 4WDs this shouts "I don't care about the safety of others" the loudest. Pray tell, why do you need a bullbar in the city? Are there marauding bands of kangaroos on Kent St? Sure, you might need them in the country, but I lived in a country town for years and funnily enough every other type of car gets by fine without them there.

The other thing is this – normally you would expect that with 1.5 times as much metal the vehicles should cost roughly 1.5 times as much. Well, you guessed wrong. From http://www.walk.com.au/pedestriancouncil/Page.asp?PageID=411
“At present 4WDs - all of which are imported - are levied duty at 5 per cent, compared with other imports under: the $55,000 threshold at 15 per cent. A differential rate, when first applied in 1975, was initially justified on the ground that 4WDs were farm vehicles.” This really gives me the red arse; why should 4WDs of all things be subsidized? This means a $40k 4WD should really cost 44K, so not an insignificant amount. I for one don't think there is anything so noble about 4WDs that they deserve to be subsidized relative to cars.

I may be biased - I once got cleaned up by a 4WD. The guy driving pulled out into the middle of the road and paused to let another car pass, leaving me nowhere to go. I dived for it and wound up about 5-7m down the road after bouncing off the bonnet. Literally folded my bike in half, front wheel was overlapping the main triangle. Guy never saw me apparently, but he was driving like he didn’t have to (he got two counts of dangerous driving).

PS This is not necessarily a shot at the guys here that own 4WDs, provided they actually go off-road places that you can’t in the 82’ Corolla that I do shuttle runs in ;) They do have legitimate uses, but overwhelmingly they aren’t used for them and are used as car replacements instead.

[wtr]

Killara high (school on the northshore, ie lots of soccer mums)
Are they hot?

[fatkat]

one is.. but she doesnt drive a 4x4... 330ci.

As for Binaural and his comment on diesel- Doesnt diesel burn cleaner? It just produces black smoke which diffuses into the atmostphere.. i think.. correct me if im wrong but im pretty sure diesel burns cleaner than petrol.

Bullbars are only usefull if you need a winch. You need a winch if you go serious hardcore 4x4. And even then, i would prefer a tubular front bar.. However now days you can get "soft" bull bars which are made out of a nerf material.. except harder. Its supposed to absorb the impact and bend, then bend back in a week. Or something along those lines.

[blt2ride]

no shit? really... who woulda thought

sad fact is most 4wds these days are designed specifically for that

Exactly, most, if not all, 4WD SUVs are not made to be taken off road. Which is ok by me, if every soccer mom who had an SUV took it off road, the local 4-wheelin' trails would look the local freeways.

[Binaural]

one is.. but she doesnt drive a 4x4... 330ci.

As for Binaural and his comment on diesel- Doesnt diesel burn cleaner? It just produces black smoke which diffuses into the atmostphere.. i think.. correct me if im wrong but im pretty sure diesel burns cleaner than petrol.

Bullbars are only usefull if you need a winch. You need a winch if you go serious hardcore 4x4. And even then, i would prefer a tubular front bar.. However now days you can get "soft" bull bars which are made out of a nerf material.. except harder. Its supposed to absorb the impact and bend, then bend back in a week. Or something along those lines.

You're right and wrong about the air pollution of diesel. There seems to be a lot of static about this out there on the internet, but the following link seems reasonable:
http://www.indiainfoline.com/auto/env2.html
The summary of this article is that petrol engines create more greenhouse gases than diesel engines, but a factor of 10 less carcinogens as well as less suspended particles, which improves urban air quality. So for city dwellers with a lot of traffic around there is a lot to like about petrol engines, but our grandchildren might not think the same way.

Bullbars aren't even especially useful if you need a winch. The bullbars usually have a rigid connection to the chassis underneath to provide the strength you need when you hit a kangaroo at 80km/hr. Why not ditch the bullbars and mount the winch here, behind the grille?

Soft bullbars are not an especially great idea. They are, after all, designed to prevent animals going through your windscreen and if they deflect too much this function is nullified. Also, initial impact is only the first of your worries - bullbars are designed to knock you under the vehicle and a softer initial impact doesn't mean your survival chances are much better. I say make them easy to take on and off, then ban them in urban areas - problem solved.

[Gonzo]

Ah, 4WDs, how do I hate thee? Let me count the ways.

I dislike 4WDs in the city for a couple of reasons. Like Rik, I think they handle poorly and consume a lot more fuel than even a standard commodore V6 (I note SCBlack compared his to a V8 rather than a more "standard" Australian car). Plus, a lot of them use diesel which is cheap but stinks, produces significant air pollution and makes me choke when one drives past.


Diesel engines look like they put out more pollution than petrol engines, but the reality is that diesel exhaust is better for you than petrol exhausts. It's just that you can't see all the nasty chemicals in a petrol exhaust so you don't think about it. This is partly due to the fact that diesels are more efficient than petrol cars. Thus they use less fuel per distance travelled and so put out less exhausts.

There is also a new type of diesel called biodiesel. This is diesel fuel made from primarily vegetable oil, but can be from loads of sources including waste oil from fast food stores. Biodiesel is cleaner again than normal diesel and is also renewable.

[Binaural]

Diesel engines look like they put out more pollution than petrol engines, but the reality is that diesel exhaust is better for you than petrol exhausts. It's just that you can't see all the nasty chemicals in a petrol exhaust so you don't think about it. This is partly due to the fact that diesels are more efficient than petrol cars. Thus they use less fuel per distance travelled and so put out less exhausts.

There is also a new type of diesel called biodiesel. This is diesel fuel made from primarily vegetable oil, but can be from loads of sources including waste oil from fast food stores. Biodiesel is cleaner again than normal diesel and is also renewable.

At the moment biodiesel is used more as an additive to regular diesel rather than a standalone fuel in much the same way you see ethanol added to petrol. I think it has promise as well, but the current types need to get cheaper before they take off as an alternative fuel (they are already non-toxic, non-volatile and less polluting). Nevertheless, as petrol gets more expensive to extract biodiesel is going to start to take over I think unless there are some dramatic advantages in battery technology or hydrogen cell fuels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

[Gonzo]

Yeah, I'm trying to design a biodiesel plant at the moment. The maritime services board in sydney has expressed alot of interest in biodiesel becasue is is biodegradable and so if there is any sort of a leak, it won't stuff up the harbour. Probably has alot of potential for areas like the great barrier reef as well.

[Binaural]

The statistics I heard was that you would have to drink 3L of the stuff to kill yourself, making it about 10 times less toxic than table salt. Is that true, or just sales talk?

[Gonzo]

Sort of. That figure comes from a test that was done on rats and the results were then extrapolated to humans. The problem is that humans are much more subjectable to methanol poisining than rats.

When you drink biodiesel an enzyme in your stimach breaks off a methanol group which is then oxidised to formic acid in your bowel. Primates in general are very bad at processing formic acid when compared to non-primates and so it tends to build up in our bodies.

This isn't to say that biodiesel is bad for you. You could still drink some and not get sick. It's just the amount quoted is a bit higher than you would realistically wish to consume.

[spyderman_au]

We all seem to be straying from the point.... So I will stray even further. I think a lot of our(your) hatred of 4x4's might just stem from the fact that a large number of people are just fucked drivers and that in turn is multiplied by the fact that the 4x4's are just that little bit harder to drive than your normal sedan. If in fact all drivers were actually taught to drive in the first place we might not be having this thread.

An idiot in a landcruiser is going to cause much more problems than an idiot in a festiva.....

Please feel free to disagree or agree, but I feel that it is too fucken easy to get a licence considering how much damage cars etc can do!!!!!!

[Ell]

well, to adress a few points- seeing as this thread is going in so many directions.

to start, 4x4's for urban use seems a bit of a joke, due to the band handeling and poor economy as stated before, and also the size. But i have also heard a story about a farmer in queensalnd who drove his nissan patrol on a dirt road for 2 hours once a fortnight to get to the local shopping village- this dirt road trip caused engine problems (cracked radiator and a few other niggly bits) and, after taking the car to the nissan dealer to get it fixed under waranty- alas they said that the traveling on dirt road voids the waranty of the car. irony at its greatest.

secondly, drivers of 4x4s seem to be, commonly, of the soccer mum type, or the trophy wife- either way seemingly void of common sence (apologies to anybody who has a mum who drives a 4wd and is a fright on the road). Ive had experiences of people in the 4x4s tailgating, sitting right on your ass when your already doing 15km over the speed limit; also having them jump out of the traffic into a gap which they MAKE for themselves.

thirdly, on the topic of fuel - i hear biodisel is having a fair amount of trouble becoming a mainstream option because of the fuel tycoons quashing the prospecs. I also think i heard (from the news, most likely a media beatup) that there is a law being passed to make it illegal to run biodisel in cars.

end rant

[johnny]

I think the drama with biodesiel and legalities centres around the home biodiesel home kits that people are looking at marketing. Apparently it's as easy as making home brew. They were facing some legal/taxation dilemma with selling their kits and the gov't seemed to be going out of their way to make it harder for the idea to work. Saw it on Four Corners or something alike.

[RCOH]

This what i'm talkin' 'bout!!

http://www.navistarcxt.com/

[Ell]

This what i'm talkin' 'bout!!

http://www.navistarcxt.com/

ouch.
to quote the website...

"It's not going to fit into the standard garage," said Mark Oberle, a spokesman for Navistar, based in Warrenville, Ill., outside Chicago. "We can see it a as a vehicle for business people who want to make distinct impression. For personal use, it's for people who want to make a statement."

One of the statements: the buyer has a great deal of money to spend. The price for the CXT ranges from about $93,000 to $115,000 fully loaded, with such creature comforts as a DVD player and leather upholstery.

Buyers will also have to have a fair amount of money to fill it up -- it's projected to get between 6 and 10 miles per gallon of diesel fuel.

is it just me or does this scream excess?

[wombat]

The vehicle weighs about seven tons empty and can carry another six tons in its truck bed.
That would have to require at least a MR license wouldn't it?

[scblack]

I don't understand it either.

I own a mid size 4WD - Ford Escape, and it actually does go and get dirty, which in some eyes, gives it and my ownership of that 4WD "credibility".

As far as I'm concerned stiff shit if it does not go off road. It's a perfectly legitimate vehicle for our roads. Uses the same fuel as a typical V8, ANY vehicle with a bullbar will maim pedestrians, blah blah blah...

It actually does not worry me one bit if people dislike 4Wd's but I don't really understand the dislike. :confused:



Not a go at you at all Toodles, I just don't get it.

I will have to clarify my position here.

I own a Ford Escape – 3 litre V6 withOUT bulbar. It DOES go off road, and tows a roughly one tonne camper trailer. It does not use the fuel of a V8.

As far as I'm concerned stiff shit if it does not go off road. It's a perfectly legitimate vehicle for our roads. Uses the same fuel as a typical V8, ANY vehicle with a bullbar will maim pedestrians, blah blah blah...

In this line I am talking about large 4WDs as those in Toodles article, such as Landcruiser/Patrol/Pajero, which WILL use fuel like a V8, and many have bullbars. Re-reading my post, yes it reads I was talking about my car, but I was actually thinking about the large Patrols etc. Not clear at all there – my bad. :o

I have attached a picture of my car and camper, showing it DOES go off road. And I have also attached a pic of my friends 4WDs (with my littler one at the end). We DO go off road, we DO get them dirty and stuff.

Maybe some of the comments on here should be directed at the DRIVERS of large 4WDs. Like Binaural, if a Commodore had stopped in front of you, you would have been cleaned up either way. (a bad situation either way, hope you are fine from it now ;) ). As Rik has said, the licensing process here is woefully inadequate. I will not accept putting all the blame on a 4WD.

BUT I will agree there are some drivers who should not be on the road, no matter WHAT they are driving.

[toodles]

I also ride road motorbikes and I'm bloody sick of 4WDs changing lanes into me because they can't see below their 2 metre high window sills. The high ride height of 4WDs might give better visibility over other cars but the trade-off is that low objects such as motorbikes, sports cars and toddlers are invisible to the driver most of the time.

[thewayitis]

Alright.... My 4x4 spends its whole life dirty.. Theres mud caked on the side steps. My 4x4 (toyota 4runner 2.4 diesel) weighs 300 kg less the a commodore, even with bullbar, side steps and the rest of it. My fuel consumpsion (sp?) is 9.8litres/100km. I go 4x4 at least 4 times a week. I live in Sorrento which is basically Yuppieville on the holidays and it shatters me to see so many clean 4x4. GET THEM MUDDY FOR GOD SAKE!!!!!


Oh yeh.... by the way.... i cant overtake... it doesnt go fast enough hahahahhahaha

[scblack]

I also ride road motorbikes and I'm bloody sick of 4WDs changing lanes into me because they can't see below their 2 metre high window sills. The high ride height of 4WDs might give better visibility over other cars but the trade-off is that low objects such as motorbikes, sports cars and toddlers are invisible to the driver most of the time.

Hmmm, can't knock that Toodles, I have seen it happen. I've also seen the rider BOOT the door with his steel capped boots, leaving a hell big dent in the door :p .

I take more care driving with my car cause it's bigger than many, but I suppose many don't take that extra care. They just get in their metal cocoon and blissfully drive on. More care is needed with a larger, heavier, less nimble vehicle.

[spyderman_au]

It all comes down to the fuckwit drivers. Any car is a weapon if driven by a fucken imbecile. TEACH DRIVERS TO DRIVE!!!

[johnny]

I lost my liscence (again) after Xmas for three months. I rode everywhere (again, this is how I got into MTBs in the first place) and was so less stressed. I've had my lisence back for four months now, I still ride everywhere I can. I swear I'm much happier and relaxed. Driving and cars suck altogether.

[Daver]

Speaking of more efficient fuels, we've been running several cars on ethanol for the last few years. Not only is it more efficient, easier to source, supporting local growers and cheaper, it is much better for the car (after testing).

To test, we've used 2 utes, one xr6 using "normal" Optimax, and the other running ethanol. The one running ethanol has less internal damage (the engine has been stripped and tested after a year) compared to the one running petrol. We've had substantially lower consumption using ethanol. Because of the lesser damage, the car goes longer between service intervals. The ethanol-run ute also seems to have more apparent torque compared to the normal one as well...

Oh yeah, and until ethanol is the new way- Diesel is great. Oh yeah, and my Discovery is covered in dirt from doing shuttles, and i still use it to pick my brother up from sport (not soccer though...).

[protecon]

One of the reasons (cough excuses) that the government is banning production of home-based fuels is that the EPA can't regulate quality or emissions.

Sounds valid, but doesn't add up when it comes to excise on biodiesel.

[Adrian]

I learnt to drive in diesel 4WDs, (about 400km northwest of sydney) and didn't drive an auto until I was on my green p's. After driving 4wds, wagons and buzzboxes in the city, I question why people would choose to own something so big if their only driving environment is urban. The difficulties in driving a large vehicle through city environments more than cancels any perceived benefits in my mind. I enjoy driving big cars, just not in the city.

Oh yeah, and until ethanol is the new way- Diesel is great.

Just off topic, the heads in both my parents cars cracked within about two months of each other, and the official cause was that they were purchasing an ethanol-diessel blend (go BOGAS) that meant the engine was running at a higher temperature, during normal use. That and they were crappy underpowered mitsubishi's...

[Joel O]

my family owns a new landcruiser, we basically have very little choice because there are not that many vehicles which will comfortably tow a 2.5 tonne boat regurlarly without problems. we've had falcons etc but they just weren't capable and gearbox's etc crapped out regularly. it's meant to do roughly 10.5L/100km which is less than many family cars. yes, it does have a bullbar which is a bit excessive but necessary for mounting driving lights and winch.

the car very rarely gets driven around town. it'll be used for shopping and other things where theres more than can be carried by a person. my whole family rides/walks to school EVERY day, even if its raining.

basically a car like this IS a pain to drive around the city, it offers NO benefits over a smaller car in this situation, there is just not really a comprimise,