single pivot or Linkage driven bike

[Ryder]

In you opinion whats better to ride downhill every one has different prefrences on how bikes should ride but lots of dh frames seem to be single pivots 223, foes, bb7 the list goes on a and i just wondered who prefered what?
Cheers Ryder

[Timmy Bee]

personaly, i love single pivots, its what ive got now, and its probebly the only thing ill use in the future.

apparently multi pivots plow better though

[action man]

i currently have a multi pivot (stinky primo) and it works for me

a mate has a 223 and it seems harsh, but that was only a short ride.

i like the idea of a single pivot for the maintenance or lack thereof.

multi pivots for better suspension action and less/no brake jack.

for my next bike i will just buy what i feel comfortable riding. but with the advances in shock technology im swaying more to single pivot.

[Deniss]

how long has orange had the same design years steve peat has won heaps on an orange and look at kona what have thay done and there bikes change every few years because thay are prodution line bike where orange are hand made. I own a orange it is grate i have neaver had problem and i do every thing on it.

[luke.b]

i'm one of those people who can't decide, my single pivot was great, but i'v ridden sweet multi pivots. it is more about the shock these days.

[S.]

Okaaay... big topic here. It depends what you mean by "linkage driven" bike - do you mean a singlepivot with a linkage driving the shock (eg Konas, Turner DHR, Yeti AS-X, etc) or do you mean a 4-bar linkage bike (VPP, FSR, DW-link, Lawwill [Yeti], and so on)?

As for what you prefer, that really depends on how you prioritise. If you can clarify the above then I'll elaborate a bit.

[Timmy Bee]

yea, i should add that the reason i love the single pivot is mainly for maintanence, im too lazy to do heaps of maintanence, and i rather ride my bike than fix it, which is the mian reason i went single pivot, although i find it rides great too.

[Ryder]

Okaaay... big topic here. It depends what you mean by "linkage driven" bike - do you mean a singlepivot with a linkage driving the shock (eg Konas, Turner DHR, Yeti AS-X, etc) or do you mean a 4-bar linkage bike (VPP, FSR, DW-link, Lawwill [Yeti], and so on)?

As for what you prefer, that really depends on how you prioritise. If you can clarify the above then I'll elaborate a bit.


yeah thought it may be a little broard but, umm i mean single pivots like inverted l swingarms no linkages to the shock at all foes dhs mono, 222, super8, Gt Dhi.

[slared]

dw all the way. ahah-ahah-ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhyeah

[S.]

Okie dokie. Well if you're including linkage-driven singlepivots, then the only real difference is the shock rate. Straight singlepivots can't have drastically changing (or reversing, or truly progressive) rates, and the main thing that means is that you lose the ability to have both a soft region and a disproportionately stiff region of travel (as in, soft for good bump absorption/traction and ramping up at the end of the travel to avoid bottoming out harshly). The flipside is that they can generally be made slightly lighter, but then it's harder to make them as stiff (simply because there is only one pivot taking all the lateral/torsional loads). If you don't value bump absorption as much as light weight, then you may like how a lot of singlepivots ride. If you like to plow over/through stuff then you may prefer a more refined/forgiving shock rate offered by a shock linkage.

In the end, the question is really too broad to be answered properly.

[GTP.]

Yeah. what S. said.
I reckon linkage activated single pivots would probably be a bit stiffer because they are connected to the front triangle in two places. Just an idea though as I have never actually riden either type ;) .

[Daver]

In terms of feel a linkage bike seems to be so much easier to just plow stuff on, but, the fastest i have gone all year was on a singlepivot bike with only 3 days of riding on.

[emcgough]

look at kona what have thay done and there bikes change every few years because thay are prodution line bike
care to explain?

[Squidly Didly]

...the fastest i have gone all year was on a singlepivot bike with only 3 days of riding on.
You sure that wasn't because you had decent geometry for a change :p

[SDA]

how long has orange had the same design years steve peat has won heaps on an orange and look at kona what have thay done

Fabian Barel??? Two World Championships?

[OwcA]

A much better clarification would be:
- simple single pivot
- axel path modifying design
- rate modifying design
- axel path and rate modifying design

Let's not get into all X won Y with Z mess. To me it seems quite obvious that all the mayor archetypes can be made competitive.

I reckon linkage activated single pivots would probably be a bit stiffer because they are connected to the front triangle in two places.
True.

[Oddjob]

Personally I'm a big fan of the single pivot bikes with linkages for the shock.

My current tank is a D8, which I bought in prefernce to a Giant DH. My next ride will probably be a Turner DHR and my ultimate bike is a Brooklyn Race Link.

I just like the realiability that is inherent in that design, the ability to have a rising rate, and the pedalling efficiency.

[dhd]

care to explain?


Different colours perhaps?

[johnny_boy]

how long has orange had the same design years steve peat has won heaps on an orange and look at kona what have thay done and there bikes change every few years because thay are prodution line bike where orange are hand made. I own a orange it is grate i have neaver had problem and i do every thing on it.
Geez, steve peat looks somewhat french in this photo of him on top of the podium at the recent world champs in Livingo, riding his orange to victory.

[Daver]

You sure that wasn't because you had decent geometry for a change :p
Yeah probably. But then again, Squid road a singlepivot and he went crap on the weekend.

[Wayno]

Having used both designs both have pros and cons I am on a single pivot at the moment and owned 4 bar for 4 years. Single pivot is so much more powerful in accelaration out of corners where four bar is so much more supple when the going gets rough.
But the differrence in braking is the only thing that really gets me the four bar linkage is so much nicer then single pivot but I will get use to it, like everything it can only get better with time and it can be fixed with a floating brake. But in all I think the single pivot is winning at the moment for me just because of accelaration and pedaling it just doesn't want me stop pedalling. But that all said it all depends on the shock that you are using.

[Bodin]

Like some others who've responded (eg: S.), I don't think there's much choice in your poll. The main reason is that both Orange and Kona bikes have only one single pivot between the rear axle and the main frame. I think having two pivots between the rear axle and main frame is where it's at. DH bikes I rode at Mt Buller last summer to form this opinion:

1. Santa Cruz Bullit
Single pivot, very similar to an Orange and feels like it folds in half every time is uses its travel. Brake jacks like a mofo, but had a particularly well-tuned 5th element on it, so it had a good balance of suspension/pedalling performance.

2. Kona Stinky (can't remember the specific type)
Hire bike that was set up by VicMTB with everything on hard to cope with the abuse that hire bikes get. Even are three trips back to the shop to try and make this brick of a bike plusher, the thing still felt like it wanted to stop completely every time I tried riding over anything bigger than a golf ball. Clearly the most poorly-designed bike I've ever tried to ride down a hill.

3. Very old Iron Horse SGS (01 model?? - ask chuckrockswell, he sold it to me...)
The FSR suspension on this bike restored my belief that I could ride DH to a reasonable level. Does everything well and doesn't suffer from brake jack or chain feedback and is the plough I always wanted.

[S.]

Having used both designs both have pros and cons I am on a single pivot at the moment and owned 4 bar for 4 years. Single pivot is so much more powerful in accelaration out of corners where four bar is so much more supple when the going gets rough.
But the differrence in braking is the only thing that really gets me the four bar linkage is so much nicer then single pivot but I will get use to it, like everything it can only get better with time and it can be fixed with a floating brake. But in all I think the single pivot is winning at the moment for me just because of accelaration and pedaling it just doesn't want me stop pedalling. But that all said it all depends on the shock that you are using.

Most FSR bikes have the pedalling characteristics of a singlepivot with a pivot positioned just behind the BB, and pedal to identically to how a singlepivot with the pivot in that position would. The singlepivot/4bar thing has nothing directly to do with pedalling EXCEPT IN SPECIFIC CASES, it's not some magic thing that arbitrarily decides whether your bike will pedal well based on how many pivots it has. You simply cannot make generalisations like that. The only fair generalisation (IMO) is to say that you CAN tune a 4-bar linkage (be it FSR, DW-link, VPP, etc etc) to have certain characteristics (such as varying centre of curvature) that are NOT possible on singlepivots.

As for braking, a) it's not that big a deal anyway (IMO), b) any real braking advantage given by a particular 4-bar design can be matched by a floating brake on a singlepivot. And unless you really know what you're doing, which most bike manufacturers have shown that they don't, I have my doubts about whether they can successfully manipulate a 4-bar design to have both the desired pedalling and braking characteristics (yes it is possible, but I've only seen evidence of one bike manufacturer/designer knowing how to do it).

[Wayno]

Most FSR bikes have the pedalling characteristics of a singlepivot with a pivot positioned just behind the BB, and pedal to identically to how a singlepivot with the pivot in that position would. The singlepivot/4bar thing has nothing directly to do with pedalling EXCEPT IN SPECIFIC CASES, it's not some magic thing that arbitrarily decides whether your bike will pedal well based on how many pivots it has. You simply cannot make generalisations like that. The only fair generalisation (IMO) is to say that you CAN tune a 4-bar linkage (be it FSR, DW-link, VPP, etc etc) to have certain characteristics (such as varying centre of curvature) that are NOT possible on singlepivots.

As for braking, a) it's not that big a deal anyway (IMO), b) any real braking advantage given by a particular 4-bar design can be matched by a floating brake on a singlepivot. And unless you really know what you're doing, which most bike manufacturers have shown that they don't, I have my doubts about whether they can successfully manipulate a 4-bar design to have both the desired pedalling and braking characteristics (yes it is possible, but I've only seen evidence of one bike manufacturer/designer knowing how to do it).

Thanks for that. What I had written was my opinion and IMO the pedaling characteristics are much better out of corners for the single pivot so it must be some kind of magical thing and I can do that kind of genralisation because this is what I have found between the two main types of bike designs.

[whywalkwhenucanroll]

Giant ATX all the way!!

...yes it is possible, but I've only seen evidence of one bike manufacturer/designer knowing how to do it.

Who would that be? DW link? You Should design said phenomenon and sell it for millions to one of the big companies.

IMO:
I've always preferred a decent horst link to a single pivot for the ride characteristics (it just feels nicer) but my experience ranges through Giant Warp, Ironhorse G-spot and Ginsu, Craftworks DHR208, Giant ATX, Extension (Baldriks one) and a Kona Stinky (pretty sure). So I haven’t got very good practical experience on decent single pivots. As far as pedalling goes, I rode an ATX with a DHX5 and boy was that sweet. Didn't move an inch when I cranked it and ate everything in its path. These new breed of stiction shocks are all you need to make any bike feel sweet.

[Deniss]

care to explain?

(PRODUCTION LINE BIKES ARE SHIT)

[Oddjob]

In terms of feel a linkage bike seems to be so much easier to just plow stuff on, but, the fastest i have gone all year was on a singlepivot bike with only 3 days of riding on.

That's a pretty big generalisation. I reckon my D8 would be more of a plow than most 4 bar bikes, with maybe the exception of your old DH9.

Anyway as everyone else keeps saying it all depends on the bike. You can make single pivots and 4 bars mimic each other pretty easily, it really comes down to pivot placement and the rate of activation.

[S.]

Thanks for that. What I had written was my opinion and IMO the pedaling characteristics are much better out of corners for the single pivot so it must be some kind of magical thing and I can do that kind of genralisation because this is what I have found between the two main types of bike designs.

*sigh* I didn't mean to rip on your opinion, simply trying to give some clarity and objectiveness to the debate. The singlepivots you have ridden (I don't know what they are, maybe a 222 and/or a GT DHi and/or a Yakuza Kumicho and/or a Bullit) may have pedalled better than the 4-bars you have ridden. What I am trying to say is that this is not *because* they're singlepivots (as in, them being singlepivots isn't the reason that they may pedal well), it's because of their configuration. Same goes for 4-bars, some pedal like crap and some pedal well, depending on their configuration - but it's not *because* they're 4-bars. Sorry if I offended you, hope that clears things up.

Giant ATX all the way!!



Who would that be? DW link? You Should design said phenomenon and sell it for millions to one of the big companies.

IMO:
I've always preferred a decent horst link to a single pivot for the ride characteristics (it just feels nicer) but my experience ranges through Giant Warp, Ironhorse G-spot and Ginsu, Craftworks DHR208, Giant ATX, Extension (Baldriks one) and a Kona Stinky (pretty sure). So I haven’t got very good practical experience on decent single pivots. As far as pedalling goes, I rode an ATX with a DHX5 and boy was that sweet. Didn't move an inch when I cranked it and ate everything in its path. These new breed of stiction shocks are all you need to make any bike feel sweet.

Yerp, DW-link. Why would I bother trying to do something like that? It's pretty damn obvious just from the marketing, that a lot of bike builders don't fully understand the physics involved (not that it's complicated, but it isn't easy to work out without either spending a lot of time on it, or having it explained to you), and that bikes sell on reputation and marketing rather than physics. Do you really reckon Santa Cruz are going to turn around and say "Hey we've got this new system we're licencing after we found out that our VPP design was based on flawed/incomplete theories", or Specialized saying the same with FSR, or Ellsworth with their ICT, or Giant with their Maestro thing? It's not going to happen, they stand to lose far more from losing face with something like that, than they stand to gain from having a bike that performs slightly better (let's face it, performance gains are not huge anywhere, enough that personal bias is obviously enough to sway a person's beliefs one way or the other). As you said, the current crop of shocks make any bike pedal pretty well (not that it's without its tradeoff, namely stiction as you mentioned), and unless you had some incredible way of making a bike pedal *heaps* better (which might have been possible 5 years ago, when there were a lot of bikes that pedalled like crap, and shock manufacturers were still trying to decrease stiction) or do something magically awesome, then trying to prove that your system is better is really going to be a nightmare. It may be noticeable in a double-blind back to back test, but who actually does anything like that? Nobody (pity bike mags don't, it's pretty clear that some of them just listen to the marketing spiel then regurgitate it). And it's not like not understanding exactly how a bike works means that you can't make one that works well simply through conceptual design and trial-and-error. I might have my doubts about bike brand X knowing what they're talking about when it comes to pedalling performance, but after 10/15/20 years in the game, what are the odds of them NOT having stumbled across a configuration that works reasonably well? Refine it a bit every year and eventually they will come across a setup that does work fairly well (simply because there aren't really that many realistic, possible configurations you can have for a bike suspension).

And there's always the fact that people will settle for less-than-perfect in any situation. Most people just ride what they've got and love it, and in the end that's all that matters.

[kona_boy]

how long has orange had the same design years steve peat has won heaps on an orange and look at kona what have thay done and there bikes change every few years because thay are prodution line bike where orange are hand made. I own a orange it is grate i have neaver had problem and i do every thing on it.

and how many races have Kovarik, Barel and Minaar each won there multi pivot bikes ?

[emcgough]

(PRODUCTION LINE BIKES ARE SHIT)
Is this of any relevance to my question?

[kona_boy]

2. Kona Stinky (can't remember the specific type)
Hire bike that was set up by VicMTB with everything on hard to cope with the abuse that hire bikes get. Even are three trips back to the shop to try and make this brick of a bike plusher, the thing still felt like it wanted to stop completely every time I tried riding over anything bigger than a golf ball. Clearly the most poorly-designed bike I've ever tried to ride down a hill.



if that was the case then 1. people wouldnt buy them 2. kona would have changed it. 3. its technically a FR bike...but thats getting technical. 4. i think you must be an XC rider cos my stinky rides over golf balls quite easily.

(and im not just saying that cos im a kona whore)

[kona_boy]

while we are sorta on topic, can someone please tell me why Oranges are so damned expensive. ffs they are aluminium singe pivots. its not a engineering miracle or anything.

please enlighten me

[S.]

while we are sorta on topic, can someone please tell me why Oranges are so damned expensive. ffs they are aluminium singe pivots. its not a engineering miracle or anything.

please enlighten me

a) made in England (rather than Taiwan)
b) expensive = less common (hah, or so you'd think, they're freakin everywhere) = prestige = people want it more.
c) They do some pretty interesting work with the monocoque, which admittedly I don't know a lot about, but I can't imagine it being cheaper than a conventional tubeset.

[kona_boy]

a) made in England (rather than Taiwan)
b) expensive = less common (hah, or so you'd think, they're freakin everywhere) = prestige = people want it more.
c) They do some pretty interesting work with the monocoque, which admittedly I don't know a lot about, but I can't imagine it being cheaper than a conventional tubeset.

a) so...just adds price which adds b-penis. the factories in Taiwan are the same as they would use to produce bikes in paying countries. they are in Taiwan cos they dont have to pay people to operate them. (exxageration on the paying thing, you get the idea though)

b)see above

c)admitably better tubing, but arent M3's monocoque, and whyte 46's...they are much more complex bikes with a bit of design effort in them. not some single pivot thing. i cant believe people spend money on them. really i cant. im gonna get flamed very soon by some Orange Agents.

d) i wouldnt like to see my thousands of dollars go into a k-mart looking bike with k-mart suspension technology. (not necessarily k-mart frame material)

[S.]

a) so...just adds price which adds b-penis. the factories in Taiwan are the same as they would use to produce bikes in paying countries. they are in Taiwan cos they dont have to pay people to operate them. (exxageration on the paying thing, you get the idea though)

b)see above

c)admitably better tubing, but arent M3's monocoque, and whyte 46's...they are much more complex bikes with a bit of design effort in them. not some single pivot thing. i cant believe people spend money on them. really i cant. im gonna get flamed very soon by some Orange Agents.

d) i wouldnt like to see my thousands of dollars go into a k-mart looking bike with k-mart suspension technology. (not necessarily k-mart frame material)

a and b) yeah maybe. big debate that I'm not gonna bother with here.

c) RRP for a 222 = $4500? M3 = $5900? Bit of a jump there...

d) So howcome you're a Kona fan?

[OwcA]

I belive their high-end frames are hand-made so it's not just a question of factory location but more of boutique versus mass-produced.

P.S. do keep in mind I own one, so I am a little bit baised

[Bodin]

if that was the case then 1. people wouldnt buy them 2. kona would have changed it. 3. its technically a FR bike...but thats getting technical. 4. i think you must be an XC rider cos my stinky rides over golf balls quite easily.

(and im not just saying that cos im a kona whore)

1. Popularity does speak for a lot, so you've got me there, but there are a lot of cool bikes out there that don't get anywhere near as much marketing and distribution as Konas.

2. Kona would love to change it. Like someone else said on a different post where I was bagging Konas: watch how fast they jump on the Horst Link when the patent expires...

3. Yes, it's an FR bike and all I was pointing out is that, as a DH bike, a Kona makes a great FR bike - it drops well, but it clearly ain't built for going DH fast. Barel and Minaar (and others) do make a liar out of me, but both ride bikes that have massive modifications from the stock single pivots that most of us here can afford to run.

4. Yes, I'm a lycra-wearin' enduro XC dude who doesn't really know much about going DH fast. I think what that means is that I have a fairly unbiased opinion about DH bikes, which means I was able to judge three completely different bikes last summer and work out which one I liked the best. :cool:

[kona_boy]

hehehe....lol. i win :p

just kidding.

[kona_boy]

I belive their high-end frames are hand-made so it's not just a question of factory location but more of boutique versus mass-produced.

P.S. do keep in mind I own one, so I am a little bit baised

i suppose so.
but it doesnt change my opinion still ;)

[kona_boy]

a and b) yeah maybe. big debate that I'm not gonna bother with here.

c) RRP for a 222 = $4500? M3 = $5900? Bit of a jump there...

d) So howcome you're a Kona fan?

a) and b) me either. not in the mood.

c)M3=$5500 according to my shop. but [R]evolution mag seems to think $5200

d)first decent MTB was a 2002 Stuff which i did a paper run for a year to save/pay off. huge improvement over my old mongoose. i guess when you work your ass off for it you love it more.
the brand itself has always appealed to me. their attitudes, their way of thinking etc
my Stuff was an absoulte beast. it is still serving me well after 3 years of hard labour.
my dad bought a Kahuna Dee-Lux in 03 cos he was so happy with my Stuff.
i have been a Kona whore from the start i guess. they are just indestructable and ALWAYS reliable.
then onto my stinky. its champion. 04 with 05 Shermans and hayes mags (which i took from my faithful stuff).

Kona has served me well for nearly 4 years. why change now...seeing that im getting next years Stab Primo frame to take over the stinky :p

[thecat]

So much depends on the actual design, pivot plavement, shock choice and use.

I ride a single pivot with linkage activated shock for XC and find that particular bike great for that particular purpose.

For DH I ride a Lawwil which I find great for that particular purpose.

The whole wank about 4bar/multipivots being more maintence is exactly that. I gave my old Giant AC curry for 2 and a half years without ever touching the pivots. So eliminating a 4bar design solely to save 30min maintance every couple of years is pretty silly.

In a massive generallisation I will say the single pivots I've riden have tended to be a bit more responsive pedalwise but have all suffered a little bit over small stutters at high speed.

The 4bars I've riden seemed to track the ground a lot better over on fast stuff and left me with a better feeling of control.

That said frame geometry, pivot placement and shock choice/ set up may have played a bigger roll in how I thought they rode.

At the end of the day find a bike that feels good under you and don't worry about the marketing hype

[joyce]

What can you say that hasn't been already said, linkage frames pedal soo much better and don't rely on shock tech as much as a single pivot. i ride a shockwave 9.5 it's a single pivot with a three piece link for the shock which allows a ramping effect... makeing it near impossible to bottom, tho my back tyre hits the seat before reaching full travel anyway. however it relys on the shock tech for pedaling ability.

[OwcA]

What can you say that hasn't been already said, linkage frames pedal soo much better and don't rely on shock tech as much as a single pivot. i ride a shockwave 9.5 it's a single pivot with a three piece link for the shock which allows a ramping effect... makeing it near impossible to bottom, tho my back tyre hits the seat before reaching full travel anyway. however it relys on the shock tech for pedaling ability.
Do tell me how a Kona with "Walking beam" design pedals so much better than say an Orange Five (simple single pivot, swing-arm axle placed high)?

Even assuming you meant linkage == axel path modification, that is still a bit of (uncalled for) generalisation. Take for example high-pivot with pulley solutions. Mind you, it is a more brute-force approach but on the other hand also more uncompromising.
Or what about VPP? Without a platform shock it could (at least in some configurations) have issues with pealing not unlike a simple single pivot.

[S.]

What can you say that hasn't been already said, linkage frames pedal soo much better and don't rely on shock tech as much as a single pivot. i ride a shockwave 9.5 it's a single pivot with a three piece link for the shock which allows a ramping effect... makeing it near impossible to bottom, tho my back tyre hits the seat before reaching full travel anyway. however it relys on the shock tech for pedaling ability.

Freakin. Generalisations are worthless, you cannot lump bikes into two categories like that and make such broad claims - they're simply not true. Some singlepivots pedal well, some don't, some linkage bikes pedal well, some don't.

[Tomas]

Freakin. Generalisations are worthless, you cannot lump bikes into two categories like that and make such broad claims - they're simply not true. Some singlepivots pedal well, some don't, some linkage bikes pedal well, some don't.

Oh get out! VPP OBVIOUSLY pedals way better while having good small bump sensitivity. Single Pivot is old and played out and jacks hell bad. 4bar is not to bad but dives into corners!

You trying to tell the whole bike comminty their rabid generalisations are... heavens forbid... wrong?!?!

[Joly Joe Rider]

What can you say that hasn't been already said, linkage frames pedal soo much better and don't rely on shock tech as much as a single pivot. i ride a shockwave 9.5 it's a single pivot with a three piece link for the shock which allows a ramping effect... makeing it near impossible to bottom, tho my back tyre hits the seat before reaching full travel anyway. however it relys on the shock tech for pedaling ability.

I have ridden a SC Super 8. its a no brainer single pivot and I reckon it pedaled quite well for a bike with 7+" of rear travel and a Fox vanilla RC, brake jacking didn't ever seem to have a bad effect on anything. I will admit that later the same bike was fitted with at 5th element and pedaled even better but the bike was a little harder over the rough stuff.

[oz-freerider]

[QUOTE=Tomas] 4bar is not to bad but dives into corners! [QUOTE]


after riding a M1 and a M3 back to back (m3 was set up for a heavyer rider) i'd say they dive as much as each other the M1 (my bike is set up super soft) dives a fair bit under my weight buts the way it's been setup the M3 was set up with a 85kg + rider i'm 70ish and it still dives a fair bit... so if it was set as soft as my M1 i'd say it would dive about the same amount if not more.

[S.]

4bar is not to bad but dives into corners!


after riding a M1 and a M3 back to back (m3 was set up for a heavyer rider) i'd say they dive as much as each other the M1 (my bike is set up super soft) dives a fair bit under my weight buts the way it's been setup the M3 was set up with a 85kg + rider i'm 70ish and it still dives a fair bit... so if it was set as soft as my M1 i'd say it would dive about the same amount if not more.

I think he was joking ;)

[miko]

This is more a question directed at S. What's your thoughts on DW link vs. Maestro? They seem similar-ish, but obviously they are different enough to not infringe patents ;)

Anyone else done a quick analysis?

[udi]

Anyone else done a quick analysis?

Yes.

Giant are the biggest bicycle company in the world, but are so tight that they can't drop the few pennies required to use a patented suspension design on their bicycles. So they make the minimal amount of changes required to use the design without infringing the patent. And then they usually do anyway, because they are so stupid - and proceed to drop hundreds of thousands of dollars on the lawsuits that ensue - but they feel they have succeeded as long as they don't have to pay the miniscule royalties for using said design legitimately in the first place.

[S.]

This is more a question directed at S. What's your thoughts on DW link vs. Maestro? They seem similar-ish, but obviously they are different enough to not infringe patents ;)

Anyone else done a quick analysis?

They are dissimilar enough not to violate patents, yes. DW-link does something that's quite unusual, and that is to have a widening radius of curvature as the bike moves through its travel. In contrast, Maestro has a very much tightening radius of curvature as it moves through its travel. Having read the Maestro "tech" page (http://www.suspensionmadeharmonious.com/) and seeing that they clearly don't have a firm grasp of bicycle suspension physics (either that or they just lie about stuff, but I doubt anyone would knowingly do that), I'm inclined to consider it yet another over-marketed facade which will work well enough to have anyone willing to lay down the money for it finding it easy enough to convince themselves that it's the best thing ever. As for DW-link, the premise on which the suspension works (with regard to pedalling) is to have an anti-squat curve which is as close as possible to 100% (as in 100% anti-squat, ie no rear end movement under acceleration) for all practical pedalling areas (basically from 0-50% travel from what I understand), and a decreasing anti-squat rate (as the effective spring force increases and thus takes over from drive-induced forces in order to maintain a firm-pedalling suspension) as the bike moves into the second part of its travel. Given that I'm yet to even see anyone else (including Giant, SC, Specialized etc) even mention anti-squat curves/rates (they are a widely known and used device in regard to motorcycle design, and not a particularly complex one either), I'd say the real difference is that DW-link *does* do what it claims with regards to pedalling and braking; can't comment on shock rate though, as it's directly tied in with the damper rate, and the DW-link bikes need specially-tuned shocks (well the Sundays do anyway) in order to perform the way they're designed to.

[Juls]

I don't have alot to add to this thread,
but here is my thoughts having ridden 2 similar but separate designed bikes.

I came off a stinky onto a IH kumicho, both single pivot based, cept the stinky has the 4 bar.

Stability and small bump response in the rear suspension, the stinky wins hands down, it can absorb small and large bumps easily without any noticable chain growth or pedal feedback. Braking doesn't seem to effect it enough for it to be noticeable either.

The Kumicho tends to not absorb small bumps or square edged one off bumps especially while pedaling, pedal feedback is very noticeable with the kumicho, and you notice it reducing the capability of the suspension to operate. Braking with or without the floater, does not noticeably effect the bike. the weight advantage there is by removing the floater, outdoes the advantage of theoretically more traction under braking.

Actual pedaling, in acceleration the kumicho wins hands down, pedaling in general but, the stinky has less bob, and is easier to pedal over rough ground.

Carpark test, the kumicho rear end feels like sex, the stinky feels like poo.. thats all there is too it.. but amazingly the stinky works better in the bush than the kumicho.

So why go a pure single pivot kumicho over the 4 bar stinky?
well what saves the kumicho is the extra 1-2" of travel, but moreso the Geometry, the geo on the kumicho is far superior for DH running, and that allows it to remain plenty stable in all conditions, even if the suspension isn't working as good. Don't get me wrong, in some areas the kumicho suspension is better, but overall the standard stinky suspension is better for a bit of everything.

I'll still choose the kumicho over the stinky, the extra room in the top tube, the slacker head angle and more travel just makes it a nicer bike to ride overall for DH/FR applications.

if i had to choose a bike to trail ride occasionally, and do some DJ.. i'd take the stinky.

Juls

(PS, don't comprehend the stinky reference as being the same as a stab, the stab has a totally different pivot posistion which is actually similar to the kumicho pivot location)

[MrPlow]

apparently multi pivots plow better though

Oooh Yeh :D

[lukethedork]

im confuzed, is the banshee scream a linkage, or single pivot then? ~.^

[OwcA]

Single pivot (in terms of axle path) with rate alteration.

[DWNHLR01]

I've mainly ridden single pivots...They are my preferance, mainly because IMO you have to choose better lines so as you dont get bucked around as much.

I rode my mates Haro DHR and with that I found you could pin it over any line and not get chucked around.

[Wattsy]

FFS, can we get one thing straight, production line DOES NOT mean machine made, 80% of the work on the frames is still done by hand, its just done in larger quantities. most of the machine work is for bending, cutting, forming of the tubes used in the frame manifacture. yes, the welding maybe done by a machine because ifs programed to, but all inital spot welding is done by hand to insure no slipups in frame faults.
so, production frames does not mean its all made by a machine, infact, hardly anything is done by machines.

[Bodin]

I've mainly ridden single pivots...They are my preferance, mainly because IMO you have to choose better lines so as you dont get bucked around as much.

So... you're forcing yourself to ride inferior equipment so your skills improve?

I can understand this logic when applied to a training situation, but in a race situation you'd wanna be riding gear that allows you to ride whatever line's in front of you with the minimum effect, yeah?

[Wattsy]

So... you're forcing yourself to ride inferior equipment so your skills improve?

I can understand this logic when applied to a training situation, but in a race situation you'd wanna be riding gear that allows you to ride whatever line's in front of you with the minimum effect, yeah?


i gotta agree, what he said just didnt make sence, i dont have any probs with choicing different lines cause of my BB7. take same lines as everyone eles (or the secret ones :D )

[Daver]

If its any consolation, Barel, Gracia and Vouilloz all rate a singlepivot as the best bike they've ridden. Surprisingly, the only modern bike that resembles a Brossard designed Sunn is the Balfa BB7/8.

So there you go, the fastest DH bike in the eyes of the pros is a high singlepivot.

[toodles]

If its any consolation, Barel, Gracia and Vouilloz all rate a singlepivot as the best bike they've ridden. Surprisingly, the only modern bike that resembles a Brossard designed Sunn is the Balfa BB7/8.

So there you go, the fastest DH bike in the eyes of the pros is a high singlepivot.

What the hell would any of those clowns know? I bet none of them have a post count higher than 500.

And it's Bossard not Brossard.

[Bodin]

If its any consolation, Barel, Gracia and Vouilloz all rate a singlepivot as the best bike they've ridden. Surprisingly, the only modern bike that resembles a Brossard designed Sunn is the Balfa BB7/8.

So there you go, the fastest DH bike in the eyes of the pros is a high singlepivot.

These guys all learned their skills from a BMX or motoX background - none of which are linkage bikes, so I'm not entirely surprised by this. For dudes of their skill level, I'm not sure how the "plough-ability" of a linkage bike would assist them, as they already float above the course anyways...

What the hell would any of those clowns know? I bet none of them have a post count higher than 500.

LOL

[Daver]

What the hell would any of those clowns know? I bet none of them have a post count higher than 500.

And it's Bossard not Brossard.

Good call, good call.

I wish i had a post count higher than 500 :rolleyes:

[Wattsy]

I wish i had a post count higher than 500 :rolleyes:


ahahahaha, piss squid off?

[S.]

If its any consolation, Barel, Gracia and Vouilloz all rate a singlepivot as the best bike they've ridden. Surprisingly, the only modern bike that resembles a Brossard designed Sunn is the Balfa BB7/8.

So there you go, the fastest DH bike in the eyes of the pros is a high singlepivot.

Actually, besides the fact that the Sunn had a linkage driving the shock, the PDC DH-1 looks more like a Sunn Radical Plus than the BB7 does, and iirc the Sunns didn't actually have pulleys for the chain (anyone got a good side-on pic of one? I haven't seen one in ages).


IMHO it's all in the execution, and where you prioritise. You simply CANNOT get "optimum" performance out of every aspect of a bike without compromising others. You can make a VERY nice singlepivot bike, or a super shitty one. You can also make a linkage bike that rides super nicely, or you can make one that is nearly unrideable. Generalisations are useless.

[No Skid Marks]

WHat about all posts by S are correct(as a genralisation)?
High single pivots where it's at.

[S.]

Nope, plenty of those have been fucked too :D

[Christo]

I ride a four-bar horst link DH bike & it's awesome but for mucking around & jumping, I want a single-pivot.

So multi for DH

Single for DJ/FR

IMO anyway..

[Bodin]

Did anyone watch the World Champs on SBS yesterday morning? Barel was f&*(ing incredible on his "faux-bar" Kona, Sam Hill was slightly less f&*(ing incredible on his dw link, Steve Peat was just plain funny on his single-pivot and, as much as it pains me, I don't think I saw anyone riding any kind of FSR... ***sniff***

Oh, and Rennie's stack on his VPP bike was like watching a cartoon.

[Daver]

I ride a four-bar horst link DH bike & it's awesome but for mucking around & jumping, I want a single-pivot.

So multi for DH

Single for DJ/FR

IMO anyway..

Maybe you should ride more bikes...

[Christo]

Maybe you should ride more bikes...

Huh?

Wasn't this about linkage vs. single pivot?

If you must know I also have two HT's...

[Simon B]

I rode a 4 bar linkage bike and then bought a turner. I Found the turner dhr to not bob on pedaling with only a fox 02 rear shock, be super plush through rock gardens and anything of camber would stick like shit to your foot. I found brake jake to be fine and would just stay of the back brake.I vote for single pivot as it kicks ass.

[S.]

Did anyone watch the World Champs on SBS yesterday morning? Barel was f&*(ing incredible on his "faux-bar" Kona, Sam Hill was slightly less f&*(ing incredible on his dw link, Steve Peat was just plain funny on his single-pivot and, as much as it pains me, I don't think I saw anyone riding any kind of FSR... ***sniff***

Oh, and Rennie's stack on his VPP bike was like watching a cartoon.

Just goes to show it's the rider not the bike eh. The same guys would be up in the same places on pretty much any bikes IMO.

[ajay]

Just goes to show it's the rider not the bike eh. The same guys would be up in the same places on pretty much any bikes IMO.

hence - Greg Minnar: Orange (Global) , Haro, Honda...

just plain quick:cool:

[H8SV8S]

Vpp........

[ZZ]

Look although this thread I think was intensionally meant to be single pivot versus linkages it has been decided that it's single pivot versus single pivot with linkages to run the shock. VPP has no more merit in this conversation than horst links or tits on a bull.