Sore legs, what to do?

[johnny]

I'm hoping some of you enduro freaks might be able to advise me here.

I ride about 120kms a week both commuting and recreational. The vast majority of it is on a 14kg Cannondale Chase single speed. The seat is low somethimes making my knee area (lower quads) work, some is with the seat raised so my upper quads/calves/hamstrings do the work. All riding is done in moderately hilly areas. I also go to the gym about 5-6 days a week for high intensity/weight training, on average about 2 hours per visit. I follow a fairly strict and sound routine which involves at least one day of legs a week. I lift heavy weight with my legs (up to 320kg on leg press, 120kg squats, 40kg single leg extensions and so on).

Recently Sydney has been experiencing fairly high wind, therefore most of my riding has become heavy stomping rather than high cadence style.

At this same time I have been experiencing great tiredness in my legs. Not stiffness, but a feeling of exhaustion. I've held a heavy exercise regime for years and this is the first time I've experienced this exhaustion in my legs, so I put it down to the extra work the wind has caused me.

Can anyone advise me on whether 1. My assumptions on the wind being the cause is the case 2. methods of better recovery 3. training tips that will get me over this plateau.

My diet is sound. Carbs with some protien in the morning, half/half carbs and protien for lunch, high protien low carbs for dinner (I'm talking HIGH protien content here. Hydrolised whey, egg, white/red meat, etc.). I probably should stretch more, but I can see that affecting stiffness rather than tiredness.

Any help here would be grately appreciated!

Sore legs johnny.

[Captain Blake]

Getting old?
I'd be stretching before every ride. Hamis, quads, calfs and whatever else you see necessary.

[craigb]

i never ever stretch before a ride i know other people will say you must or should but each to there own. i went threw a period with the same problem i put it down to just needing a rest so i took a couple of weeks off the bike and when i got back on it i was not only feeling better but also had my love for riding renewed. also riding with your seat down is not a good thing unless your a dirt jumper. when i was young (im 25 now) we are talking 16 i was into bmx and my knee's where sore alot gave up on the bmx got a mountain bike and no sore knee's p.s i ride single speed aswell

[johnny]

Stretching PRE-execise is almost out the door.

I was part of a study about 12 years ago where we undertook physical training for three months. We were the control group that stretched before training. The experimental group only stretched afterwards. There were significantly less injuries (compartment syndrome, tendinities (sp?) etc.) in the experimental than the control. Stretching seems only worthwhile post execise or when you are going to be using flexibility in the exercise action.

Plus, stretching affects stiffness more so than soreness (as I said in the first post......). My knees feel fine, it's just my quads that are tired and exhausted.

I seriously hope that it is not an issue of taking time off for recovery.

As for recovery, I do not use the same muscle group for resistance training without three days rest in between workouts. The day after a leg workout I will take the bus instead of riding. I also know that it is not overall exhaustion because my energy levels and motivation is still high and the rest of my body feels fine. It's just my legs that are the prob. I'm hoping that there are some enduro or roady tips that could help......LOOKING SQUARELY AT YOU HERE JOSEPH!! :)

[Gonzo]

i never ever stretch before a ride i know other people will say you must or should but each to there own. i went threw a period with the same problem i put it down to just needing a rest so i took a couple of weeks off the bike and when i got back on it i was not only feeling better but also had my love for riding renewed. also riding with your seat down is not a good thing unless your a dirt jumper. when i was young (im 25 now) we are talking 16 i was into bmx and my knee's where sore alot gave up on the bmx got a mountain bike and no sore knee's p.s i ride single speed aswell



You should never stretch before a ride. Stretching before a ride increases the chance of muscle damage as well as weaking the muscles so you get less power. You should only stretch when your muscles are warm, the best timee is just after rides or else during.

[Pete J]

Coming from a similar age as you, i'd say that the seat height might have a part to play. I know that when i ride my bikes with the seat low, i get leg problems as well. If i am riding any significant length of time i always jack my seat right up. My knees and thighs can't take the heat like they used to. :o
Other than that i can't think why such good condition muscles would be doing what you describe. :confused:

[aaron01]

Personaly sounds like you need to include a rest day in the trainning schedule, I used to train like that (6days a week) but have gone back to 4 days, not including rides etc due to increasing fatigue in the legs. As you said you've been doing this for a while but maybe the body is saying slow down a bit.
I'm now trainning 4 days at the gym 1 day legs, 2 days cardio, 1 day uppers & riding to & from work (15-20kms) on my ss for 6 days a week + night rides & social gear on weekend etc & with this trainning I have found my riding & endurance has improved 10 fold, infact the 24hrs are a walk in the park recovery wise now.
Hope you sort it out what ever the problem is.

[ebuk]

I can't say I have found the winds much fun lately but they haven't affected my body at all and I am doing between 100 - 150km each week commuting and recreational. But we're all different I guess.

I used to have leg fatigue/soreness after riding. After some advice I used a protein shake after my rides and found that my muscles felt great and were no longer tired.

I understand you are taking in high protein already but how long after your ride are you consuming it? I was recommended to take the drink within 30 - 60 mins of completing the ride. I use a powder bought from the chemist but it is also sold in woolies for around $20 for 500g. If you find you like it a 3kg tub is about $100 and at 45g used per serve its pretty cheap.

Just my thoughts. Hope they help some. And its blowing a gale up on the beaches today. more winds on the way home :(

[dilemma]

At this same time I have been experiencing great tiredness in my legs. Not stiffness, but a feeling of exhaustion.


Heavy legs? I wouldn't rule out overtraining as a cause.

Maybe on the days after your heavy leg work in the gym, if you ride at all, make it a really light, easy spin. Possibly not so easy on a singlespeed... Either that or give your legs a full day to rest. Sounds like they may not be getting adequate recovery, and yeah, riding into the wind isn't going to help!

I've always found that a light easy spin for maybe half and hour the day after a heavy leg session at the gym does the trick. (Although I was only getting up to 90kgs on the squats, not quite the big ones!! - enough to make my jeans tight that day!!)

Another thing, but sounds like your glutes aren't doing the work they should be on the bike. Don't forget they are the biggest muscle and are often not given the workload they need to take the load off the hammies and quads. Play around with seat position, etc and when you pedal, try and push down from your glutes through your heels to get 'em working.

Not a professional opinion by any means but it's from personal experience.

[johnny]

Heavy legs? I wouldn't rule out overtraining as a cause.

May not be a professional opinion, but I think you're on the money here!

I also spoke to a roady mate of mine, Joseph, and he really nailed it I think. He agrees with you that I'm overtraining, but more to the point, I'm overtraining a specific musclegroup due to SS and seat position (which is the same as what you're saying about my glutes).

Becuase I ride the jump bike style frame, I can never even come close to full extension. Therefore when I ride, the front of my quads, the tired part, gets stretched out on the top of every pedal stroke, yet doesn't get to fully extend at the bottom. Add this to single speed and hills and even wind, this means I'm definately overworking the partial range of one particular muscle group. then add the leg press and squats, you end up with tired legs like mine.

Solution, get the XC bike back on the road and alternate bikes in view of leg workouts. I do get quite a lot of recovery down time sitting studying etc. Plus I try not to ride at all the day after leg workouts, not always succesful there though.....

Thanks peeps! :)

[Bodin]

Different Factors for different people, I guess, but here's my thoughts:

1. Sleep is the most important part of any recovery.

2. Seat height is a big issue. I'm so anal about it that I set every seat on every one of my bikes (except for my DH) exactly 79.5cm above the centre of my cranks and I even take cleat height into account...

3. The result of that study you mentioned confirm for me that I believe stretching is a form of recovery and should be done religiously after any moderate to heavy riding. On your days off, you should have a different set of stretches that revolve around muscle lengthening, as opposed to just maintenance.

4. Weight training? Pfffft... Look after your riding and it will look after you. Riding with proper technique develops stronger, leaner, more "aesthetic" legs than any form of exercise I'm aware of, so you'll never see me at a gym being actively involved in activities that intentionally cause massive joint stress and muscle damage.

Despite all this waffling on, I still do get chronically fatigued at times and the only thing I can do is rest up for a few days. Testament to this is the last week, where I struggled on the hills on Monday, took Tuesday and Wednesday off, felt like crap riding in to headwinds yesterday, but feel brilliant today.

Good luck dude.

[scratchy]

Wot Bodin said.

Stop farkin around on that Black Chase of yours with the seat height way down.

Sure it's OK for the muck around on, but it sounds like you're taking your cycling fitness seriously so set up your ride accordingly.

Also mix up the style of riding. With gears some days you should spin the hills while other days you should push in a gear higher.

Oh. eat something within 20min of exercise to aid recovery. (Bananas are good).

[Dumbellina]

The headwinds in Sydney have been shite (though the tailwind on the return journey is a helpful boost). This morning was particularly harsh coming into work.

I have been trying to increase my cadence rather than stomping my way through the wind.

[grumpy rooster]

2. Seat height is a big issue. I'm so anal about it that I set every seat on every one of my bikes (except for my DH) exactly 79.5cm above the centre of my cranks and I even take cleat height into account...


In your case, how did you come up with 79.5cm? ie. why this particular height?

[johnny]

4. Weight training? Pfffft... Look after your riding and it will look after you. Riding with proper technique develops stronger, leaner, more "aesthetic" legs than any form of exercise I'm aware of, so you'll never see me at a gym being actively involved in activities that intentionally cause massive joint stress and muscle damage.

I think I could form a good argument against that position. Plus, I don't go to the gym to get big, look good, I guess that's a bonus. I go for psychological reasons and overall health and ability.

Stop farkin around on that Black Chase of yours with the seat height way down.

Sure it's OK for the muck around on, but it sounds like you're taking your cycling fitness seriously so set up your ride accordingly.

Also mix up the style of riding. With gears some days you should spin the hills while other days you should push in a gear higher.

Yeah, as I said, I have to get my Felt XC bike fixed and will do exactly that.

Trust me, my dietry intake could not possibly be optimalised or better informed than it is ;)

[Bodin]

In your case, how did you come up with 79.5cm? ie. why this particular height?

Trial and error. I realised that my seat heights between bikes differed by as much as 2cm, so I decided to make them all the same. Over a period of a month, I tried a few different measurements and settled on the one that felt like the best combination of comfort and power across all bikes.

Been riding it since with no issues.:cool:

[grumpy rooster]

I was expecting some really technical explanation for it.

But good ole' trial and error wins again. :p

[Cave Dweller]

I had something similar on my ride to melbourne.

We rode an average of 110km per day (biggest day was 135km) for 6 days straight. At the end of the 4th day my knee started to get a bit sore, and by the last day i was in complete agonny (think at lunchtime, 40km to go, rubbing in nurofen gel, taking nurofen tablets, a panadene fort with a wild turkey chaser and it was still hurting while riding, but i had a flying pink elephant to keep me company :D ).

It was an over use injury, i changed the seat height a bit and it made it slightly better, but the only way to make it stop hurting is too lay of for a couple of days, give the muscles a chance to rebuild then get back to it.

[tombi]

try gettin some Skins. They r a pretty new product on the market and the are awesome for riding. My legs felt sore about an hour after fairly intense riding before i had the skins now they are awesome, they feel like new wen u step off the bike rather than tired and sore. Anyway, hope this helps.
TB

[THRILLHOUSE]

Hey mate i ride between 350-450km a week under a strict program from an accredited coach. Basically from what I can tell, If you do a really intense excersise do not do the same type again the next day.. i,e no strength training two days in a row. Getting the correct recovery is essential, Although from reading what you have said you seem to all have this sussed out.
It definately sounds like you might be working the wrong muscles too hard because of your position. Maybe it would be wise idea to take a two week break from the bike until you get your XC machine up and running. You aren't going to lose all your fitness in this time, but you will certainly come back fresher and hopefully keener to improve.

Hope you work it all out mate

[Butch]

after a physical workout the body's muscles are serverley depleted of glycogen , wats needing is rest and a substancial diet with high carb's protiens and lil fats , also the lycra elite athletes wear to increase glycogen flow to the muscles a good 10 to 15 min. warmup and cool down are vitial to an athletes work flow plan