Ode to Donald 'War Crime?' Rumsfeld.

[Atomizer]

Tomorrow, Thursday, November 17, will see the Adelaide CBD locked down for the arrival of the architect of the murder of a 100,000+ innocent people (http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6596) in Iraq since it's illegal invasion; US 'Defence' Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

And for what and why?

The CDB will be a day of barriers protecting war-mongers from pacifists...ooh, the irony.

What song would you dedicate to Donnie?



Here's mine.

'Starship Troopers', by Ozi Batla.



Lost in deep cover,
“Dear John,” said his lover’s last letter
Emptied a full clip to feel better,
Slipped a rung on Jacob's ladder,
Desert boot camp deserter got stung by death adder,

Don’t get mad get even madder,
A10 tank killer fodder,
Interrogate? Why bother…
My brother for a last cigarette, no please not yet
One last dance, lest we regret

Look me in the eye, GI, and tell me you’re not tired,
Tired to death sir, tired till it hurts
Now this shit couldn’t get much worse

Well it may…

We march at the break of day
And come what may, rules of engagement say
We will stand to the very last, shrapnel blast

A casket goes home….
Sons and daughters wrapped in stars and stripes to keep ‘em warm
(background voice “Give peace a chance…that doesn’t mean anything”
“It’s like give peace a chance”)

Under red orange dawn we draw the line
And those on the other side must stand and fight
Tracers like fourth of July in the night
Lighting up like Hiroshima…
The perfect sight

**** CHORUS******
I’m a Starship Trooper
This is my letter to dad, transferred from Saigon to Baghdad
And now I’m dead…
An allied soldier, with skin boils from Ebola
I’ll bring you back a souvenir of what we stole
Repeat

I was only nineteen
Joined for the pay packet
Now my full metal jacket won’t take one more hit
I don’t give two shits about oil interests
But depleted uranium, just gave Joe a fit

Captain Kurtz said, “fight till the hurt stops“
Yet all I can see is burned crops
And mates shell-shocked
Morphine under lock and key
Their AK’s talking to my M16

Pray for friendly fire
Haven’t seen a priest, but plenty of funeral pyres
Triage nurse is dying
My name in the paper
Next to a faceless dictator
And another flag to drape
Hey yo, check

Here’s the commanding officer
A total mess again
Crying in the mess tent
How to make mice or mince meat of his men….

****CHORUS*****

Repeat

I’m a Starship Trooper
This is my letter to dad
Transferred from Saigon to Baghdad
And now I’m dead
An allied soldier…………………..

[FR Drew]

Disposable Heroes: Metallica.

Has ever been thus that those calling the shots aint in the line of fire.

too much wine to remember the one from Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon with: "forward they said and the front rank died and the lines on the map moved from side to side"

Hopefully, come next election , neither the Australian or the US public will be as stupid.

[johnny]

I'd prefer to give him his last rites.

[NeBoS]

Donald Rumsfeld. What a name - you can associate so much with this name, for all the wrong reasons.

Is hate a strong word?

[toodles]

*turn on your sarcasm detectors*

Yep, that's right folks... the world would have been a better place had there been no outside intervention into Iraq. I mean, OMG the place wasn't instantly the pinnacle of perfection and shining example of true democracy and utopia. Damn those Yankees and their oil-thirsty, blood-soaked hands...

Shame on them... It's just soooo obvious they had ulterior motives and were just going in for some shooting practise.

[johnny]

*Turn on sarcasm detecters*

Of course we can go in with the minimum amount of men and forces. Because once we depose Sadam, everyone will ply us with flowers and song and the peace will take care of itself.

And that IS what we're going in there for, liberation......oh and WMD's.

[toodles]

Maybe the rest of the world could have given more assistance, instead of protecting their own vested interests under the guise of assuming the moral high ground ;)

[Atomizer]

Maybe the rest of the world could have given more assistance, instead of protecting their own vested interests under the guise of assuming the moral high ground ;)

Perhaps if the UN sanctioned the invasion..I mean..liberation of Iraq, and the world at large truly believed in the existence of it having WMD's (despite none ever being found my inspectors who combed the country for years), and that Saddam was in fact a terrorist threat and not just another despotic tryrannt like all the others the US has helped into power then the mess that exists in Iraq may have been a little easier to mop up.

Is Iraq, and the world at large, any better off now that the US and it's lapdog's in the Coalition of the Willing have poked this big, crooked stick into a hornet's nest? Or has this travesty of international law merely made the world more unstable and terrorist attacks even more likely??

[notb4dinner]

I think your sarcasm detector needs adjusting, try winding the sensitivity up a bit. ;)

[Ryan]

*Turn on sarcasm detecters*

Of course we can go in with the minimum amount of men and forces. Because once we depose Sadam, everyone will ply us with flowers and song and the peace will take care of itself.

And that IS what we're going in there for, liberation......oh and WMD's.

Well duh, how many conflicts can you name where the invaded / occupied nation haven't greeted the invaders with open arms (France in WW2 doesn't count ;) )

My lines to Rummy;

Train of Thought - Counter War Terrorism

We're meant to be living in a country of democracy
But tell me, how could a million people march and not be seen?
Fuck a war, to unwritten laws and policies
Over a government quick to make unnescessary enemies
Adversaries turn civiliand to memories
The lucky ones escape to our shores as refugees
Only to be sent back to sea, drowned or placed in penetentiaries
Another casualty of this brutal Bush regime
Fuck biological and chemical warfare
Fuck terrorists and Saddam, Bush and Blair
But most of all, Fuck you Howard any your team of squires
For putting my entire country in the line of fire

Majority of opposition, obviously not sufficient
Indecisions, concerning hate-fuelled missions
They brush aside our views and label us uninformed
But there's no way to convince me of these reasons for war
'Cos you're a weapon of mass corruption and people know your function
The only thing you care about's economy construction
Rely on war, you're hiding more objectives
Forget weapon inspections, it's oil on your checklist
Patriotic mannerisms suffocating the truth
Build 'em up with guns and teach the children to shoot
Now you're a soldier, we offer medals to cover the blood
And engrave stone walls for mates left in the mud

I tell you now there aint no chance that you'll catch me on the battlefield
I'd rather go to jail than to die to save a Happy Meal
I rap and build high stakes of mind and find I elevate
My thought patterns and complex human rights, a cause I celebrate
They delegate these pointless chess games, concepts explained
In the simplest of terms to keep the herd confused to the next day
People chant the war is rotten, seems our views are forgotten
It's insignificant, 'cos Johnny's keen for Bush to knob him
Whatever way you want to see it, peace should be the mission
I don't care whether you're Hindu, Buddhist, Islamic or Christian
It's the vision of an entire world lost through holocaust
Got me screaming pleading these wars have gotta stop

You try and justify prevention of weapons of mass destruction
But you're making any weapon that you want in mass production
All I'm hearing are these propaganda contradictions
And all fact is hidden, resulting in the cause of all this world division
Buying our lives with promises of weapons supplies
Trying to rationalise a quest that most despise
I'm seeing dark skies, from this Iraqi freedom mission
Peace won't come from war, if only Johnny would listen
So we joined the coaltion, now Australia are aggressors
Something's gotta be done, but surely not these drastic measures
So you sit back and watch it all on your TV
Desensitised to war throughout the media frenzy
And the youth scream "No more! We refuse, we resist, we oppose this war"
And there's no way we'll fight against our will
They keep yelling "Murder Murder Murder!" and "Kill Kill Kill!"

[toodles]

Is Iraq, and the world at large, any better off now that the US and it's lapdog's in the Coalition of Willing have poked this big, crooked stick in a hornet's nest?

Yes, I think in the long term it will be.

While ignorance is bliss, and I'm sure we were all a lot happier living our blissfully peaceful little lives before the hornet's nest got stirred up by the US, our indifference to the goings-on in other countries appalls me sometimes. Just because it looks like a shitfight is happening over there now IT'S SAFE ENOUGH for news crews to broadcast what is happening, doesn't mean it was all roses beforehand.

[johnny]

Maybe the rest of the world could have given more assistance, instead of protecting their own vested interests under the guise of assuming the moral high ground ;)
Maybe if the US wasn't going in to protect their own interests this may have happened. ;)

So, when is the US going to liberate the DPRK, Myanmah, Zimbabwe etc.?

Bottom line is, Iraq was extremely important to the US in the post Cold War era of production power and strategic energy reserves. Why do you think China, India and the US are racing each other around the world trying to buy as many oil fields and processing rights?

Do you really think a nation is going to spend hundreds of billions of dollars and have thousands of soldiers killed and inevitably risk their own hold on the presidency all to make another nations citizens safer?? Come on, I think you'll be aware that international relations don't work like that. The Americans have A. Increased their aggregate power by containing the second largest proven oil supply in the world (China is the US's next big challenger, they are growing/developing due to their production capacities. China's production is run predominately by oil. Pretty straight forward strategic stuff). B. America has increased its prestige, their power was challenged by the UN and other nations yet America still succeeded in launching the operation. This shows that America has both capacity and resolve. Therfore America's threats will be taken more seriously and other nations will be adverse to opposition because they know that America will do what it wants. C. The US gianed a strong strategic foothold outside of Israel in the middle east. They had to get their bases out of Saudi Arabia (looks like bin LAden won that round) but still needed a strong presence in the region. Now they have it and actively compell other neighbouring nations to act in their favour.

Nations act strategically, not morally.

[Atomizer]

Hopefully, come next election , neither the Australian or the US public will be as stupid.

You have too little faith in the Murdoch press' abiltity to socially condition the masses into an ignorant stupor.

Mainstream media's pro-Government propaganda is omnipotent ma'man particularly when Labor, as with the US Democrats, don't have a leader people believe in.

People who voted the likes of Bush and Howard into power aren't stupid en-masse. Just gullible thanks to a limited media that does the Government's PR and that isn't questioned by those manipulated by it. How many more Howard lies and back-flips on election promises will it take for people to see him as the deceitful bastard(s) he and his government are? (Rhetorical question.)

[Atomizer]

So, when is the US going to liberate the DPRK, Myanmah, Zimbabwe etc.?

...and where was the US and Australia when 350,000 East Timorese where being butchered? Training, arming, and supporting the Indonesian Kopassus thugs who committed this genocidal brutallity 600km off the coast of Darwin.

Suharto, another US creation, murdered more of his own people (over 1,000,000) than Saddam and with full US approval. Why? Because he was their 'friend' and friends, even evil, corrupt, murderous ones, stick together.

[toodles]

So, when is the US going to liberate the DPRK, Myanmah, Zimbabwe etc.?

After the international response to Iraq? I'm sure they're rushing in to help... (no I don't actually believe that by the way).

Nations act strategically, not morally.

I agree 100%. I don't believe the US was acting out of morality at all. But I haven't heard anybody else come up with any ideas. I suppose we should have left the country the way it was?


People who voted the likes of Bush and Howard into power aren't stupid en-masse. Just gullible thanks to a limited media that acts does the Government's PR and that isn't questioned by those manipulated by it

Ummm... no. Simply put the two-party system means you pick between the lesser of the two evils. Without a decent alternative, people vote for the leader who offers the biggest carrot. "But if we had Beazley/Latham as a leader we would never have followed the US like little lap dogs!!!"... Have you ever heard an opposition leader agree with the governing party (apart from when they're voting on a pay rise for themselves)? It's a lot easier to say how you would be doing things differently when you're not in a position to do so. How many times has a party been elected in, only to forfeit on a promise to reverse the previous government's rulings?

[johnny]

I agree 100%. I don't believe the US was acting out of morality at all. But I haven't heard anybody else come up with any ideas. I suppose we should have left the country the way it was?

No, but look at the US track record since WW2. They fucked up Korea, Vietnam, Nicuragua, Somalia, Afghanistan, where were they in Rwanda etc. etc. They do not have the ability to carry these things through to an acceptable end. I think that the current situation in Iraq is testimony to this.

The Americans did not go in to "fix" the country, therefore who's to say they won't make it worse? What about the recognition that America hold a lot of responsibility for the problem in the first place.

If they were going in to "fix" things, I'd be all for it. If it was run by the EU or UN, I'd be all for it. It was done by an inept, egotistical nation/admin that was looking for relative gains over other nations. That's the reality. The situation in Iraq today and the current geopolitical climate reflect this.

[rowanr]

my song would be "you're all wankers that don't know what you're talking about", and its by me. i think some people here should stop making up facts to suit themselves and stop jumping on the "fuck bush" bandwagon. where do you pull these rumours from anyway? the lefty next to you? i'm glad we took saddam down- its about bloody time. i was considering joining the army myself and going and finding the bastard.
i agree with toodles. someone here has some sense in them

[johnny]

my song would be "you're all wankers that don't know what you're talking about", and its by me. i think some people here should stop making up facts to suit themselves and stop jumping on the "fuck bush" bandwagon. where do you pull these rumours from anyway? the lefty next to you? i'm glad we took saddam down- its about bloody time. i was considering joining the army myself and going and finding the bastard.
i agree with toodles. someone here has some sense in them
Yeah well you know what, I get my facts from my 6 years experience in the army with varying roles, plus my four years of study of international security. BTW, I'm also one of the higher students of this discpline at my uni.

The fact that you view things as "left and right" means you're already way out of your depth.

Also, if you don't want me to ban you, you will stop saying things like "You're all wankers and you don't know what you're talking about". If you cannot discuss things like an adult, don't discuss things with adults.

Oh, and I assume you actually have an argument that betters our "rumours" on this subject?

[toodles]

No, but look at the US track record since WW2. They fucked up Korea, Vietnam, Nicuragua, Somalia, Afghanistan, where were they in Rwanda etc. etc. They do not have the ability to carry these things through to an acceptable end. I think that the current situation in Iraq is testimony to this.

The Americans did not go in to "fix" the country, therefore who's to say they won't make it worse? What about the recognition that America hold a lot of responsibility for the problem in the first place.

If they were going in to "fix" things, I'd be all for it. If it was run by the EU or UN, I'd be all for it. It was done by an inept, egotistical nation/admin that was looking for relative gains over other nations. That's the reality. The situation in Iraq today and the current geopolitical climate reflect this.

They went in and deposed an iron-fisted dictator that tortured and killed thousands and thousands of his own people. Yes they did it to secure ACCESS to oil (they're not stealing the oil, the UN is making sure of that). Yes, it could have been done a lot better and for more altruistic intentions but I don't see anybody putting anything into the suggestion box.

[johnny]

They went in and deposed an iron-fisted dictator that tortured and killed thousands and thousands of his own people. That was a result, not the motivation, but then again, how many people are dying in Iraq this time 8 years ago as there are today? We don't know because the US refuses to keep a civillian body count. Admitedly, this is a hard thing to do, but it's never stopped them in other wars. Once again, Sadam is not the worst or only oppressor in the world, he was strategically important to the Americans and that's the only thing that mattered to them. Hence the bullshit stories of WMD and al qaeda links. Yes they did it to secure ACCESS to oil (they're not stealing the oil, the UN is making sure of that). Just like th UN controlled the oil for food program? The ownership of the oil is not the issue, the rights for extraction and processing and transport are. This is where the bulk of the cost comes from (if not all). He who controls this controls the cost.. The US doesn't want to own it as much as dictate the terms of use to disadvantage their competitors. This is a really big distinction that most who oppose the "oil argument" don't understand. Yes, it could have been done a lot better and for more altruistic intentions but I don't see anybody putting anything into the suggestion box.
So we take an option with inevitable failures and inherent dangers simply because there is nothing else?

Let's also remember that the CIA itself has said that the invaison of Iraq has increased the export of Islamic terrorism around the world and that Iraq is now the biggest terrorist threat in the world (because it has given motivation, experience and coordination to the Islamic terrorist effort. This has negated the effects of invading Afghanistan. War on Terror? I don't thinks so). I can dig up that CIA release if needed to be referenced.

[toodles]

That was a result, not the motivation, but then again, how many people are dying in Iraq this time 8 years ago as there are today?

Hmmm... 8 years ago? I don't know. But 18 years ago 60,000 - 100,000 Kurds were killed by Saddam's nerve gas attacks. Their mass graves were uncovered 8 years ago.

So we take an option with inevitable failures and inherent dangers simply because there is nothing else?

What inevitable failures? I see inevitable success that has been hastened by the removal of Saddam, albeit through poorly executed means.

Let's also remember that the CIA itself has said that the invaison of Iraq has increased the export of Islamic terrorism around the world and that Iraq is now the biggest terrorist threat in the world (because it has given motivation, experience and coordination to the Islamic terrorist effort.

Yes, terrorism in the West has increased. There has also been an increase in terrorism inside Iraq against some groups. But now it is being policed and punished, not rewarded, disguised, covered-up and hidden away.

[toodles]

That was a result, not the motivation, but then again, how many people are dying in Iraq this time 8 years ago as there are today?

4,000 children a month apparently due to UN trade sanctions imposed on Iraq following their invasion of Kuwait.

[Atomizer]

They went in and deposed an iron-fisted dictator that tortured and killed thousands and thousands of his own people.

An iron-fisted dictator whose attrocities against his own people the US didn't seem to care too much about when they were 'friends'.

The US doesn't, historically, care too much for human rights abuses, unlessthese abuses are perpetrated by countries hostile to US interests. Then it's bad and it must be punished. But if you let the US rape your mineral assets, your oil or gas deposits, or provide it with slave/sweat-shop labour to make it's consumer goods, you can pretty much committ any crime against your own or other people and have it rarely make the news. Seems somewhat hypocritical to me.

Here's a photo of Donnie and an old friend. Around the time the US gave Iraq chemical weapons as a present to use how it saw fit. Nice.

[johnny]

Hmmm... 8 years ago? I don't know. But 18 years ago 60,000 - 100,000 Kurds were killed by Saddam's nerve gas attacks. Their mass graves were uncovered 8 years ago. Um, no. Only 5 000 Kurds were killed by Sadams attacks on Halabja. This was done with French supplied helicopters and mirage fighters and with armorments supplied by the US. The US also suported the Iraqi mustard gas attacks on the Iranian army by providing satilite photography of Iranian positions and by giving wheather details for a successful attack.

What inevitable failures? I see inevitable success that has been hastened by the removal of Saddam, albeit through poorly executed means.
Failure of the multi-lateral security system of the UN, the failure of international law, the failure to secure the peace, the failure to decrease terrorism in the region, the failure to allow the Iraqi people a greater say in their future (the US wanted to appoint those who would appoint electoral candidates from approved caucuses. They directly attempted to direct the outcome of democracy....kind of oxymoronic. If it wasn't for the resolve of al Sistani, this is what would have happened).

Admitedly i use the term inevitable loosley. I see it as an inevitability judged of historical experience.


Yes, terrorism in the West has increased. There has also been an increase in terrorism inside Iraq against some groups. But now it is being policed and punished, not rewarded, disguised, covered-up and hidden away. The point I was trying to make is that the world is measurably less safe due to the invasion. I say measurably because the research has been done by the CIA. They are finding that due to the motivation and experience gained in Iraq, the capability and intent of global terror groups has been greately heightened. As for terrorism in Iraq, before we only had state terrorism (and Ansar al Islam, but they were attacking Sadam and the Kurds). Now we have both, did you see the 170 odd torture victims of the new Iraqi regime they found yesterday? Also, let's not forget Abu Ghraib, the use of white phos (the Australian army refuses to use it as an anti-personel device because of its capabilities and because it is essentially "chemical warfare", yet the Americans do not take this position) and the profiteering and mates rates that is going on post invasion.

The Who's "Won't get fooled again" comes to mind:

"Meet the new boss, he's the same as the old boss".

[toodles]

An iron-fisted dictator whose attocities against his own people the US didn't seem to care too much about when they were 'friends'.

The US doesn't, historically, care too much for human rights abuses, unlessthese abuses are perpetrated by countries hostile to US interests. Then it's bad and it must be punished. But if you let the US rape your mineral assets, your oil or gas deposits, or slave labour, you cannot pretty much any crime against your people and have it rarely make the news. Seems somewhat hypocritical to me.

Then maybe some other countries should step up to the plate and object? There is evil in the indifference of good men after all... The US isn't the sole international policeman after all and it shouldn't be. The UN has a job to do, and ironically the US has proved the UN impotent by intervening where the UN should have, against the UN's wishes. If the UN was doing it's job the invasion shouldn't have happened because (a) the US shouldn't have been allowed to invade without consensur, and (b) because the UN should have done it for them ages ago.

[Atomizer]

Then maybe some other countries should step up to the plate and object? There is evil in the indifference of good men after all... The US isn't the sole international policeman after all and it shouldn't be. The UN has a job to do, and ironically the US has proved the UN impotent by intervening where the UN should have, against the UN's wishes. If the UN was doing it's job the invasion shouldn't have happened because (a) the US shouldn't have been allowed to invade without consensur, and (b) because the UN should have done it for them ages ago.

I fully agree.

[Ryan]

Then maybe some other countries should step up to the plate and object? There is evil in the indifference of good men after all... The US isn't the sole international policeman after all and it shouldn't be. The UN has a job to do, and ironically the US has proved the UN impotent by intervening where the UN should have, against the UN's wishes. If the UN was doing it's job the invasion shouldn't have happened because (a) the US shouldn't have been allowed to invade without consensur, and (b) because the UN should have done it for them ages ago.

Why exactly should the UN have intervened in Iraq? It isn't their job to be the world's policemen either or else as johnny has mentioned, we wouldn't have the DPRK, Burma, Zibabwe etc.

The UN's assessment of the threat that Saddam posed militarily and the status of his weapons programs was proved to be exactly spot on, he wasn't a credible threat to anyone else in the world, there was no more pressing need for him to be removed from power than any other of the worlds dictators.

While I admit that giving a previously opressed people a democratic voice is a good thing, I don't believe that you're pro-war for this reason. I think you just like it when shit blows up ;)

[johnny]

Then maybe some other countries should step up to the plate and object? There is evil in the indifference of good men after all... The US isn't the sole international policeman after all and it shouldn't be. The UN has a job to do, and ironically the US has proved the UN impotent by intervening where the UN should have, against the UN's wishes. If the UN was doing it's job the invasion shouldn't have happened because (a) the US shouldn't have been allowed to invade without consensur, and (b) because the UN should have done it for them ages ago.
Sorry mate, but that opinion is redundant (please don't take that as arrogantly as it sounds).

The UN is only made up of its member countries, therefore the actions of the UN is the action of countries. It's not as if the UN actually makes any decisions concerning these (security) matters, that's done by member countries and votes. America stiffles much action in the Middle East through its veto when ever some one wants to pass a motion on Israel. The US and USSR constantly vetoed each other during the cold war, Russia and China are currently vetoing any action against Iran. Why do they do this? Strategy, no other reason.

The UN is a result of its members, it is not autonomous to the state centered system the world works under (global anarchy/there is no global rules or government, it's a free for all). Blame the actors, not the structure.

[johnny]

The UN's assessment of the threat that Saddam posed militarily and the status of his weapons programs was proved to be exactly spot on, he wasn't a credible threat to anyone else in the world, there was no more pressing need for him to be removed from power than any other of the worlds dictators.

Another excellent point that lends weight to the argument of strategic/relative gain on the American's behalf.

[toodles]

Um, no. Only 5 000 Kurds were killed by Sadams attacks on Halabja.

Most recently, Kenneth Roth, director of Human Rights Watch, has referred to "100,000 Kurdish men and boys machine-gunned to death during the 1988 Anfal genocide." (Roth, "Show Trials Are Not the Solution to Saddam's Heinous Reign", The Globe and Mail, 18 July 2003.)

According to HRW/ME, "at least fifty thousand rural Kurds ... died in Anfal alone, and very possibly the real figure was twice that number ... All told, the total number of Kurds killed over the decade since the Barzani men were taken from their homes is well into six figures." "On the basis of extensive interviews in Kurdistan and perusal of extant Iraqi documents, Shoresh Resoul, a meticulous Kurdish researcher ... conservatively estimated that 'between 60,000 and 110,000' died during [al-]Majid's Kurdish mandate," i.e., beginning shortly before Anfal and ending shortly afterwards. (Randal, After Such Knowledge ..., p. 214.) Other Kurdish estimates are even higher. "When Kurdish leaders met with Iraqi government officials in the wake of the spring 1991 uprising, they raised the question of the Anfal dead and mentioned a figure of 182,000 -- a rough extrapolation based on the number of destroyed villages. Ali Hassan al-Majid reportedly jumped to his feet in a rage when the discussion took this turn. 'What is this exaggerated figure of 182,000?' he is said to have asked. 'It couldn't have been more than 100,000' -- as if this somehow mitigated the catastrophe that he and his subordinates had visited on the Iraqi Kurds." (Iraq's Crime of Genocide, pp. 14, 230.)


Failure of the multi-lateral security system of the UN, the failure of international law,

These failures LED to the invasion. They did not occur as a result of it.

the failure to secure the peace, the failure to decrease terrorism in the region,

It has not ended yet.

the failure to allow the Iraqi people a greater say in their future (the US wanted to appoint those who would appoint electoral candidates from approved caucuses. They directly attempted to direct the outcome of democracy....kind of oxymoronic. If it wasn't for the resolve of al Sistani, this is what would have happened) .

But it did happen, did it not? That's right - they voted, something that in itself is unheard of in recent history. A minor victory in my books.


As for terrorism in Iraq, before we only had state terrorism (and Ansar al Islam, but they were attacking Sadam and the Kurds). Now we have both, did you see the 170 odd torture victims of the new Iraqi regime they found yesterday? Also, let's not forget Abu Ghraib, the use of white phos (the Australian army refuses to use it as an anti-personel device because of its capabilities and because it is essentially "chemical warfare", yet the Americans do not take this position) and the profiteering and mates rates that is going on post invasion.

The Who's "Won't get fooled again" comes to mind:

"Meet the new boss, he's the same as the old boss".

So state terrorism was ok but now it affects someone else (who can fight back admittedly) it's more of a problem? White phosporous is an incedinary device widely used by military agencies world-wide. I hardly believe it's an excessively lethal chemical weapon on the scale of nerve gas.

[toodles]

I think you just like it when shit blows up ;)

Burning is acceptable too :)

Sorry mate, but that opinion is redundant (please don't take that as arrogantly as it sounds).

The UN is only made up of its member countries, therefore the actions of the UN is the action of countries. It's not as if the UN actually makes any decisions concerning these (security) matters, that's done by member countries and votes. America stiffles much action in the Middle East through its veto when ever some one wants to pass a motion on Israel. The US and USSR constantly vetoed each other during the cold war, Russia and China are currently vetoing any action against Iran. Why do they do this? Strategy, no other reason.

The UN is a result of its members, it is not autonomous to the state centered system the world works under (global anarchy/there is no global rules or government, it's a free for all). Blame the actors, not the structure.


There is a moral obligation for somebody to do something though. The US weren't the best candidate but they had the resources to go through with it. I would have prefer the UN to do the job, but for all the reasons you mentioned above, they're fuckin useless.

[Adrian]

Sweet dreams Mr Rumsfield.


Green Day (http://www.lyriczz.com/artistsongs.php?artist=Green Day)

Platypus (I Hate You)
Your rise and fall
Back up against the wall
What goes around is coming back and haunting you
It's time to quit
Cause you ain't worth the shit
Under my shoes or the piss on the ground

No one loves you and you know it
Don't pretend that you enjoy it or you don't care
Cause now I wouldn't lie or tell
you all the things you want to hear
I HATE YOU I HATE YOU I HATE YOU I HATE YOU

I heard you're sick
Sucked on that cancer stick
A throbbing tumor and a radiation high
Shit out of luck
And now your time is up
It brings me pleasure just to know you're going to die

Dickhead, fuckface, cock smoking, mother fucking,
Asshole, dirty twat, waste of semen, I hope you die HEY

Red eye, code blue
I'd like to strangle you
And watch your eyes bulge right out of your skull
When you go down
Head first into the ground
I'll stand above you just to piss on your grave

[johnny]

Gunned to death, maybe, you said But 18 years ago 60,000 - 100,000 Kurds were killed by Saddam's nerve gas attacks. and that's what I went on. I will not ague Sadam's brutality throughout his reign, but I will argue that it was done with implicit American approval.

These failures LED to the invasion. They did not occur as a result of it.
I disagree. The comment was "If the UN does not act, it becomes redundant". This is a self fulfilling prophecy. America's power makes the UN redundant itself. But look at it this way:

"If you don't do what we want, you are redundant"
=
"You are already redundant because our power either allows us to dictate your actions or we just do what we want anyway"

By America puting forward this ultimatum, they effectively MADE the UN redundant because the only two options were "Our way with you" or "Our way without you".

Now, you can say that the UN should have taken Sadam out. Duuuuude, c'mon, they were protected by the US until 1990, the US wanted them there until they invaded Kuwait. How was the UN going to do anything when the strongest country in the world were using them as puppets? Let's also look at what happened when they did invade Kuwait. The UN sanctioned an action against Sadam, the UN placed great trade and travel sanctions on the Ba'ath Regime, the UN sanction the enforcement of no fly zones to protect the Kurds and Shia. The UN supervised the destruction of Iraqs WMD scheme. The UN in 2000 gave the most accurate analysis of Iraq's wMD program pre-invasion.

Let's play that song again, I love it!

1. The UN did not/could not not do anything against Sadam when he had the Anfal campaign and the war against Iran because America was supporting them.

2. The Un supported the 1991 Gulf War.

3. The Un supported sanctions against the regime.

3. The UN supported and sanctioned the enforcement of no fly zones.

4. The Un had the most accurate reading of Iraqi capabilities before the 2001 invasion.

[johnny]

There is a moral obligation for somebody to do something though. The US weren't the best candidate but they had the resources to go through with it. I would have prefer the UN to do the job, but for all the reasons you mentioned above, they're fuckin useless.
I think that about sums the whole discussion up, well said.

[johnny]

So state terrorism was ok but now it affects someone else (who can fight back admittedly) it's more of a problem? White phosporous is an incedinary device widely used by military agencies world-wide. I hardly believe it's an excessively lethal chemical weapon on the scale of nerve gas.
Never said state terrorism was fine at all, I was just saying that was the only terror in the country before the US invaded, look at it now. It's exporting itself throughout the region.

I'm fully aware of what white phos is, I've palyed with it before. I'm also aware that many armies use it, most for incendiary reasons, not anti-personel. By definition, white phos is a chemical weapon.

The US is NOT a signatory to the convention on chemical weapons. It reserves the right to use chemical, biological and nuclear waepons to suit its purposes.

Apparently other nations aren't afforded this freedom.

*edit, I'm having trouble backing this last claim up, give me a minute.....

[toodles]

Gunned to death, maybe, you said and that's what I went on. I will not ague Sadam's brutality throughout his reign, but I will argue that it was done with implicit American approval.

Whoops, sorry my bad. Still I got the methodology wrong but not the results. And "implicit" approval is a jump in my books.

Regardless, the UN has failed time and again to bring an end to these atrocities. The US may be as guilty as sin, but their recent actions have had more positives than many critics are willing to admit. I'm certainly not pro-US, but I am in agreement with the results of the invasion. Dictator deposed, foundations are being constructed for a new Iraqi democracy. Too many people are being over-critical of the results IMO, expecting that it was just going to be a simple change of management.

Democracy is a completely new system to these people. Teething problems are inevitable, insurgent groups will take advantage of the raw infrastructure, crime will flourish temporarily and people will die. But change is inevitable, and some changes are better off happening sooner rather than later.

[toodles]

I'm fully aware of what white phos is, I've palyed with it before. I'm also aware that many armies use it, most for incendiary reasons, not anti-personel. By definition, white phos is a chemical weapon.

Theoretically speaking, a white phos grenade can be inserted into a 3" mortar if it is done correctly ;) Just expect some none too subtle results.

[johnny]

Whoops, sorry my bad. Still I got the methodology wrong but not the results. And "implicit" approval is a jump in my books. Maybe tacit approval would be a better way of puting it. If nation A. supports nation B. then there is at least acceptance of what country B. is doing by country A.

Then if you add military and logistical support to that, as the Americans did, I'd suggest that's actually explicit support. You have to remember that the Iranians that Sadam was fighting were only in power because they kicked the Yanks out.

Regardless, the UN has failed time and again to bring an end to these atrocities. The US may be as guilty as sin, but their recent actions have had more positives than many critics are willing to admit.......
Yep, I'll agree to that with qualifications. The UN is a failure because of the Republican senators voting against Woodrow Wilson's Article X for the League of Nations (I've talked about this a couple of times before) and because the actions of its member states. It is sorely in need of reform, but then you get the same problems as we have in its current state.

The more powerful countries will only sign up if they get to preserve their power, yet this makes it just as anarchical as no UN at all. A UN without the greatest national powers is useless and we go back to an anarchical postion. Houston, we have paradox!

Politics is all about having the power to make the decisions. Internationaly it's about having this power over other countries. This is the realist pradigm and unfortunately an accurate description of today's world.

I think we both agree that it's far too early to call the shots on Iraq, I just don't want preventative wafare to become acceptable in the world for countries will twist and fabricate evidence of a threat in order to invade and exert/claim power. Just as the US has done with Iraq.

Pre-emptive war = knowiung that some one is about to attack you, so you hit them first. Legal

Preventative war = attacking another state in order to prevent them from becoming powerful enough to threaten you. Illegal.

Pitty not everyone on here can discuss two opposing opinions as civily and constructively as this!:rolleyes:

[Atomizer]

Pre-emptive war = knowiung that some one is about to attack you, so you hit them first. Legal

Preventative war = attacking another state in order to prevent them from becoming powerful enough to threaten you. Illegal.

Was the invasion of Iraq either?

[johnny]

No, it was overt aggression in my books.

For it to be either the American admin had to believe that Iraq threatened America's national security. I don't believe this for a second. Neither did Colin Powel or Condi Rice in August 2001. They both said that Sadam poses no threat outside of his own borders and is adequetly contained by the US and GB via UN sanctioned no fly zones and earlier inspections.

If you want to see/hear these words come out of their mouth, check out Farenheit 9/11.

(I so wish I did not have to site that movie, it's a load of shit, but this footage is on there).

[Atomizer]

No, it was overt aggression in my books.

Seconded.

Here's a topical link I just came across: http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005/11/15/war-without-rules/
George Monbiot » War Without Rules

[HunterDevourer]

too much wine to remember the one from Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon with: "forward they said and the front rank died and the lines on the map moved from side to side"


Pink Floyd - Us and Them

It is good for morals that the actions of the US forces in Iraq are restricted or forced to try and fix things (though the successes or seriousness of the attempts remains to be seen). It's good for morality that society would definately not allow the forces to take on anti-insurgency strategies such as annihilation, johnny should know what I mean. Though perhaps there are some less brutal strategies being used, keeping the media in their areas to prevent outside knowledge.

[johnny]

For the benefit of those who don't do the same subjects as myself:

Anihilation = destroying the insurgency and anyone who entertains the idea of supporting them physically or morally. This is a very brutal and destructive way of dealing with the issue. Financially cheap, politically expensive. Modern democracies can rarely get support from their own electorate for such actions.

[RCOH]

Job interview situation:

"what's your degree & where did you get it"

"I have a Degree in Everything from UF, a toowoomba based online institution"

[johnny]

Job interview situation:

"what's your degree & where did you get it"

"I have a Degree in Everything from UF, a toowoomba based online institution"
ROFL:D WTF!!??:confused:

RaCndOm!H.

[wombat]

ROFL:D WTF!!??:confused:

RaCndOm!H.
Psst: UF = University of Farkin......;)

[RCOH]

I just meant that there are a lot of intelligent people on this site & I am learning quite a bit about a myriad of topics.

I know it is OT, but you know :)

[johnny]

Sorry, I don't have a UF degree on Intelligent Humour........:o

[bowzaa]

why dedicate a song to him?
i'd rather just throw eggs or pies or something at the guy
then again that'd be a waste of pie
mmm pie....:p

[exvitermini]

Sorry, I don't have a UF degree on Intelligent Humour........:o

dont worry johnny you seem to have a degree in everythings else that if you were in need of a job they wouldnt mind looking that small problem...

[DYJK]

My song dedimacation to Donald ...

FRENZAL RHOMB - "Stand Up And Be C*nted"

Freedom of expression is imperative to me
I call on everyone to run naked though the city streets
Sedatives I know you wanna
mersyndol and marijuana:)
too much hydro drives you round the bend
says me a my f*cked up friends
you know its time to stand up
stand up and be c*nted

Serious thought put into that!

[Ronin]

Give Peace A Chance :eek:

[Wattsy]

Heres mine, posted before but this is a definat dedication to him:(and the aus goverment)

Hilltop Hood's - Walk On

I speak from the heart, but only when I drink,
And I only ever sleep when I’m too tired to think,
Restlessness, the reaction that you will find,
From stress I guess and having a compassionate mind,
I worry bout the machine of progress, ain’t no stopping it,
The forest we destroy and the world we build on top of it,
Mercenaries get paid salaries to slaughter,
Girls obsessed with body image find calories in water,
Nurses comfort seven-year-old casualties of mortar,
A peasant’s daughter caught up in a war for a border,
And at home we treat our refugees like criminals,
Detention centres just a catch phrase for a minimal
Security prison, we drive gold trimmed cars,
Down the road an Afghani kid grows up behind bars,
And we wonder why they hate the west,
When we treat them like they’re second-class citizens at best,
We’re all pawns in a game, the USAs miniatures,
Aussie foreign policy with George Bush’s signature,
Peeps die for a watch and blue chip stock,
Did they do Big Pop or was it two bit cops,
I wanna sue kid rock for making rednecks think they’re hip hop,
Wanna swallow people’s pain and spit it from the hilltop,
Wanna affect change in the subjects that we talk on,
Connect strangers, work together and walk on.

Polluting airways, mankind strays with no reforming,
So slap on that sunscreen and enjoy the global warming,
Cos ignoring world issues is what we all do best,
Just like Aussie politicians shoe shining for the U.S.
To save losing face, no thoughts to the fumes that trace,
Our sky lines and clogs our seas we swimming in consumer waste,
The fumes of hate rise globally but will it cease?
The day we try and find a little peace within the Middle East,
We shadow their borders yelling deplete their arms,
Its just war for black gold so they can grease their palms,
We all need a scapegoat, a villain to cop blame,
We’re just wolves in sheep’s clothing killing in gods name,
And that’s world wide, like global over population,
We mine the world dry of natural resources to feed our nations,
Appetite for waste, I see it everywhere,
I feel like throwing a flag of protest in Tienanmen Square,
We need to care for mother earth and all of her natural defences,
But talk is cheap, and taking action is expensive,
We wear our hearts on our sleeves, our flags on our borders,
And that’s why nuclear testings done in pacific foreign waters,
We follow reporters with the worth of a scholar,
And gather personal opinions from a rag worth a dollar,
Man this is not a subject; I feel lightly I can talk on,
The attitude is one man of many, so walk on.

[floody]

KMFDM -
Stars & Stripes

A tyrant is a man who allows his people no freedom
Who is puffed-up by pride
Driven by the lust of power
Impelled by greed
Provoked by thirst for fame

Divided and conquered
Gripped by fear
Wishful thinking that it can't happen here
It's well underways but nobody knows
A repeat of history
That's how it goes

Tell the people that they're under attack
By man-eating foes from mars or iraq
Mobilize outrage
Muzzle dissent
Send in the troops
Strike the pre-empt

Stars & stripes
Learn how to fight
We come together by the dawn of the light
Oh so proudly we hail as the rockets red glare
Stars & stripes

Control the airwaves
Fuel the reaction
Use every weapon of mass-distraction
Turn active people into passive consumers
Feed 'em bogus polls and harebrained rumours

Cut back civil rights
Make no mistake
Tell 'em homeland security is now at stake
Whip up a frenzy keep 'em suspended
Don't let 'em know that their liberty's ended

Everything goes in the desperate states
The veneer of democracy rapidly fades
Wreak total havoc on all opposition
In any event fulfill your mission

Totalitarian media sensation
You will give 'em domination
Never mind they call you a liar and thief
By now you're undisputed commander-in-chief

[DYJK]

http://www.dnash.org/fark/nazi-twins.jpg

[toodles]

http://www.dnash.org/fark/nazi-twins.jpg

A comparison to Nazis!!? WTF? When I sober up, you're in for it boy! Fuckin hell, what kind of stupid fuckin comparison is that? Damn beer... affect my ability to think... Grrr... I better get away from the computer ASAP but that's friggen ridiculous.

[johnny]

I think it's more the physical appearance than anything else and just a bit of a laugh. I think you could almost do the same with some pics of Joe Stalin and Sad Husein. Still not a valid comparrison though.

[HunterDevourer]

I think it's more the physical appearance than anything else and just a bit of a laugh. I think you could almost do the same with some pics of Joe Stalin and Sad Husein. Still not a valid comparrison though.

Hussein was but a poor, intentional imitation of the all swinging all hitting Josef Stalin. He was quite a fan of everyones favourite communist leader, but I doubt Don feels the same way about Maximilian. Quite a funny find though.

[danv]

Tomorrow, Thursday, November 17, will see the Adelaide CBD locked down for the arrival of the architect of the murder of a 100,000+ innocent people (http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6596) in Iraq since it's illegal invasion; US 'Defence' Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

And for what and why?

The CDB will be a day of barriers protecting war-mongers from pacifists...ooh, the irony.

What song would you dedicate to Donnie?



Here's mine.

'Starship Troopers', by Ozi Batla.


I was gonna PM this, but though I may as well post it. Just some lyric corrections. (these are straight from horses mouth, a while back I found some thread on the elefanttracks forum where Ozi posted them)

Lost in deep cover,
“Dear John,” said his lover’s last letter
Emptied a full clip to feel better,
Slipped a rung on Jacob's ladder,
Desert boot camp deserter got stung by death adder,

Don’t get mad get even madder,
A10 tank killer fodder,
Interrogate? Why bother…
My brother for a last cigarette, no please not yet
One last dance, lest we regret

Look me in the eye, GI, and tell me you’re not tired,
Tired to death sir, tired till it hurts
Now this shit couldn’t get much worse

Well it may…

We march at the break of day
And come what may, rules of engagement say
We will stand to the very last, shrapnel blast

A casket goes home….
Sons and daughters wrapped in stars and stripes to keep ‘em warm
(background voice “Give peace a chance…that doesn’t mean anything”
“It’s like give peace a chance”)

Under red orange dawn we draw the line
And those on the other side must stand and fight
Tracers like fourth of July in the night
Lighting up like Hiroshima…
The perfect sight

**** CHORUS******
I’m a Starship Trooper
This is my letter to dad, transferred from Saigon to Baghdad
And now I’m dead…
An allied soldier, with skin boils from Ebola
I’ll bring you back a souvenir of what we stole
Repeat

I was only nineteen
Joined for the pay packet
Now my full metal jacket won’t take one more hit
I don’t give two shits about oil interests
But depleted uranium, just gave Joe a fit

Captain Kurtz said, “fight till the hurt stops“
Yet all I can see is burned crops
And mates shell-shocked
Morphine under lock and key
Their AK’s talking to my M16

Pray for friendly fire
Haven’t seen a priest, but plenty of funeral pyres
Triage nurse is dying
My name in the paper
Next to a faceless dictator
And another flag to drape
Hey yo, check

Here’s the commanding officer
A total mess again
Crying in the mess tent
How to make mice or mince meat of his men….

****CHORUS*****

Repeat

I’m a Starship Trooper
This is my letter to dad
Transferred from Saigon to Baghdad
And now I’m dead
An allied soldier…………………..

I probably would have chosen that song too.

[Atomizer]

I was gonna PM this, but though I may as well post it. Just some lyric corrections. (these are straight from horses mouth, a while back I found some thread on the elefanttracks forum where Ozi posted them)

Cheers for this danv. Having copied the lyrics off a thread on the elefanttracks forum that was correcting a previous post's attempt to get the lyrics right I thought I had it all here. Should have read further. :o

[PINT of Stella, mate!]

'Cu*t' by Roy 'Chubby' Brown (probably more apt for Georgie, especially the first two lines but I'll submit it anyway)

All mouth, no brain,
this guy's a pain.
You can scream and cuss!

Mind, he'd put his boot up your dog's arse,
he'd even lick your lasses puss!

See, He'd nick yer fags,
And he'd drink your booze
And tie fireworks to the cat

And he'd inform the dole you were working,
well just who is this twat?

He's a Cu*t,
He's a Cu*t
He's a C-U-*-T, Cu*t

With his broken teeth and his ugly face,
He's a male dickcheese with no time or place!(?)
See he'd sleep with yer granny and bite her fanny,
Wear's his trousers back to front!
And He farts, sucks cocks
and He's riddled with pox
Cos' basically he's just a Cu*t!

And so on, so forth...


By the way if you're easily offended it's probably not a good idea to read the above paragraphs!

[rowanr]

i just hate political shit johnny! i mean topics like this are unnecessary and stupid. by topic i mean "ode to donald 'war criminal' rumsfeld", and not the content that you and toodles are debating. it just seems no one knows the truth about much, so they like to make up stuff that they want to hear to make themselves feel better or just find someone to blame. i can't see how you call rumsfeld a war criminal when saddam was in power for a long time, and nothing was done when it should have been. i mean he killed most of his family for fucks sake, he's not going to give a shit about 'his' people!!
apologies if my writing skills aren't up to the eloquence and almost salesman like fluency of yours- i'm an engineer not a journalist.

[johnny]

i just hate political shit johnny! Well then why did you comment on it.i mean topics like this are unnecessary and stupid. Well then why did you comment on it? by topic i mean "ode to donald 'war criminal' rumsfeld", and not the content that you and toodles are debating. it just seems no one knows the truth about much, so they like to make up stuff that they want to hear to make themselves feel better or just find someone to blame. That's fine, but you just assumed that people were talking on rumours and hearsay. Either you can automatically tell the validity of some one's opinion, just by reading a post on the net, or you know the truth yourself. Either way, you wrote off people's argument by calling them lefties and implying that they had no idea what they were on about. Based on what? An assumption. The same thing you are accusing others of. Well done. This isn't eloquent speech, this is simple rational thought. i can't see how you call rumsfeld a war criminal When did I ever do that FFS??? when saddam was in power for a long time, and nothing was done when it should have been. And what exactly did Rumsfeld do when Saddam was killing people...I've got a lovely pic of Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand if you want to see it? Being that Rumsfeld and the government that he worked for supported Sadam when he was killing people, doesn't that make them a little bit guilty too? i mean he killed most of his family for fucks sake, he's not going to give a shit about 'his' people!! Just like Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe right now, just like the Military regime in Burma right now, Just like Kim Jong Il in DPRK right now, etc...... What's America doing about this....Nothing, becuase there's no advantage to America in invading htese countries. Reeeaaallly simple stuff mate. Don't fall for all the passionate bullshit speaches you get from politicians, they're salesmen mate.
apologies if my writing skills aren't up to the eloquence and almost salesman like fluency of yours- i'm an engineer not a journalist.
Yeah well you know what, I'm no fucking journalist either, I didn't even finish year ten at highschool. I did dead end jobs until I joined the army, where I did a dumb, thumb in bum job until I left and worked my arse off to get into uni. I only know my stuff because I work hard at it. Don't go hiding behind some pathetic "Oh I'm only a lowely.............. I can't compete with you, but don't belittle me" sob story, I'm no fucking different. I only give my opinion when I'm willing to back it up. I proof read everyone of my serious posts so I make sure it's saying what I want it to say. It's not your writing I disagree with anyway, it's your uninfromed opinion and your redundant idea that anyone who argues against the invasion is some kind of lefty bleeding heart lovey dovey. Just because people argue for softer alternatives, doesn't mean they do it out of pity or care for others, and above all, just because some one argues for diplomacy doesn't mean they don't understand war.

[Atomizer]

i just hate political shit johnny! i mean topics like this are unnecessary and stupid. by topic i mean "ode to donald 'war criminal' rumsfeld",

As Johnny didn't post this in the first place what's your beef with him? Your opinions are valid and you're entitled to make them known but direct them at the right person rowan.

The title and purpose of my post was intended to be flippant but, if you have read any of the thread content, we can now appreciate that Donald Rumsfeld provokes some pretty passionate and well argued sentiment for obvious reasons.

Given the opposing arguements discussed here and the strong-feelings people have for/against the Iraq conflict this thread has proven, for me, a pretty good, but rare, example of constructive discussion of an emotive subject.

As you have said you 'hate political shit'. Is is rarely rivetting stuff; agreed. But you have the option of ignoring posts that aren't to your liking. It's that easy mate.

[rowanr]

what! i got no beef with johnny!
sorry, my post wasn't pointed at him just the first sentence because he said something to me before. my point is that even though saddam was an ass, it was good SOMEONE did something about it in the end. hopefully with time the countries governemt and people level out.
yes, 99% of the time i do ignore political stuff!! just shits me the way some people think that because some politician is american, they're an ignorant war mongering greedy bastard. not saying anyone said that, but thats the vibe i get. i haven't seen, nor heard any proof of this in any way its just speculation and its annoying. anyway, its late. i'm out. i'm always open for debate, and i wasn't aiming my thoughts at anyone.
what did you do in the army johnny? i've always wanted to join and i've done the tests and shit but i didn't realise we had to remember all this stuff about what you do, so i was told to come back in a year!