Hell ride kills elderly man.. [Archive]

Christo

29-08-2006, 07:49 PM

Searched but couldn't find anything yet...

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/man-struck-by-cyclist-dies/2006/08/28/1156617253330.html

Man struck by cyclist dies

An elderly man has died in hospital after being struck by a cyclist in Melbourne's south on the weekend.

The 77-year-old Mentone man was crossing Beach Road at a traffic light near the intersection of Naples Road in Mentone at 8.30am on Saturday.

At the time, the "Hell Ride" - a weekly communal ride involving cyclists in groups of 100 or more - was taking place along Beach Road.

A spokeswoman from Victoria Police said the elderly man had signalled his intention to cross the road as cyclists approached, but he was struck down and received serious head injuries.

The man was taken to the Alfred hospital, but died yesterday.

Police said a 30-year-old man from St Kilda East would be issued with a penalty notice for allegedly failing to obey a traffic light. The penalty carries a $210 fine.

Police will prepare a report for the Coroner.

theage.com.au

Very sad, I can't stand the hell riders - they take up the whole of beach road & piss off drivers - giving all cyclists a bad name.

Average Joe on the street doesn't know the difference between MTB & road - this is bad for all cyclists...

Stop at red lights please!

V10

29-08-2006, 08:00 PM

Yer i would have to agree its really sad when some (Pack of) dickheads can cause so much damage, Because of their stupidity. Your right most people would just label us all the same, roadies, xc, dh etc. Very sad indeed atleast most of us are mindfull of others when we are out there doing what we love.

PINT of Stella, mate!

29-08-2006, 08:19 PM

F***ing great, I can see the likes of Andrew Bolt and Miranda Devine sharpening the knives already.

It's bad enough having another tragic death on our roads without an anti-cycling lynch mob forming in the media...

Ryan

29-08-2006, 08:41 PM

Don't forget Piers Akerman...:rolleyes:...

I can see his column in the Terrorgraph tomorrow lamenting how lefty-pinko-communist-socialist-nazi cyclists under the direction of the ALP and the ABC are out to kill-off the Liberal support base in inner-cities by running down pensioners.

You laugh now, but just you wait and see...

danv

29-08-2006, 10:05 PM

What can you say? except bloody idiot. I hope the guy gets charged with something more than running a red light...

Drizz

29-08-2006, 10:08 PM

I can see his column in the Terrorgraph tomorrow lamenting how lefty-pinko-communist-socialist-nazi cyclists under the direction of the ALP and the ABC are out to kill-off the Liberal support base in inner-cities by running down pensioners.

And I eagerly await the Chaser spoof on these lefty-pinko-communist-socialist-nazi-save the whale-lesbian cyclists that the Terrorgraph speak of.

Mind you we should launch our own "Hell ride" and lynch this moronic "cyclist".

Carlin

29-08-2006, 10:27 PM

Does anyone mind filling in a Sydneysider on the ins and outs of this "Hell ride"?

Sounds a bit dodgy, you kind of take your life into your own hands when you hit the road and start jamming with cars, but you've got to take that little bit more care with someone else's. Watch out for them pedestrians.

tanlicouz

29-08-2006, 11:17 PM

Saw it on the news, saw how the news took the footage of the "hell ride" as a swaming mob taking over the road, totally ignoring road rules.

As some one else has mentioned, i really do hope the rider gets more then a fine. Its terrible that this tragedy has occured, let it teach all riders that potentially we can kill someone by riding recklessly and not respecting others.

FACT: GIVE WAY TO PEDESTRIANS.

PINT of Stella, mate!

29-08-2006, 11:37 PM

It doesn't take them long...

courtesy of the age

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/fast-furious-and-fatal/2006/08/29/1156816899914.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

Dan Silkstone and Vanessa Burrow
August 30, 2006

CHANCES are, he barely saw the man he hit, such was his hurry.

Metal ploughed into flesh when the red light was run; the mown-down pedestrian later died. The vehicle had been travelling quickly.

Had it been a car, its driver would be in deep trouble, facing possible culpable driving charges and years in prison. It was a bicycle. He is not.

Police have charged a 30-year-old cyclist with failing to stop at a red light over the Saturday morning collision that killed James Gould, 77, in Mentone, but yesterday said there was little more they could do.

"It's a complex area … but the fact is bicycles don't constitute what a motor vehicle is within the Act," Deputy Police Commissioner (Traffic) Noel Ashby said.

But he would not rule out steps to end the controversial "Hell Ride", a thrillseekers' weekend tradition along Beach Road since 1984, and which was taking place when Mr Gould was struck. "People on bikes aren't permitted to go through red lights, block lanes, make the roads otherwise unsafe, and if they're going to do so they can rest assured that we will certainly respond from an enforcement perspective," he said.

Yesterday morning the riders continued were out again — unbowed by Saturday's incident, but certainly not unaffected. Soon after dawn they gathered, a Hydra in iridescent lycra, for the weekday version of their ride. Spontaneous and unorganised, all were subdued and many weren't happy. They spoke of why this had happened, some asking what to do about the few idiots that long-time riders say are ruining the ride for the responsible majority.

But there's another question that must be asked: how responsible and safe is it for up to 200 riders to hurtle along a busy road at speeds of up to 60 km/h each morning? Harry Barber, who heads Bicycle Victoria, is in little doubt. "These are the cyclists' equivalent of illegal drag racers," he said. "A small group have started up this illegal activity. Their priority is to stick together and so they ignore traffic signals. The Hell Ride is the despair of the responsible riders. They are a tiny minority and they give all cyclists a bad name."

In London last month, Lord Mayor Ken Livingstone floated a plan to register cyclists and issue number plates. Riders caught breaking road rules would have points deducted from their motor vehicle licences.

Here, police are promising a more modest review of the law. Mr Barber supports the move. "If we want bicycles to be part of the system and we want road funding and lanes to ride on, the community is not going to let that happen if bike riding is an exception to the rules," he said.

While the Beach Road riders, sometimes up to 200 strong, have long been a source of frustration for motorists, relations with the police had improved after a code of conduct was drawn up in 2003. Riders agreed to stay in one lane, not fight their way to the front and stop at all red lights. But regular riders say observance of the code has slipped recently as newer, younger cyclists drawn by the Hell Ride's name and image ignore the unofficial rules. Traffic lights are the big concern. When the leaders make it through and the light turns red behind them, some in the chasing pack are loath to stop and wait.

Jeff Proven is the St Kilda Cycling Club president and does the Hell Ride about a dozen times each year. "There's a lot of adrenaline in the middle of it," he said. "To complete the ride safely is a good feeling."

Unsafe riding had worsened in the past 12 months, he said. "We totally condemn this sort of behaviour — but the Hell Ride does beat up a bit of sensation because of its name and its history," he said.

The ride runs from Black Rock along Beach Road to Mount Eliza and back. "It's for guys that are experienced in racing and can handle riding at close quarters at fairly fast speeds," Mr Proven said. "There will always be cowboys, though."

I dunno if I like this number plate idea that's being thrown around. Admittedly it's come straight from the mouth of Ken 'soundbite' Livingstone and would be almost impossible to enforce but any sort of scrutiny is unwelcome in my book...

ScottD

30-08-2006, 06:35 AM

Does anyone mind filling in a Sydneysider on the ins and outs of this "Hell ride"?

Do you ride around akuna/duffy's/west head on a saturday morning?

we have our own version although not to the same scale. Turramurra cycles rides, its friggin massive there is 50-60 of them. I have seen people pull over to the side of the road to get out of the way.
Group rides should be limited to 20 people max.

McBain

30-08-2006, 07:24 AM

we have our own version although not to the same scale. Turramurra cycles rides, its friggin massive there is 50-60 of them.I was actually chatting to my housemate about that ride last night, as he's been doing it for years. The Bobbo ride is nowhere near as dangerous or stupid as the Hell Ride. They follow the road rules and the majority of the ride is on roads that don't have a lot of traffic at that time of day (early morning on the weekend, mostly through the National Park).

Sydney does have a version of the Hell Ride though - the Coluzzi Ride. From all reports, that one is turning into more and more of a mess.

Wattsy

30-08-2006, 10:16 AM

we have our own version although not to the same scale. Turramurra cycles rides, its friggin massive there is 50-60 of them. I have seen people pull over to the side of the road to get out of the way.

You mean the dawny? not a turra ride (shudder's). It's awesome, and so hard. I only do half (bobbo loop) on wed mornings and get smashed. good fun though, it's way to better to ride in a group, the traffic notices you. There are a fair few people that show up during the summer, even though it's a bit annoyin when slower people keep gettin dropped it make's the use of the road safer.

crabapple hitz

30-08-2006, 10:32 AM

Cyclists and road rules is an age old gripe but the amount of cyclists on my ride to work in the mornings has easily doubled in the last 12 months.
Probably due to petrol prices and crappy pubic transport.
Everyday I am shocked at the amount of stupidity going on by cyclists.
I watch idiots blow through red lights like they have every right to. I have seen so many near misses I have taken to closing my eyes when I see them cruising on through. I also see people treating pedestrians with no respect. No wonder everyone hates us on the roads. The behaviour that's going on is really shameful.

We need a real education campaign to teach cyclists and especially newbie road riders to teach them how to behave. Mainly for there own safety but also to reclaim some respect on the roads.

Sure some arrogant car drivers hate us because we slow them up for a few seconds before we overtake them at the lights anyway. But not everyone is like that and our behaviour is starting to make enemies of all the normal road users and pedestrians out there.

sossy

30-08-2006, 10:58 AM

Sure some arrogant car drivers hate us because we slow them up for a few seconds before we overtake them at the lights anyway.

This is one of my pet hates... the motorists passes you, you pass them at the lights, they have to pass you again... wait where you fall in the line. Motorbikes have the power to get away and travel at the speed, pushies generally don't. have a little respect for the motorist, you might be amazed where it gets you.

I have been incenced by the dribble in the papers in melb, so much so thatI wrote a letter to the editor of the herald scum...

"Regarding your article titled “Left for Dead by Speeding Cyclists”, as a cyclist I feel that this article is nothing short of inflammatory and bordering on inciting hate for cyclists.

The title itself is a falicy, with the rider concerned stopping, along with other cyclists stopping to assist the injured Mr Gould. I would like it explained how this can be construed as being “left for dead” How many people do you want to stop to assist? No doubt if the bunch had stopped, they would have been labeled insensitive for stopping to watch a man die. How are cyclists supposed to win?

The remainder of the title “speeding cyclists” also raises questions, the speed limit along the section of road in question is 60kmh, what evidence do these so called “journalists” have to indicate that the cyclist concerned was speeding, given that to be speeding they would have to have been traveling in excess of 60kmh?

As an active member of the cycling community, I was deeply saddened when I heard the news on Saturday that a pedestrian had been hit as a cyclist ran a red light. For these actions there is no excuse, as a cyclist, we are road users and therefore are bound by the road laws.

The cyclist in question showed blatant disregard for these laws and needs to be held accountable for his actions. We all see it every day, with cyclists failing to obey the road laws. This does nothing to help the reputation of the cyclist, a reputation that a lot of people work long and hard to improve in the public eye. I ask this question however, how does this differ from a motorist showing the same disregard for the same laws, wether it be by speeding, talking on the mobile or any other misdemeanor.

If you look back over the records to compare how many cyclists have been hit by motor vehicles compared to pedestrians hit by cyclists you will see the balance lies heavily with the motorists hitting cyclists.

Just last year the nation was awakened with news of the womens cycling team being hit by a motorist in Germany, tragically resulting in the passing of Amy Gillet. For a brief moment, motorists showed care and understanding to cyclists on the road, sadly, this has passed and the “cyclists are the enemy” bandwagon has greased its wheels up and set itself in motion.

The reports that James Gould was out for his morning walk, exercising to stay young are another bone of contention. Mr Gould may well have been doing that, although reading the inflammatory garbage sprouted by so called “journalists”, you would think that the beach road cyclists were out hunting in a pack to mow down a pedestrian.

When a cyclists is hit and killed by a car, it is a small news item, these people are not labeled killers, these victims are not “left for dead”, the call to ban cars form the road isn’t made. Why? Possibly because it is such a common occurrence, it just isn’t news worthy anymore. Cycling groups face a never ending struggle of trying to earn the respect of motorists. Events such as Saturdays go no way to helping the cause, however the thousands of cyclists who do the right thing are never spoken about, cyclists only exist when doing the wrong thing.

Look back to the Eugene McGee case from Adelaide, the lawyer involved in the hit run of a cyclist. He received a $3100 fine and a 12 month licence suspension. Cyclists are constantly told that they are road users and that road laws apply. If Mr McGee had hit another car with the same result, I am sure there would have been far more serious consequences.

The beach road incident is tragic and a massive blow to the cycling community and the good work put in by many to improve the perception of cyclists. Sadly, like any group of people, there is the minority that choose to do the wrong thing and think the laws don’t apply to them, just like motorists, just like bushwalkers.

Sensationalist journailism as displayed in the media as late does nothing to help anyone. Cyclists will now be at the mercy of the motorists, as renegades seek justice. How many cyclists will be abused, have things thrown at them from moving cars, be spat on over the weekend. Don’t think it will happen? It happens every day. Thanks to the media, sadly cyclists are the enemy.

I wish all road users the best for there travels, show a little respect for your fellow man, and play the game right."

robmundall

30-08-2006, 11:08 AM

TonyG

30-08-2006, 11:24 AM

We can talk about how bad a name it has created for bike riders (which is the word the general public uses, they don't identify a difference between the different disciplines but instead bundle us together in situations like this) but a man has died because of the ignorance of a rider, and all he is getting is a $220 fine!
Fuckoff a life is worth $220. The rider should be charged with manslaughter! This is bullshit! Just another hole in the judicial system. :mad:

I think manslaughter is a bit rough. Anyone of us could be peddling a bit hard and accidentally hit someone and who then fall awkwardly and hit their head and die. Accidents do happen, it is unfortunate but this can happen. I'm sure the guy who did this feels terrible. If he was riding in a reckless fashion, then he should be charged for riding in a reckless fashion. What if a runner was running recklessly through a crowd and somehow knocked over an old guy who fell and died, is this still manslaughter?

johnny

30-08-2006, 11:31 AM

No, it's not manslaughter. It's something along the lines of negligence causing death. If you are driving negligently and you kill some one, you are charged with dangerous driving occasioning death....or something such. This is why we have road rules and other laws of conduct, to protect ourselves and others. If you disregard these laws, selfishly, and you cause the severe injury or death of another, you're going to get into trouble and mabye you should.

At this point I need to recall all the arguments I've made against deterrence and punishment.......

PINT of Stella, mate!

30-08-2006, 11:34 AM

Well said, sossy. You should maybe fire that through to the Age as well...

As far as punishment for the cyclist in question goes, the $220 fine isn't the end of it. The police have commented that they can't charge him with dangerous driving (and quite right to, a bike is not the same as a car) however he can still be prosecuted in other ways if need be...

johnny

30-08-2006, 11:35 AM

The police have commented that they can't charge him with dangerous driving (and quite right to, a bike is not the same as a car) Maybe not, but I reckon that distinction might be lost on the dead bloke's family right now.

PINT of Stella, mate!

30-08-2006, 11:43 AM

True enough, but there has to be clear distinctions between the two or else we're going to have to start putting kid's on their L's as soon as they get their first huffy on their 4th birthday...

danv

30-08-2006, 02:31 PM

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/08/29/svGOULD_wideweb__470x316,0.jpg
"James Gould died after being caught in the cyclists' ride. Adventurous Mr Gould had travelled the world by cargo ship."
He seems like he was a really cool guy...

I know it's completely emotive, but it really makes my blood boil to see a bunch of irresponsible, arrogant, up them selves lycra crad wankers with so little consideration for other people and traffic rules, so concerned with THEMSELVES that they actually KILL SOMEBODY. That they actually take away the life of someone like this old guy. These groups routinely run red lights, deliberately piss of motorists, and think that they own the road. They are your typical worst drivers on the road, only in different vehicles.

PINT of Stella, mate!

30-08-2006, 02:32 PM

Here's an update courtesy of the Age

Pedalling for dear life in running of the bikes
Simon Johanson
August 30, 2006

EYEWITNESS

THEY don't call it the "Hell Ride" for nothing. A pack of cyclists, up to 200 strong, sweeps down Beach Road from Black Rock to Mount Eliza and back every Saturday morning.

They ride at a furious pace, about 40 km/h, two or three abreast, all of them trying to keep pace with the rider in front.

When a pedestrian stepped into the road and was knocked down by a cyclist last weekend, the Hell Ride more than earned its moniker. It was too big, too fast and too dangerous. I know, I was there.

Having recently taken up road cycling, I was returning from an early morning ride to Frankston — my second ride on that route — when I was swept up by the Hell Ride bunch.

It's easy to get caught in the pace and energy of the ride. Two hundred cyclists at speed behave a bit like running cattle, swerving around obstacles and pushing hard to maintain a flow and momentum up hills and around corners that too often appears unstoppable.

The instant the pedestrian lights near Naples Road in Mentone changed with half the cyclists still riding through, the scene was set for disaster.

On my bike near the kerb, approaching the lights at the bottom of a dip in the road, I watched them change and braked hard. There were cries of "slowing" and "lights" from several riders, but it wasn't enough to stop the momentum.

I saw an elderly man standing near the lights and then, as other riders swept around me, lost sight of him. When I pulled up and looked to my right there was a jumble of riders, some still moving through the lights. Several people were on the ground.

It was a scene any rider dreads. As a couple of the riders picked themselves up off the road, I saw the man lying on the tarmac, not moving. One rider had hit him and the following rider hit the cyclist in front.

Another bystander and I rushed to the man's side. He was conscious but not responding to questions. It's a cliche, but in moments like that, time slows down. The ambulance seemed to take forever to arrive as we nursed the elderly man as best we could, trying to keep him warm and stop him moving.

Other riders pulled up to help, including a casualty doctor and nurse. He was taken to hospital, where he died yesterday morning.

Can you apportion blame? It could have been any rider in the bunch who came down that hill and ran into the man. I would hate to be in the shoes of that rider. Many were going too fast and riding too close together, but that's the nature of cycling in a group. I, for one, won't be riding that road again.

johnny

30-08-2006, 03:46 PM

The question does have to be asked though, and I do not mean to sound callous in any way whatsoever. But why did this bloke step out into what sounds to be a large and fast moving pack of vehicles?

Dumbellina

30-08-2006, 03:54 PM

Yeah yeah reckless cyclist.... The last place I expected to see anti-bike dribble repeated with such sincerity is on a bike forum. I don't mean to belittle the death, but come riders people die on the road every frigging day. Yeah he was an innocent old man, so lots of innocent old men die on the top of bikes and no-one in the mainstream media gives a hoot.

Just by way of comparision three stories in today's SMH online version are about careless drivers killing pedestrians. Bike-pedestrian fatal collisions are very very rare but the facts fit the usual case - fast bike, elderly vulnerable pedestrian.

The facts indicate a carelessness amongst a group of riders. So what we riders see more carelessness come from drivers than any amount of weekend stupidity can account.

As for running red lights, I plead guilty. Traffic lights are designed wholy and solely to manage the flow of motor vehicles (and pedestrians). There is no room at all for bikes in terms of intersection design. So of course we run red lights.

I read on a US bike advocacy website a simple explaination. Is it safer to cross a road with cars on or without them? Obviously it is safer to do so when there are no cars. When are there no cars in an intersection, when the traffic light is red. So crossing an intersection with red light and no cars is infinitely safer than crossing the same intersection on a green light with cars. The clear problem for most newbie riders is that both conditions - red light and no cars - must be meet to justify running a red light. You should at least take the time to stop and look, and only do it if it is safe to do so.

So the fact that the light is red alone for a cyclist should really be of no consequence - the world was designed to exclude us, so we ride the space and environment around us as we see safe and convienent.

As an aside I see many many cars running red lights. I don't see anyone calling for their blood.

scblack

30-08-2006, 03:56 PM

The question does have to be asked though, and I do not mean to sound callous in any way whatsoever. But why did this bloke step out into what sounds to be a large and fast moving pack of vehicles?

I'm not trying to be callous either, but thats kinda what old farts do. They think they own the road. "I've got the right of way! So here I go....."

Sethius

30-08-2006, 04:00 PM

just curious with the amount of discussion this may(has) caused, maybe send a link to the papers to this, they might be bored and actually take time to see the cyclists opinions instead of their sensationalised journalism...
but then mircles dont really happen...

johnny

30-08-2006, 04:02 PM

Sethius

30-08-2006, 04:04 PM

Well, off you go then. You've got the address and a computer ;)

lol good point, 1/2 awake half not.

danv

30-08-2006, 04:08 PM

The question does have to be asked though, and I do not mean to sound callous in any way whatsoever. But why did this bloke step out into what sounds to be a large and fast moving pack of vehicles?

I agree it's a significant point, one I thought of too, but how many times have you walked on a green light with out looking? Maybe the old guy was a bit deaf, maybe he thought they were going to stop. It's actually still pretty unclear from the eye witness account IMO but it appears as thought they were riding through, the lights turned, and they all began to stop, but some kept going. Maybe he saw riders approaching but assumed they were just pulling up. Maybe he wasn't paying attention and just stepped out instinctively when the light flashed green.

I have hit someone on a bike once, which I still feel really bad about. When I was younger, I was in the city one time, and I simply didn't know the deal with trams - that when they put they're signal on, it means they are stopping and you have to stop behind them because people are getting out. Anyway, stupid me just comes flying down the road, going past this tram as it stops. Of course when the doors open, people just step out without looking, that's what they do. They expect the road to be clear. I hit some one who stepped out. Luckily she was just a bit shaken and completely uninjured, even though it was a fair hit. I've always felt really bad about it, that could just have easily been this old guy stepping off a tram. That, and a few other reasons, is why now I try to learn road rules really well and be a really safe road user no matter what vehicle i'm in control of (and this doesn't even neccesarily entail being ultra conservative and slow). The hell riders on the other hand, delibaretely and routinely flout rules and behave unsafely and uncosiderately.

I live on beach road and know it well, and it actually isn't a massively safe road in itself, let alone for this type of shit. There's a million blind corners, dodgy intersections, parked cars filling up lanes, people pulling in and out of driveways/beach car parks with shit all visibility, and pedestrian crossings. I'm suprised none of the cyclists have come to serious grief (or maybe they have I haven't heard about it.).

Sethius

30-08-2006, 04:16 PM

sent an email... wonder if theyll ever bother looking at it.

Christo

30-08-2006, 06:28 PM

I'm suprised none of the cyclists have come to serious grief (or maybe they have I haven't heard about it.).

Yeah, they do fairly often, I recently moved near by & I've seen the results of a roadie hitting at van at speed... Pretty nasty... He was actually inside the van - the rear window had a big, roadie shaped hole in it...

skwiz05

30-08-2006, 06:56 PM

I had a run in with this pack of 'roadie scum' about 18 months back when some failed to stop at the red light and three collected my 89 Pajero, 4 skidded off....Damned if I was gonna let em all break the law, so I edged out a bit, on my green light, and the fools kept coming, so the ones behind probably didnt see me.....well, not at least until a very expensive 'LOOK' carbon frame went under my rear wheel......

And the cops that were there at the time saw it all ... and told the bunch to pull there heads in......

Car 7.....roadies...nil.....

Christo

30-08-2006, 07:28 PM

ScottD

30-08-2006, 08:02 PM

Sydney does have a version of the Hell Ride though - the Coluzzi Ride. From all reports, that one is turning into more and more of a mess.

thats the cafe yeh?
''The lunatic element was strongly on show when the pace increased - these guys treat it as a race through the streets and pay no attention to cars... I saw several near misses and the bunch gets very messy with lots of overtaking on the left, dropping in and all sorts of bad behaviour.''
taken off a NSTC forum.

Group rides should be limited to 20 people. That way there is enough people to talk to over 3-4 hours and it isnt crazy big.

Wattsy

30-08-2006, 08:15 PM

I know it's completely emotive, but it really makes my blood boil to see a bunch of irresponsible, arrogant, up them selves lycra crad wankers with so little consideration for other people and traffic rules, so concerned with THEMSELVES that they actually KILL SOMEBODY. That they actually take away the life of someone like this old guy. These groups routinely run red lights, deliberately piss of motorists, and think that they own the road. They are your typical worst drivers on the road, only in different vehicles.

I like this, the fact this guy is giving us shit about the fact we try and save ourselfs from car's who most delibertly try to have us killed everyday. I almost got hit twice today in a 10 minute commute and i never did anything in a traffic perspective wrong. I'd love to crack the shit's with these people face to face. Funny bit is, these people never have ridden a bike on a city street. Get them to do that and they'd be on ourside. Till then, screw the paper's, loads of shit for everyone.

Christo

30-08-2006, 08:22 PM

arpit

30-08-2006, 08:26 PM

there's no justification for breaking any road rules

I'd say that 'personal safety' is a great justification for breaking road rules.
Road rules weren't really designed with bicycles in mind. I know that I break road rules when I, for example,

- ride on the footpath on blind corners on really busy roads,
- merge across several lanes at once
etc.
Yet, I feel justified in breaking these rules because I feel that following them would unnecessarily endanger my well-being.

I appreciate that that justification isn't hugely relevant to the topic of the thread. It's a tangent, much like your own post. (No offence- It's a nice tangent :P)
I merely wish to denote a hole in your blanket statement.

Christo

30-08-2006, 08:31 PM

I'd say that 'personal safety' is a great justification for breaking road rules. I appreciate that that jsutification isn't hugely relevant in the context of this threat. However, I'd like to point out that your blanket statement has some holes.

Nah, still don't get what you mean, I spend two hours a day on busy roads.

Anyway, we could argue until the cows come home...

robmundall

30-08-2006, 08:32 PM

The question does have to be asked though, and I do not mean to sound callous in any way whatsoever. But why did this bloke step out into what sounds to be a large and fast moving pack of vehicles?
It was a red light. The green walk signal most probally flashed on giving him quee to walk. Even if he saw the group he was most probally thinking "they will stop like everyone else does and is supposed to", but we will never know what he was thinking now because, he's dead.:mad:

johnny

30-08-2006, 08:36 PM

It was a red light. The green walk signal most probally flashed on giving him quee to walk. Even if he saw the group he was most probally thinking "they will stop like everyone else does and is supposed to", but we will never know what he was thinking now because, he's dead.:mad:Doesn't the account read that the 'peleton' was halfway through the lights when they changed? That implies that he walked right out inot the middle of them to me :confused:

arpit

30-08-2006, 08:42 PM

Doesn't the account read that the 'peloton' was halfway through the lights when they changed? That implies that he walked right out into the middle of them to me :confused:

Nevertheless, a peloton is a group of riders, is it not? They aren't a truck.
The riders at the end of the peloton must stop for a red light, regardless of the position of the lead riders.

Yes, that does mean that he, like you said, would have walked straight into a moving mass of cyclists.
However, I think he had a legitimate expectation that, despite the fact that the lead riders had entered the intersection, the following riders would obey the road rules and stop for a red light.

Observation would have shown him otherwise, however.

And yes, it does sound like a case of "I've got right of way, screw the real world and the laws of physics, I'm going"

I'm just hypothesising. The media report isn't particularly detailed, nor sufficient grounds for forming a lynch mob for either party.

-Elliot-

30-08-2006, 08:43 PM

I ride 20km each way in my daily commute, all road on some busy roads - day & night - Dynon Rd, King St, Kings Way, St Kilda Rd & Nepean highway to name a few.

I rarely have trouble with cars - why? I stop at all lights - I have my bike lit up like a freaking Xmas tree at night, I signal my intentions to other road users & I share the road.

Yay! a sensible roadie

I think roadies have to learn to “share the road” I have to put up with 100’s of them every weekend and they have a few habits that get on my nerves… On the Nepean highway they tuned a car lane into a bike lane and the bloody roadies don’t even use it, when they do they ride on the outer edge of the lane so you still have to swerve around them. Also when the ride in large groups they often run red lights and fail to give way at intersections.

Christo

30-08-2006, 08:44 PM

Doesn't the account read that the 'peleton' was halfway through the lights when they changed? That implies that he walked right out inot the middle of them to me :confused:

I heard ("heard") that half went through, half stopped & the rider in question went around those who stopped trying to keep up with the leaders & hit the person in question..

All bike shop hearsay though...

johnny

30-08-2006, 08:50 PM

I heard ("heard") that half went through, half stopped & the rider in question went around those who stopped trying to keep up with the leaders & hit the person in question..

All bike shop hearsay though...If that does turn out to be the case, he's got to burn for it, especially if he holds a car license. I know I've been one to argue against the idea of zero tolerance punishment and gaol as a weapon to fight crime, but I think licensing is a pretty good determinant of when punishment can be used as a deterrent. You've proved you have an understanding of the law and you've signed on the dotted line that you will accommodate the demands of the law. If you then go ahead and break them, it has to be seen as a purely rational decision to break that law for your own purposes. All the education and understanding has been provided, you must be held accountable.

ScottD

30-08-2006, 08:55 PM

Yay! a sensible roadie

I think roadies have to learn to “share the road” I have to put up with 100’s of them every weekend and they have a few habits that get on my nerves… On the Nepean highway they tuned a car lane into a bike lane and the bloody roadies don’t even use it, when they do they ride on the outer edge of the lane so you still have to swerve around them. Also when the ride in large groups they often run red lights and fail to give way at intersections.

roadies sharing the road.
The RTA book states that you are allowed to be 2.5m out from the gutter and 2 a breast. I dont appreciate it when a car overtakes me with anger on a one laned road.
Have you ever thought why they dont use it. All the shit from the road glass and gravel etc ends up in there like on the M2 in sydney

fleshbone

30-08-2006, 08:58 PM

people are was saying,"those bloody off-road mtb'rs" let alone it happens to be those skin suit wearing !@#$ that gave bikes a bad name.

johnny

30-08-2006, 08:59 PM

I used to be as polite and accommodating on the road as I possibly could towards motorists and pedestrians. However, I still copped abuse, had things thrown at me and when I ride through town, literally get worried for my life at times. After reading the Michael Duffy article, I decided I was justified in riding like a farkin rabid terrorist. For if I'm going to be treated like one, I might as well earn it privilege.

Got self fulfilling prophecy?

-Elliot-

30-08-2006, 09:02 PM

roadies sharing the road.
The RTA book states that you are allowed to be 2.5m out from the gutter and 2 a breast. I dont appreciate it when a car overtakes me with anger on a one laned road.
Have you ever thought why they dont use it. All the shit from the road glass and gravel etc ends up in there like on the M2 in sydney.

The roadies ride more than 2.5m from the gutter and they often ride 3-4 a breast. Also the bike lanes are quite clean, i often ride in them and have had no problems.

arpit

30-08-2006, 09:17 PM

Nah, still don't get what you mean, I spend two hours a day on busy roads.

Anyway, we could argue until the cows come home...

Would you rather be riding at Point A or Point B?

I used to ride in point B. Drivers would come up behind me, see me at the last minute, then
1. Check to see if they could merge into the middle lane
2. If not, slam on the brakes

Number 2 happened fairly frequently, since drivers are accustomed to tailgate each other in the middle lane, particularly between 4-7pm.

A handlebar mirror showed me exactly how close some of the vehicles got to me before slowing down enough to avoid hitting me. I got tired of hearing screeching tyres and adopted postion A instead.

PINT of Stella, mate!

30-08-2006, 09:19 PM

I think the main points to consider are (This will sound callous as there was a fatality involved but...)

1: The media's reaction to this is totally out of proportion. The Herald Sun led it's front page with the headline LEFT TO DIE and produced a story that went along the lines of 'crazy marauding lycra clad speed demons mow down helpless OAP, and leave him there to die in the gutter!' Now as the eyewitness report shows, the riders who witnessed the incident stopped to assist. Those in front may have sped off, but they don't have eyes in the back of their head. Mr Gould (he did have a name you know...) didn't pass away until monday so it's possible that it may not have looked as serious as it was. (I'm only guessing here though) Anyways the Herald Sun have attacked this with the sort of gusto reserved for recently released paedophiles and asylum seekers. To make matters worse, the Age's reporting on the incident has been quite sensationalist as well. I just wonder what today tonight and ACA will make of it...

2: The Hell Ride was getting completely out of hand. Whilst I can see the safety aspects of pack riding, trying to recreate the TDF peleton on public roads that have traffic, junctions, pedestrians, signals and all manner of hazards with anywhere over a hundred riders is just asking for trouble. Particularly given that many of the riders substitute ability for enthusiasm and try and stay in the centre of the pack.

For the time being I'm keeping a low profile until another Shane Warne sex scandal takes the focus off...

PINT of Stella, mate!

30-08-2006, 09:29 PM

If that does turn out to be the case, he's got to burn for it, especially if he holds a car license. I know I've been one to argue against the idea of zero tolerance punishment and gaol as a weapon to fight crime, but I think licensing is a pretty good determinant of when punishment can be used as a deterrent. You've proved you have an understanding of the law and you've signed on the dotted line that you will accommodate the demands of the law. If you then go ahead and break them, it has to be seen as a purely rational decision to break that law for your own purposes. All the education and understanding has been provided, you must be held accountable.

And if he loses his car license, what's he going to use for transport?

I really don't hold with this idea of penalising somebody's driving license for dangerous riding - remember a great proportion of riders aren't even old enough to hold one. As far as deterrent goes, I think the idea of hitting a stationary object at 60km/h with nothing but a giant fluoro condom and a small helmet to protect me is enough to cause me to be a bit more aware and responsible. Whilst it didn't happen in this case, remember this is the FIRST time (well, in my knowledge) amongst how many hundreds of thousands of riders...

johnny

30-08-2006, 09:32 PM

That's not what I meant. I was referring to the fact that if he holds a drivers license, he cannot use ignorance of road rules as an excuse. He (allegedly) knowkingly broke the law and now some one is dead because of his (allegedly) reckless behaviour. I'm only speculating here of course, being that we are all quite unsure of how it all went down.

arpit

30-08-2006, 09:33 PM

Ignorance of the law ain't a good defence.

danv

31-08-2006, 12:39 AM

I like this, the fact this guy is giving us shit about the fact we try and save ourselfs from car's who most delibertly try to have us killed everyday. I almost got hit twice today in a 10 minute commute and i never did anything in a traffic perspective wrong. I'd love to crack the shit's with these people face to face. Funny bit is, these people never have ridden a bike on a city street. Get them to do that and they'd be on ourside. Till then, screw the paper's, loads of shit for everyone.

You like it do you? I didn't realise you were a hell rider. I was talking about those people specifically. I also ride on the road all the time, and routinely almost get hit and get hit. I also flout some rules, or follow my own interpretation of a traffic system that wasn't really designed for riders, and try to fit myself into it as best I can for any given traffic situation (it's really a matter of making a common sense decision, and from a rider's perspective the traffic situation changes alot more than from a driver's perspective. Ie. how busy it is, wether you fit in a line easily with car beside you, whether it's safe to go on the footpath, wether you can cut across an intersection that's clear.). But please explain how blindly running a red light, when there are OTHER PEOPLE AT A GREEN LIGHT is saving "ourselfs from car's"?

crabapple hitz

31-08-2006, 04:42 PM

But please explain how blindly running a red light, when there are OTHER PEOPLE AT A GREEN LIGHT is saving "ourselfs from car's"?

I am also interested in your explanation of this theory.

I have seen 3 people get clipped this year going through red lights that I have stopped and waited at. Luckily they were all O.K, only minor injuries.
But that's 3 lights that if I had gone through I probably would have been hit too.

Dumbellina

31-08-2006, 04:47 PM

Ignorance of the law ain't a good defence.

But ignorance seems to help the politicians who make the laws (think Howard and Children Overboard), and the judges who interpret the laws (think Justice Einfield and his traffic violations). Its just we schmucks who can't plead ignorance of the law.

danv

31-08-2006, 05:16 PM

But ignorance seems to help the politicians who make the laws (think Howard and Children Overboard), and the judges who interpret the laws (think Justice Einfield and his traffic violations). Its just we schmucks who can't plead ignorance of the law.
Fair point, but irrelevant. Those two examples are not ignorance of the law in the sense being described. They are incidents of either plain ignorance (yeah right) or corruption in the case of howard, and simple lying in the case of Einfield. But aside from that, I think it's pretty bloody hard to claim you were ignorant of the concept of stopping at a red light unless you were visiting from opposite land or are 3.

danv

31-08-2006, 05:20 PM

I am also interested in your explanation of this theory.

I have seen 3 people get clipped this year going through red lights that I have stopped and waited at. Luckily they were all O.K, only minor injuries.
But that's 3 lights that if I had gone through I probably would have been hit too.

Is it really that common for riders to go through red lights? I have not really seen this at all, and I find it hard to believe that riders (especially lone riders) do it so frequently, I mean it's down right stupid and risky from any perspective. I mean I can see (and have seen) big groups storming through pedestrian crossings with a red light wether there are pedestrians or not, but to do so through an actual intersection is pretty retarded.

Refreshinglygood

01-09-2006, 08:33 AM

I'm not trying to be callous either, but thats kinda what old farts do. They think they own the road. "I've got the right of way! So here I go....."

I'm not trying to pick on anyone in particular with this comment.

However I am absolutly amazed that there are so many people in this thread that are concerned about what it will do to our image, or that it was this poor guys fault.

Take a good long hard look at yourselves people. If you are making comments like this there is seriously something very wrong with how you look at things

This poor guy was killed. It could be that a family has lost a Father, Brother, Husband etc etc.

Surely a human life is worth a little more consideration.

Yeah he was older, yeah he possibly stept out when he shouldn't have. Surely the consequence for what ever he did should not be death.

Take a look at your loved ones, pick the person that is closest to you, that you care the most about and imagine that this person was taken away suddenly, and brutally, and then tell me this is about what you think it is about.

Comments like these make me absolutely sick.

scblack

01-09-2006, 08:46 AM

I'm not trying to pick on anyone in particular with this comment.

However I am absolutly amazed that there are so many people in this thread that are concerned about what it will do to our image, or that it was this poor guys fault.

Take a good long hard look at yourselves people. If you are making comments like this there is seriously something very wrong with how you look at things

This poor guy was killed. It could be that a family has lost a Father, Brother, Husband etc etc.

Surely a human life is worth a little more consideration.

Yeah he was older, yeah he possibly stept out when he shouldn't have. Surely the consequence for what ever he did should not be death.

Take a look at your loved ones, pick the person that is closest to you, that you care the most about and imagine that this person was taken away suddenly, and brutally, and then tell me this is about what you think it is about.

Comments like these make me absolutely sick.

Oh well, you're entitled to your opinion. The point COMPLETELY escapes you.

Yeah he was older, yeah he possibly stept out when he shouldn't have. Surely the consequence for what ever he did should not be death.
What an idiotic comment.:rolleyes: Where did I, or any other person say that he DESERVED death.:confused:

Refreshinglygood

01-09-2006, 10:32 AM

Oh well, you're entitled to your opinion. The point COMPLETELY escapes you.
What an idiotic comment.:rolleyes: Where did I, or any other person say that he DESERVED death.:confused:

Thats why I said that that I wasn't attacking anyone in particular champ.

It's not that anyone said that he deserved death, it's that people seem to be dismissing this guys life at all. I'm talking in general brother.

I guess that means that you missed the point champ.

Don't take this as personal. I guess i shouldn't have quoted you, I apologize, it's just that your comment illustrated a complete lack of reflection on what the point actually is. Life and death..

scblack

01-09-2006, 10:43 AM

Thats why I said that that I wasn't attacking anyone in particular champ.

It's not that anyone said that he deserved death, it's that people seem to be dismissing this guys life at all. I'm talking in general brother.

I guess that means that you missed the point champ.

Don't take this as personal. I guess i shouldn't have quoted you, I apologize, it's just that your comment illustrated a complete lack of reflection on what the point actually is. Life and death..

The point of what I and I think also Johnny were getting at, was commenting on what seems to be the fact that he stepped out in the MIDDLE of the group of riders. I am making the comment that, from REPEATED experience of what older people do, that I reckon it's VERY possibly that he did simply step out in the middle of them.

That is in no way diminishing the sad reality of this fellows death, which is horrible.

Don't forget, there is always more than one viewpoint on any story. You're focussing on one, I am commenting on another.:cool:

Cruz

01-09-2006, 10:51 AM

As for running red lights, I plead guilty. Traffic lights are designed wholy and solely to manage the flow of motor vehicles (and pedestrians). There is no room at all for bikes in terms of intersection design. So of course we run red lights.

So where did you come up with this little gem of information? They are designed for all road users, bicycles included.

Imagine what would have happened to the riders if a car or truck took off fast from the lights and cleaned up a heap of riders?

Would we all be saying, "Why did the driver pull out in front of a heap of bike riders?"

Or, "Why didnt they all stop at the red light like they are supposed to?"

cellardoor

01-09-2006, 11:02 AM

I cant belive anyone is upset that the media has sensationalised this issue.
News Flash. THATS WHAT THE NEWS DOES. IT IS ITS ONE AND ONLY PURPOSE. Sensationalise and thus sell papers.
Sometimes you end up on the wrong side of the papers and thats the price you pay for buying them, reading them, and feeding the great machine.

How is 200 plus bikes riding at 30 to 50 kph unsafe. If it is then the hundreds of cars driving at 50 to 100 Kph must be just as unsafe. I mean really. Id rather be hit by a bike at 40kph then a car at 80kph any day of the week.

Cars brake the law EVERYDAY. Who does not speed a little (every now and then) Fucking nobody thats who. Everybody breaks the law a little. And if you claim otherwise then you are either kidding yourself or belong to the 1% of true law abiding road users.

People die on the roads everyday, its the price we pay for flying around on or in chunks of steal. We pay for the convineance of cars and roads with their deaths (or our own deaths if we happen to be on the wrong end of lady luck that day) If you dont want people to die on the road then make the speed limit 20kph everywhere, all the time. Or build a million bridges and tunnels so nobody ever had to cross the road. Unrealistic you say? we'll I guess we just have to keep on killing each other then.

These deaths would be far less if everybody obeyed the rules. But most of us dont and the majority holds the power. As right or wrong as that may be.

Arete

01-09-2006, 11:11 AM

From the eyewitness account I read, several riders went down in the incident. That would suggest that the rider was not going around stopped riders as an individual, but that the pack was in motion, not that I can say anything for sure, but that's what it suggests to me.

I also read that the man indicated via waving his intention to cross. Thus I would suspect that the menatilty of the man was "It's my turn to cross, bloody stop ya bastards." Which is probably what I would be thinking, however is does sound as if he stepped out into a moving pack of riders who were breaking the law.

By that token, if had of been in a car, driven out into the pack and mown down a bunch of cyclists breaking the law, what would we be reading?

As such I believe the cyclist shoul receive the same penalty a motorist who ran a red light and killed someone as a result, but I don't think for one minute that we should be villifying him in the fashion the media are. I'm sure he doesn't feel too good about the incident.

As for riding in the city, I do it on my BMX during street rides rather than to commute. Much like Johnny, I obeyed the rules for a while and it did nothing to alter the way I was treated on the road, so now I do what the hell I like, following the basic principle of "cover my own ass, keep moving and don't hit stuff".

As for running lights, a while back myself, Johnny and RCOH rode through a red light and not 30 seconds later there was a hit and run that seriously injured a pedestrain right where we would have been waiting for the light... sometimes it's safer to run the light.

To get to city rides I park at Milson's Point and ride over the bridge. As I do it at the same time every city ride, I often pass a guy I've named "the light Nazi" Every time he sees me, he swerves at me and yells "LIGHTS!!!". I lean over my shoulder and yell "SIG HEILl!!!". About a month ago we clipped bars and he stopped to have a go at me, fist back ready to take a swing... I laughed it off and another guy stopped and helped defuse the situation. To top it all off he did it again last time I crossed the bridge. Being so angry when he commutes can't help his interaction with the other traffic.

johnny

01-09-2006, 11:25 AM

However I am absolutly amazed that there are so many people in this thread that are concerned about what it will do to our image, or that it was this poor guys fault.

Comments like these make me absolutely sick.When police attempt to understand how some one has been murdered, killed or the coroner works out how some one died, this is not diminishing the losses of people in anyway. Just the same, when we hypothesise on what actually happened, we are also trying to piece together what the circumstances were and how it happened in an attempt to simply understand the issue. Blame is not necessarily the issue, it's the mechanics of the event that bothers us. Nowhere has anyone ever made an attempt to say anyone deserved any type of consequence, we're just trying to work out what happened.

Plus, mate, hundreds of thousands of people die everyweek, some of them are not old men who've had a long life that are hit by bikes or die of pneumonia, some are children filled with drugs, given guns and pushed into battle. Some are mothers who die of starvation whilst holding their dead child. Do you get upset about these things every day? I know it bothers me deeply, but this is life, and without death, there would be no life. It is an inevitability that must be accepted. A certain level of dettachment must be made to an every day event that will happen to us all in the end. IT's sad that his family is now without him, it is sad that one day your family will be without you, but this is a personal tragedy, not a universal one. Everyone experiences loss, it's not something that we should all share with equal concern, the world would not work if it was.

Humans all have to have a level of self interest, if this man's death will affect you and your life, then it is something that you must rationally consider. THis is a bike forum, if his death affects our riding, it is something that we are FORCED to consider. Given the choice, I'm sure we'd all rather not have to.

I cant belive anyone is upset that the media has sensationalised this issue.
News Flash. THATS WHAT THE NEWS DOES. IT IS ITS ONE AND ONLY PURPOSE. Sensationalise and thus sell papers.
We all understand this, I'm sure. Doesn't make it any less frustrating though......

Refreshinglygood

01-09-2006, 11:50 AM

That is in no way diminishing the sad reality of this fellows death,
.:cool:

That is exactly what you have done even if it wasn't your purpose.

Refreshinglygood

01-09-2006, 11:59 AM

we're just trying to work out what happened.

Are we?. you speak collectively. I was making an observation. Go and read the other posts and tell me that your point is collective.

[/QUOTE]
Plus, mate, hundreds of thousands of people die everyweek, some of them are not old men who've had a long life that are hit by bikes or die of pneumonia, some are children filled with drugs, given guns and pushed into battle. Some are mothers who die of starvation whilst holding their dead child. Do you get upset about these things every day? I know it bothers me deeply, but this is life, and without death, there would be no life. It is an inevitability that must be accepted. A certain level of dettachment must be made to an every day event that will happen to us all in the end. IT's sad that his family is now without him, it is sad that one day your family will be without you, but this is a personal tragedy, not a universal one. Everyone experiences loss, it's not something that we should all share with equal concern, the world would not work if it was.
[/QUOTE]

No shit Sherlock. They are all tragedies.

This is not an everyday event. At least not in my town.

I think this is more about distancing ourselves from the responsability.

I would suggest that most of us have ignored the rules of the road at some point. Believe it or not this can put your own life and others at risk.

cokeonspecialtwodollars

01-09-2006, 12:00 PM

I think the law with regard to traffic lights is that green does not automatically give you right of passage, the intersection must be safe to enter before you do so. Same goes for pedestrians just because the little green man is up doesn't mean I will walk out infront of vehicle, it makes it hard for me to plead they are in the wrong if I am dead.

johnny

01-09-2006, 12:04 PM

No shit Sherlock.
Calm down, be nice, or stop posting in this thread.

Refreshinglygood

01-09-2006, 12:07 PM

What an idiotic comment.:rolleyes: W

Be nice! come on Johnny, be fair.

johnny

01-09-2006, 12:12 PM

Refreshinglygood

01-09-2006, 12:22 PM

He had his go, you were allowed yours back. I was not antagonistic to you in anyway, yet you were rude to me because you are being emotional.

If you or anyone else involved in this discussion is rude any further, you/they will be excluded from the conversation.

I appreciate your point Johnny. I appreciate that you feel that you were not being rude, however if you read my posts you might see that I actually find this kind of dismissal as you put it "rude"

The fact that you do not intend to be rude does not mean that you haven't offended.
As far as being emotional, yep, this is a pretty heavy topic, it is actually ok to have emotions about these things.

Part of the reason for joining a forum is to learn, part of the reason is to exchange ideas, part of the reason is to challange your own ideas and beliefs, as well as others ideas and beliefs. Often you cannot do this without lossing a little skin.
Don't be so sensitive.

It is important to have differeing opinion, in fact it is esential for lively debate.

johnny

01-09-2006, 12:30 PM

if you read my posts you might see that I actually find this kind of dismissal as you put it "rude"
Don't be so sensitive.
The matter does not need to be discussed anymore as far as I can see.

cileo

01-09-2006, 01:53 PM

Gentlemen, Gentleman ... now, now. *cough*

For interstaters, ie: those not in Melboring, Treadly & Me's blog has a superb roundup of sorts about the incident (see stuff below).

Wheels of Justice send out a media release on Tuesday (http://www.woj.com.au/2006/08/29/wheels-of-justice-media-release/), we've got some nibbles of interest thus far. Problem is we probably sound too sensible and polite for the meedya ranters to get an angle on us, although The Age and other media outlets have contacted us.

Also on Tuesday, Scratchy did a great interview on Triple J's Hack (http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/hack/podcast/) regarding the McGee case. I'll get around to updating the Wheels of Justice website probably over the weekend, there's been so much crap to monitor this week.

SKCC did a memorial ride (http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/cyclists-honour-hell-ride-victim/2006/09/01/1156817069723.html) this morning. No egg-throwing citizens in sight. No coverage in any News Limited press either. I don't think I'd be the only one here who's shat with the reportage so far.

Damn intrigued about News Limited editorial mentality, a lot of the stuff published thus far is so fcuking ridiculous to the point I'm seriously considering making a complaint to the Press Council. Probably fat load of good that would do though, if it bleeds it leads blahblahblah, we have the right to publish community attitudes blahblahblah.

*****************

The death of a pedestrian makes hell for all riders (http://treadly.thingoid.com/2006/08/31/james-gould/)
Posted on Thursday 31 August 2006

The death of James Gould has been much on my mind since I first heard the news on the weekend. As with any senseless road trauma, I am horrified at Mr Gould’s death and I have found the eyewitness accounts of Mr Gould’s dying moments particularly harrowing. My condolences go to his friends.

With regard to the cyclist, I feel sympathy for anyone who inadvertently takes a life but this incident occurred as a direct result of his own recklessness and he will need to reconcile his conscience to that as best he can. Certainly a fine for failing to stop at a red light is not sufficient penalty for the loss of life.

The broader implications—for the Hell Ride specifically and Melbourne cyclists in general—is likely to be profound, and without wishing to disrespect Mr Gould’s memory I would like to discuss some of these things here.

(more in article)

toodles

01-09-2006, 01:54 PM

Where's Ryan when we need him... He has a background in journalism IIRC, he might be able to let us know when it became fair game for journalists to embellish facts, incite hostility and twist public opinion.

I no longer buy or read the paper and the TV in my house stays off until something intelligent (ie. cartoons, porn or MTB dvds) come on. I literally can not stand to watch current affairs programs anymore and I bite my tongue when my work colleagues discuss "real world" events, citing "facts" they've ascertained from television documentaries.

When did putting a microphone in someones face and putting them in front of a camera or on air make them an omniscient source of all that is truthful? Conspiracy theorists continually claim the government is trying to pull the wool over our eyes regarding all matter of subjects, but how would we know any better if they were telling the truth?

Looking around many of the posts I've read on Farkin, I see a lot of people claiming how distorted the media's portayal of MTBers and cyclists is, yet the same people reply in other topics citing information that CNN or Today Tonight has lent them.

Ah screw it.. it's Friday I'm off to get shit-faced.

Refreshinglygood

01-09-2006, 03:52 PM

Ah screw it.. it's Friday I'm off to get shit-faced.

Thats the way, i'm with ya!!!!

Have one for Mr Gould, and have one for the poor bastard that hit him, now thats gonna be a heavy load to carry.

cellardoor

01-09-2006, 04:09 PM

Funny thing is I havnt heard anything about this incident except here on Farkin. Now whilst I dont go hunting the news out I dont blind myself to it either. Maybe this isnt as big a deal as ppl are making out. And even if it is everyone will have forgotton about it by next week when the media is targeting Migrants or Junkies or the School system or whatever.

(The public image of bike riders I mean. Im sure the death of this man will still be big deal to his family and friends next week)

Ryan

01-09-2006, 04:25 PM

Where's Ryan when we need him... He has a background in journalism IIRC, he might be able to let us know when it became fair game for journalists to embellish facts, incite hostility and twist public opinion.

I no longer buy or read the paper and the TV in my house stays off until something intelligent (ie. cartoons, porn or MTB dvds) come on. I literally can not stand to watch current affairs programs anymore and I bite my tongue when my work colleagues discuss "real world" events, citing "facts" they've ascertained from television documentaries.

Answered your own question there dude, the existence of said "current affairs" programs is proof positive that it's fair game for "journalists" (I can't bring myself to call the fucktards at ACA/TT journalists without containing it in quotation marks) to embellish facts, provide only one side of the story, incite intolerance, twist people's words, misquote and generally ride roughshod over any notions of ethics or fair and balanced reporting. There are supposed to be checks and balances (like the Press Council) but they're really toothless tigers who rarely if ever actually issue judgements against journalists or their employers.

This is 99.9% of the reason why my background is in 'serious' journalism. It's an evil, soulless, backstabbing, cuntfaced industry that I couldn't get myself far enough away from in a million lifetimes.