Religious Interference in State Schools. [Archive]

NCR600

13-11-2006, 08:02 PM

Further to Little Johnny Liberal's chaplains in state schools plan:

My girlfriend is a science teacher in a state high school in a low socio-economic area in the outer suburbs of Sydney.

Recently her school had a visit from a group of very hip looking model types representing the evangelical Hillsong 'church'.

They approached the Principal and Deputy offering to organise a working bee, to be attended by 2000 Hillsong people and basically give the school a clean up, paint the fences, do repairs etc. on the agreement that they could have a 'fair' for the kids, allegedly with Australian Idol 'celebrities' and a whole bunch of music and other 'fun' stuff.

Surprisingly the management have agreed to what is tantamount to letting Hillsong have a recruitment drive in a public highschool.

My girl suspects that the deputy is involved with Hillsong.

The area is one of a high Pacific Islander population, many of whom belong to various other churches and religious organisations, and when you have the Pacific Islander liason lady saying things like:

"the biggest problem for Pacific Islander and Maori youth in this area is the churches their parents belong to. They force the kids to spend all weekend at church services and fund raising events, and give a huge percentage of their already meagre wages to the church, and then they wonder why the kids aren't doing well at school."

You have to wonder what the bloody hell the Principal and deputy think they are doing letting friggin' Hillsong get their hooks into the kids as well.

Religion of any sort has no place in public education. Never in this country have people been so polarised on the matter, and allowing 'church' groups into public schools can only be a negative and disruptive influence on student's lives. If you want your kids to get a religious education, send them to a private school where they can be with others of a similar denomination or belief.

We are a secular state. There is, and should always be a separation between the church and the state.

Rant over. I'd like to hear some of the teacher's opinions on this topic.

Regan of Gong

13-11-2006, 08:20 PM

An interesting topic.

I've never really been into Hillsong. Too commercial I've thought, although I hope they're doing a top job with what they're actually teaching.

As long as the kid's still have the oppurtunity to choose their relgious affiliation and nothing is forced or they become ostracised for doing/not doing so then there's no problem with it as I see it.

Although there's also the problem of how forced upon the religious aspect is to the kids. Sometimes religious groups are out there just to make a good impression with the kids to encourage them into church. As long it's all personal choice...

Anyway, at the end of the day, you get a clean school and the kid's are getting a day off school at the very least.

robmundall

13-11-2006, 08:28 PM

I think the heads may be thinking about the benifits of the hillsong people comming, ie: Painting fences, Cleaning the school and random repairs.
Now I am not sure what grades the school is because you didn't say but if it was a primary school lots of kids especialy tween girls are very excited about washed up Aussy Idol people.

The thing is though, many of these kids already have a religion becuase of there parents and therefore are not easily pulled into an another religion. If it was a high school I personaly feel many of the kids won't give a crap and see that the speaches from the hillsong people are just there to pull them in.

For example, at our school we had all these videos shown to us one day that were obviously army recrutment videos. Everyone realised this and no one really payed much attention to them.

But I do agree with you when you say chruch should be kept seperate from state. Although it is a woory about the schools not doing this I think it is a real concern that the goverment is not doing this on many occasion when arguing for / against a bill.

Binaural

13-11-2006, 08:44 PM

The Hillsong church annoys me no end, and even if I didn't oppose religious education of any kind in schools I'd want to keep that bunch of reptiles away from preaching to children. Where is the compelling need to use public money to teach religion anyway? To choose the two most common examples, neither christianity and Islam have no particular scholarly merit and at bottom are profoundly anti-intellectual (don't ask why, accept what you are told).

13-11-2006, 08:58 PM

I got a question:

Why do churches have to actually TRY and pull members? If god is so friggin great, why aren't people joining of their own accord?

mtbmamma

13-11-2006, 09:15 PM

I got a question:

Why do churches have to actually TRY and pull members? If god is so friggin great, why aren't people joining of their own accord?

I agree with S, if religions of any denomination are so good why do they have to have recruitment drives. I find this a reptilian approach to enlisting people. You know slimy, slithering in under people's guard. It doesn't matter what religion it is, any fundamentalist group is one of which you should be wary.

I had 13 years at a convent school, I know you would never know if you knew me, but with the Nuns at you all the time it really does turn you away from people with strong beliefs of any sort. Part of their belief is that if you worship at least once a week then you are a good person, what a load of garbage!!!! Some of the most horrible people I have known have been good "Christians". No offence to the good Christians out there.

All Churches of all denominations should be above board in their approach to recruitment. :mad:

McBain

13-11-2006, 09:19 PM

neither christianity and Islam have no particular scholarly merit and at bottom are profoundly anti-intellectualWhy is that?(don't ask why, accept what you are told).Yessir, sorrysir! :p

I agree with the others though - religion and public schooling should be separate. Just as corporate dollars and public schooling should be separate. (When we are talking Hillsong, I regard them more as the corporate than the religion, but same diff).

Kids are gullible - that's just how humans work (when young we need to learn a lot and quickly - as a result for most of us, our critical faculties just aren't as developed as they eventually should be). Anyone with an agenda other than teaching them should be kept as far from their education as possible. (yes, yes, the choice of what to teach them is somewhat subjective, yadda yadda, but so long as I agree with the agenda, all is good :p).

Now I think it is time to get off this computer and go back to reading "The God Delusion" ...

(FWIW, I was sent to Catholic schools, and in that situation it is hard to separate religion from the whole deal - but to their credit, they never tried to confuse us in regards to creationism or anything like that. Then again, Catholics just believe in the church, the God thing is just a side effect ...)

leitch

13-11-2006, 09:29 PM

ok so im at a private school, so it may seem slightly different, but its also non-denominational so its basically the same...

i've got this teacher for modern, and while she's a lovely lady, her greatest downfall is that her devout christianity comes through so much in her teaching. for example, using the phrase "societies evils" when talking about the drug society of nimbin, and refusing to go into any discussion about homosexual families because they "don't really count". those are but two examples of the bullshit we would be fed by her every lesson. its pretty hard to learn anything helpful about the Third Reich when you have a hardcore catholic teacher who has a vendetta against the jews for killing christ, or anything about the northern ireland troubles, because we all no that the protestants started it all and are the scourge of the earth.

in my opinion and from my experiences, value-laden education should be stricken from any curriculum. how can kids be expected to make their own conclusions on the past present and future when they're being taught such predjudiced poo

mtb_slipknot_fan

13-11-2006, 09:37 PM

I got a question:

Why do churches have to actually TRY and pull members? If god is so friggin great, why aren't people joining of their own accord?

Great question, can anyone answer this question??. Personally i will never believe in god unless i see god myself. Guess i will never know if i made the right choice until i die. And i belive in Charles Dawrwin's theory of evolution:cool: more logical than some kooked up story about all of us originating from 2 people.

Binaural

13-11-2006, 09:45 PM

Now I think it is time to get off this computer and go back to reading "The God Delusion" ...

I really want to lay my hands on that, but my local bookstore couldn't organize a murderous jihad against the infidel in Iraq :(

13-11-2006, 10:03 PM

You know, the more I think about it, the more angry I get at religious BS.

Who created us? Dunno. God. Who loves you even when nobody else does? Dunno. Probably God. Who's gonna save you from eternal damnation when you die, and reward you with eternal happiness/bliss? Ah that'd be God too I suppose. Who never bothered appearing in any way despite being all-powerful? Yeah God yet again. You'll never guess who handed us arbitrary rules that require us to deny the use of the logical faculties that he apparently granted us, in order to believe in both said arbitrations and him... I'll give you a clue, it starts with G.

When you deny reality by turning to drugs they call you an addict, a scourge on society. Deny reality by turning to god and all of a sudden you're a role model for the rest of society.

Ideological battle my arse... idiot-logical maybe.

johnny

13-11-2006, 10:07 PM

Forgive them father, for they know not what they say......:rolleyes:

13-11-2006, 10:11 PM

I wonder who will ask for my forgiveness when my hands are around THEIR neck? I know not what I do? Then upgrade my brain from whatever Windows 3.1 equivalent I must be running and stop judging me for what I do, you shithouse fuckin programmer. You couldn't even make Pi equal to a whole number, nor Euler's constant or even Phi.

Binaural

13-11-2006, 10:14 PM

johnny

13-11-2006, 10:26 PM

You couldn't even make Pi equal to a whole number, nor Euler's constant or even Phi.I work in mysterious ways, it's all part of my great plan for the world.

johnny

13-11-2006, 10:27 PM

Honestly...

< < < < this really IS what God looks like!!

13-11-2006, 10:33 PM

I work in mysterious ways, it's all part of my great plan for the world.

Ah right. That same mysterious plan that, regardless of which religion is "correct", is going to send a statistically huge (>>50%) portion of the global population to hell. I like those odds.

Nice communication God. Glad it's clear, obvious, and not twisted bullshit from every politically minded translator from the past 2000 years.

Elbo

13-11-2006, 10:37 PM

I got a question:

Why do churches have to actually TRY and pull members? If god is so friggin great, why aren't people joining of their own accord?
Basically, churches go out into the community to spread the word and try and bring people to Christ, because that's what he said to do.
"Therefore go and make disciples in all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and then teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I ave given you: and be sure of this - that I am with you always, even to the end of the world." Matt Ch 28:19-20

To answer the second part of your question. God gave us a choice to either follow and love him or not to. The way I understand it is that he wants us to love him on our own accord. Take it or leave it. He doesn't want to force us to obey him, he wants us to choose to obey him.
Hope that helps.

One thing that annoys me is when churches preach the 'consumer message'. They say, if you become a Christian you will be rich, have all this stuff, etc. It's all about becoming a christian solely to 'bless' your own personal and monetary tastes. This is the kind of message i've heard from some churches that have tried to copy what hillsong have done. You know, it's all about you, you will be blessed and prosper, etc. In fact, the Bible says it will actually be tougher, you'll be persecuted and all this hard stuff, because you choose to believe.
I believe that the 'consumer message' is wrong, sure God has promised certain things to you if you obey and believe, but to say to people that they will generally be better off and their material circumstances will suddenly change is not right in my opinion.
Another thing is, sometimes a church can get too caught up in running programs etc, which I think is dangerous. Many churches 'recruit' new workers rather than new believers and shuffle them into running certain programs, never really commiting to helping new believers, just helping the church get bigger and better.

johnny

13-11-2006, 10:40 PM

Ah right. That same mysterious plan that, regardless of which religion is "correct", is going to send a statistically huge (>>50%) portion of the global population to hell. I like those odds.

Nice communication God. Glad it's clear, obvious, and not twisted bullshit from every politically minded translator from the past 2000 years.

You act as if I've got all the answers!? If you'd actually bothered to read my book, you'd see that I created you in my own image. In otherwords, I'm as imperfect as you. Sure I can turn water to wine and I can part seas, but I still have bad days, get drunk and sometimes go on holiday. But I mean give me a break up here, eternity is a farking long time to watch you fools running around screwing up what you've been given!

13-11-2006, 10:42 PM

Basically, churches go out into the community to spread the word and try and bring people to Christ, because that's what he said to do.

To answer the second part of your question. God gave us a choice to either follow and love him or not to. The way I understand it is that he wants us to love him on our own accord. Take it or leave it. He doesn't want to force us to obey him, he wants us to choose to obey him.
Hope that helps.

One thing that annoys me is when churches preach the 'consumer message'. They say, if you become a Christian you will be rich, have all this stuff, etc. It's all about becoming a christian solely to 'bless' your own personal and monetary tastes. This is the kind of message i've heard from some churches that have tried to copy what hillsong have done. You know, it's all about you, you will be blessed and prosper, etc. In fact, the Bible says it will actually be tougher, you'll be persecuted and all this hard stuff, because you choose to believe.
I believe that the 'consumer message' is wrong, sure God has promised certain things to you if you obey and believe, but to say to people that they will generally be better off and their material circumstances will suddenly change is not right in my opinion.
Another thing is, sometimes a church can get too caught up in running programs etc, which I think is dangerous. Many churches 'recruit' new workers rather than new believers and shuffle them into running certain programs, never really commiting to helping new believers, just helping the church get bigger and better.

Right, so the eternal damnation thing isn't "forcing" us to do anything. Kind of like putting a gun at someone's head doesn't "force" them to hand over the money, it's still their choice right? Why exactly does god give us free will then punish us for using it in a manner contradictory to what we're told to do?

Religion is entirely selfish anyway dude, regardless of whether it's physical or metaphysical. Materialists get something tangible, now, in the real world. Supposedly non-materialistic, apparently altruistic theists are simply trying to gain a benefit at a perceived later point in their existence.

And why do so many Christians use the word "dangerous"? You know what's dangerous? Illogical belief. Blind faith. Having entire freakin wars over your imaginary friends. Then again, what would I know, I'm not god. Yet.

13-11-2006, 10:48 PM

You act as if I've got all the answers!? If you'd actually bothered to read my book, you'd see that I created you in my own image. In otherwords, I'm as imperfect as you. Sure I can turn water to wine and I can part seas, but I still have bad days, get drunk and sometimes go on holiday. But I mean give me a break up here, eternity is a farking long time to watch you fools running around screwing up what you've been given!

If you hadn't been such a dick and wrecked our tower of Babel, I might have actually been able to understand some of the stuff in your friggin book. Broken ye olde english doesn't cut it.

johnny

13-11-2006, 10:57 PM

If you hadn't been such a dick and wrecked our tower of Babel, Hahaha! Yeah Right! I get CNN, I see what you fools do to each other. As if I'd let you in here to fark my sh!t up too! And don't go blaming me from hell either. Everything was bliss and fig leaves until my idiot brother, Lucifer, decided he wanted to play too but couldn't be bothered growing his own virus...I mean planet.

Choice is simple, chill and be cool, you can hang with me. Carry on like a tool and fark sh!t up, you hang with my bro. Oh yeah, I made sure that the majority of chilled people are the thin good looking ones too, cha-ching!

Yo! Cleopatra, Marralyn, wanna go for a skinny dip.....in the Sea of Tranquility? :cool:

Elbo

13-11-2006, 11:05 PM

Right, so the eternal damnation thing isn't "forcing" us to do anything. Kind of like putting a gun at someone's head doesn't "force" them to hand over the money, it's still their choice right? Why exactly does god give us free will then punish us for using it in a manner contradictory to what we're told to do?
Mate, a person is always going to have a choice. Nothing can actually force them to do one particular thing. Even if the consequences are the taking of one's life, the person in that situation is not forced beyond no return to obey. In the case of the gun to the head, the choice to hand over the money or not is still there regardless of the consequences.

Religion is entirely selfish anyway dude, regardless of whether it's physical or metaphysical. Materialists get something tangible, now, in the real world. Supposedly non-materialistic, apparently altruistic theists are simply trying to gain a benefit at a perceived later point in their existence.
Depends as to which way you look at it. If you want personal benefits out of it the yes it is selfish. If you want to obey God and do what it says in the Bible, it depends on which way you approach it as to whether you can label it as being selfish.

And why do so many Christians use the word "dangerous"? You know what's dangerous? Illogical belief. Blind faith. Having entire freakin wars over your imaginary friends. Then again, what would I know, I'm not god. Yet.
Ha Ha, ok any arguement will do, mate. Depending on what angle you come from, anything can be considered dangerous. MTBing is dangerous, applying physics is dangerous, attitudes are dangerous.

13-11-2006, 11:12 PM

Mate, a person is always going to have a choice. Nothing can actually force them to do one particular thing. Even if the consequences are the taking of one's life, the person in that situation is not forced beyond no return to obey. In the case of the gun to the head, the choice to hand over the money or not is still there regardless of the consequences.

Depends as to which way you look at it. If you want personal benefits out of it the yes it is selfish. If you want to obey God and do what it says in the Bible, it depends on which way you approach it as to whether you can label it as being selfish.

Ha Ha, ok any arguement will do, mate. Depending on what angle you come from, anything can be considered dangerous. MTBing is dangerous, applying physics is dangerous, attitudes are dangerous.

So you're saying that God gives us a "choice" without "forcing" us to do anything, then punishes us (eternally I might add... for finite misdeeds) if we actually make use of that choice to exercise our apparent free will (which on its own merits pretty much annihilates the concept of religion IMO). That's fair and even-handed. Where do I sign up?

Everything is selfish. If it wasn't, there'd be no motivation to do it. We've had massive discussions about this before.

And yeah nice turnaround. Everything is dangerous, just some things are apparently worthy of being labeled as such... like a church running programs.

PINT of Stella, mate!

14-11-2006, 03:13 AM

Honestly...

< < < < this really IS what God looks like!!

Great! I've been meaning to have a word and seeing as I'm booked in to spending my eternal damnation down at your bro's I probably won't get another opportunity to get a few questions answered:

1: Who really shot JFK?

2: When is Gun's and Roses 'Chinese Democracy' coming out?

3: Should I have the chicken or the fish for tea tonight?

Oh, and if you could be a pal and help me find my locker key, that'd be sweet!

Allah u'ackbar!

toodles

14-11-2006, 06:46 AM

Mate, a person is always going to have a choice. Nothing can actually force them to do one particular thing. Even if the consequences are the taking of one's life, the person in that situation is not forced beyond no return to obey. In the case of the gun to the head, the choice to hand over the money or not is still there regardless of the consequences.

You're joking right? Some kind of fuckin deal on the table right there... An eternity of pain and suffering for what? Swearing? Pre-marital sex? Sounds fair to me :rolleyes:

If He didn't want us to f*ck before we were married then maybe conjuring up genitals that appeared after marriage might have been the way to go. For fuck's sake, so many of the "rules" laid out are so retarded, and so obviously written by humans that it's ridiculous.

Give us free thought, but go to hell if you use it. Give us sex, but go to hell if you have it. Give us pot, but go to hell if you smoke it.

For someone who is supposed to be omniscient and the incarnation of good, he sure comes across as an irrational, vengeful, shallow, sadistic bugger.

Customjimmy

14-11-2006, 07:21 AM

Bloody religion eh, an excuse for 90% of all the bad shit that has ever happened. And Christians, they're great, part of a religion designed by a roman pagan that worships a dude who was of course Jewish. It'd be easy to launch a tirade but there's no point - these people are by definition unreasonable and irrational. Remember you can tell Hillsong what you think when they come - they have to forgive you.

Can Farkin gain tax-free religious status? There's enough members!

mtbmamma

14-11-2006, 07:51 AM

Can Farkin gain tax-free religious status? There's enough members!

I'm sure we could, it's a non profit organisation, isn't it? It could be called Johnny's Farkin Hellsong, we could have Vestal Johnettes to take care of the guys and for the girls we could have the services of the Johnnydales. We could have holidays and they could be called farkindaysoff, we could have ministers and they could be called Little Johnnys. Is there such a thing?????????

Anyway why don't we ask God? He knows everything.........................over to you Johnny, sorry..................god.;)

williamsaztek

14-11-2006, 08:04 AM

Bloody religion eh, an excuse for 90% of all the bad shit that has ever happened.

Maybe just the male species are responsible for 90% of the shit that has ever happened?

I thought The Da Vinci Code pretty much answered all the questions on religion.:eek:

thecat

14-11-2006, 08:05 AM

If electricity comes from the work of electrons then morality must surely be the work of morons.

thecat

14-11-2006, 08:14 AM

I thought The Da Vinci Code pretty much answered all the questions on religion.:eek:

Like that other book it is a work of fiction. Mostly:p

Adrian

14-11-2006, 09:00 AM

Honestly...

< < < < this really IS what God looks like!!

Johnny, I thought you were much more open-minded.

Separate church and public education.. No two ways about it.

If you want to examine the other extreme, look into what's happened in France, and Turkey. No religious symbols allowed in schools. period.

I think in this debate we need to be careful that freedom of expression and freedom of worship are not impeded by state legislation, but I agree that measures need to be taken to remove evangelical events from a secular institution. Letting them in goes completely against the reasons that state education exists in the first place.

FR Drew

14-11-2006, 09:08 AM

If electricity comes from the work of electrons then morality must surely be the work of morons.

I'm kind of fond of another way of looking at it:
Moralists follow the teaching and way of morals,
Taoists follow the teachings and the way of the Tao,
Bhuddists follow the teachings and the way of the Bhudda,
Marxists follow the doctrine of Marx,

I'm all for Catalysts...

Mooooooooooooo:D

(Insert Larson Far side cow cartoon here)

gravelclimber

14-11-2006, 09:25 AM

I'm standing up for religion on this one. All children should be forced to worship the God of the Old Testament (the one common to Christianity, Judaism and Islam).

He's jealous and proud of it, petty, vindictive, unjust, unforgiving, racist, an ethnic-cleanser urging his people on to acts of genocide.*

What role model could be better for today's winner-take-all society?

* according to Richard Dawkins whose always correct on these matters

ona rampage

14-11-2006, 09:28 AM

For someone who is supposed to be omniscient and the incarnation of good, he sure comes across as an irrational, vengeful, shallow, sadistic bugger.

Too true.

Look at little Sophie, the little girl in Sydney that so far has been hit by two cars, all none of which were her fault. A little girl, couldn't be a sinner as she is too young, seems like a loverly little person, who has been put through more pain and tribulations then I would wish on my worst enemy.

What possible reason would 'god' have to do this? And don't try the 'he has his reasons and ways which we can't understand' rubbish, cause that has to be one of the biggest religious cop out arguments around.

IMHO Religion is a way of easing the concern that the great masses have about the things they don't understand (floods, what happens when I die, etc).

johnny

14-11-2006, 09:37 AM

1: Who really shot JFK? Me, I told him Marilyn was mine, the guy was a complete twat! I had to move my summer house from the moon to Venus because of that nosey wanker! :mad:

2: When is Gun's and Roses 'Chinese Democracy' coming out? When China IS a democracy or that dude takes the frikkin KFC bucket of his head! Whichever comes first.

3: Should I have the chicken or the fish for tea tonight? The fish has high levels of mercury in it and the chicken won't be cooked all the way through .....you choose.

Oh, and if you could be a pal and help me find my locker key, that'd be sweet! Why would I do that when it was me that hid it in the first place??!! Heaven can get pretty boring sometimes.

Allah u'ackbar!Yeah whatever, just don't blow up dude!

God outy.

They did WHAT in my name?! Time for another flood I think.....Tell my son to get down off the cross and get a job. It's time he stopped hanging around and started helping me out here.....stupid kids....

TonyG

14-11-2006, 09:53 AM

1: Who really shot JFK?

Don’t listen to Johnny on this; I have it on good authority that it was the second mole hitting on Shannon Nolle.
That seemed a lot funny before I started writing it.
Anyhow, religion is there for the feeble minded who can’t come to grips with the fact that they will never know why they are here. Just get over it and enjoy life and stop blowing each other up over it. The answer isn’t in the bottom of a bomb!!

NeBoS

14-11-2006, 10:01 AM

I think that people in here are getting somewhat off track - the question here isnt weather or not god(s) actually exist, but rather the issue of forcing religion into sponge-like minds.

We all know what the majority of farkiners think about christianity, and it seems to be quite a heated topic in here...

Little off topic, but my opinion about hillsong:
Me - i was greatly influenced by my late grandmother, Dena. She was a seventh day adventist, one of the minority christian groups that operate in small quaint churches of around 30-40 people. Her beliefs were not fanatical, but more about social values and helping those less fortunate than you, something of which she dedicated her whole life to. This reasoning has rubbed-off on me, and i share the same beliefs. This is what christianity should be about. The original features of the faith was primarily a selfless act.

Hillsong on the other hand - dont get me started!

I have a real problem with churches like this (christian city, hillsong etc). I call this style of worship (if you can call it that) 'Mass Preaching', where one primary figure casts their views onto thousands of fanatics. I really believe that much of the spirit (not the holy spirit :p ) of the original idea is lost with this style of religious leadership, and that these churches simple make wealthy people feel good about themselves for attending church and giving tything - god doesnt care about how much money you can give - he wants you out there on the front line, he want to see how much love you can give. My point is, these churches have been twisted, altered to a point of leaniancy that sells itself short of gods original word.

My view on the public education system is that religion of any sort should not be taught - young minds should be given the opportunity to find their own way in the world of religion. Schools should be a place for science, english and art.
I suppose the conflict lies with teaching evolution - some argue that if you teach evolution, its only fair that religion is also taught, which sounds silly IMO.
IF it happens that religion is taught i our schools - students, regardless of age, should be able to make a decision wether or not they want to be included in the class.

Arete

14-11-2006, 10:11 AM

NeBoS

14-11-2006, 10:16 AM

Drizz

14-11-2006, 10:39 AM

Hillsong has the most insidious marketing campagin I've ever seen. At uni at the beginning of semester I watched two attractive girls go up to guys waiting in the queue for enrolment, lollipops in mouths, hair twirling and flirting their little righteous, cute asses off to a captive audience in order to push Hillsong brochures. It was almost as bad as a waitress in a titty bar angling for tips.

II tried to go to bible study to get to the chicks. I fell asleep in the prayer session, I am off communion elsewhere I guess. :rolleyes: In the end I ran out of patient, there is only so much circular reasoning one can take before you go insane.

I actually have no issues with churches running "Community" events in conjunction with a school as long as its not a cover for a conversion session. As for Hillsong, I rank them much lower than the Mormons! Anyone seen the HillSong Church Complex in Baulkham Hills (http://www2.hillsong.com/church/default.asp?pid=72)? That is NOT a house of god! Imagine the amount of money spent building that monstrosity and what it can do to actually help the needy?

I prefer the humble churches with a pastor thats approachable and focus on helping you rather than shoving religious crap down your throat. Televangelists are from the deepest pits of hell and needed to be send back to where they came from.

Hahaha, Its the same at UNSW - everyday you walk out the main gates and you are hounded by fanatical students forcing you to take pamphlets and other printed crap. Most of it ends up as landfill...

Yes, CBS! I still remember from my uni days. I actually been to one of their session. :o Are Children Born of Satan still there?

Dozer

14-11-2006, 11:13 AM

Great question, can anyone answer this question??. Personally i will never believe in god unless i see god myself. Guess i will never know if i made the right choice until i die. And i belive in Charles Dawrwin's theory of evolution:cool: more logical than some kooked up story about all of us originating from 2 people.

Okay..........so where did you come from? A you a scientific wonder of nature that exists because two atoms got drunk and had hot sex? People always brand those that have religous beliefs as blind to reality or whatever, that is a load of fucking shit.
Religion is something that you or your family believe in. If I wanted to learn more and preach about science I would, if I wanted to learn more about the bible and preach it then I'd do that too. It is a choice that people can make but there is that slight say........01% of people in the world who have religion forced onto them and they live by it. That is the life that they know.

I think the Hillsong deal where they do some work around the school provided they can talk to some students and show them what Hillsong may offer isn't too bad a thing because the students will have a choice to whether they can follow more of Hillsong or stick to what they know. It is education after all and the school would obviously appreciate the clean up etc.

When you have the situation where religion is forced onto people and they have to live by the "rules" knowing that God will throw a lightning bolt at them if they do wrong is going down a path that they believe is the right thing. Who are we to judge? I hate the fact that we have soldiers in other countries fighting people that they don't even know, what can I do about it? I can do my best to believe that they are doing something for the good of the people in the world who think they are living the right life.........

Religion is a choice. When a Jehovas witness knocks on my door asking if I am interested in what he has to say I'll politely say that I'm not interested and wish him a good day. I made a choice.

ona rampage

14-11-2006, 11:20 AM

When you have the situation where religion is forced onto people .........

Religion is a choice. When a Jehovas witness knocks on my door asking if I am interested in what he has to say I'll politely say that I'm not interested and wish him a good day. I made a choice.

But isn't that Jehovas witness trying to force religion onto you? I don't think you invited them to come knocking on your door (early on a weekend, when you are trying to sleep), and/or save your soul. In fact they are forcing their view on you, at your home, regardless of your beliefs or wants.

I am an agnostic, but I do not go around knocking on people's doors telling them, nor preaching to people at lunch in the mall, nor pamphet dropping. Why do these religious saviours feel they have the right, let alone the responsibility, to convince me to support their imaginary friend?

:mad:

Dozer

14-11-2006, 11:48 AM

gravelclimber

14-11-2006, 11:56 AM

It is a choice that people can make but there is that slight say........01% of people in the world who have religion forced onto them and they live by it. That is the life that they know.

Have you travelled to many developing countries? That statement is completely wrong. Most of the world has religion forced upon them. We and other modern secular nations are the exception (to a degree - Hillsong and its ilk would like to change that)..

THE YETI

14-11-2006, 12:48 PM

Ok firstly, i dont know how anyone could say that religion is about aiding the less fortunate.If the churches sold up every piece of real-estate they own in the world, the money gained would put just about everyone on parr.

But more to the point of the original question, im a high-school student and as such i think that we should have more of a say into what happens within the schooling system.

I realise that a large proportion of society still believes in the all-mighty god or whatever. But i still dont see how throwing some god preitching wanker in amongst the students (for 'guidence') is going to help anyone. Is that not what the state employs school councillors for?

I am an athiest (as apparently most of the farkiners are). I really HATE the way that religion can be forced upon us.State schools still force us to attend scripture up until year 8or9.

Religious fidures always make the argument that religion is a choice for each individual to make and that they are there to guide you, not pursuade you to believe or to change your thoughts. EVERYONE gets pissed at a car sales-person that bugs you and crams random crap down your throat that you couldnt care less about. How is this different to religion being forced down your throat. I dont want this info, so i should not have it forced upon me.

If i wanted a religious education then i would attend a religious school.

johnny

14-11-2006, 01:15 PM

But isn't that Jehovas witness trying to force religion onto you? I don't think you invited them to come knocking on your door (early on a weekend, when you are trying to sleep), and/or save your soul. In fact they are forcing their view on you, at your home, regardless of your beliefs or wants.:mad:Is it really that much of a problem though (disregarding at 8am Saturday morning of course)? Just say no and close the door. Same goes for telemarketers, say no and hang up. I don't see why people get so upset over the advertising of religion, it's not really that intrusive.

Have you travelled to many developing countries? That statement is completely wrong. Most of the world has religion forced upon them. We and other modern secular nations are the exception (to a degree - Hillsong and its ilk would like to change that)..What do you mean by "forced upon them"? By the state, communally, by the family?

Australia: 20,264,082
Austria: 8,192,880
Belgium: 10,379,067
Brazil: 188,078,227
Bulgaria: 7,385,367
Canada: 33,098,932
Chile: 16,134,219
China: 1,313,973,713
Columbia: 43,593,035
Czech R.: 10,235,455
Denmark: 5,450,661
Finland: 5,231,372
France: 60,876,136
Germany: 82,422,299
Greece: 10,688,058
Hungary: 9,981,334
India: 1,095,351,995
Indonesia: 245,452,739
Ireland: 4,062,235
Italy: 58,133,509
Japan: 127,463,611
DPRK: 23,113,019
ROK: 48,846,823
Malaysia: 24,385,858
Mexico: 107,449,525
Netherlands: 16,491,461
Norway: 4,610,820
Paraguay: 6,506,464
Peru: 28,302,603
Philippines: 89,468,677
Poland: 38,536,869
Portugal: 10,605,870
Russia: 142,893,540
South Africa: 44,187,637
Spain: 40,397,842
Sweden: 9,016,596
Switzerland: 7,523,934
Thailand: 64,631,595
Turkey: 70,413,958
Ukraine: 46,710,816
UK: 60,609,153
USA: 298,444,215 (as of July 2006, has popped 300m since)
Venezuala: 25,730,435
Vietnam: 84,402,966
Taiwan: 23,036,087

All these countries have religious freedom (among many others not listed from Central Asia, Africa, the Pacific etc.). Now of course there may be sub communities in each and every country that are clandestinely able to force religion on thier young, but that would obviously be a huge minority relative to overall population. So what does all this add up to?

With just China, India, Russia, Brazil, Japan, the UK, the USA, Indonesia and Mexico, you've got around half the world's population. To say that people have religion forced upon them is to say that they are aware of a choice, but are not alowed to make that choice, thus they are FORCED into a postion they would otherwise not take. I don't think I can agree with your assertion.

NeBoS

14-11-2006, 01:17 PM

Yes, CBS! I still remember from my uni days. I actually been to one of their session. :o Are Children Born of Satan still there?

Pfft, if thats not a cult, i dont know what is, with a name like that :). There are still a number of christian groups around the campus, but their not that overbearing compared to the UNSW Resistance political association - these guys are ruthless!!!

Ok firstly, i dont know how anyone could say that religion is about aiding the less fortunate.If the churches sold up every piece of real-estate they own in the world, the money gained would put just about everyone on parr.

Christianity is (was??) based on selfless acts. You couldnt really say this about churches like hillsong etc. Just because churches sit on very valuable land, doesnt mean that cant or dont help others. The churches are not owned by anyone, they are not-profit organisations (most of the time), the land is forfited by the council to supply a religious place, therefor owned by the council (the land that is), although im not sure about the buildings, expensive cars etc...

FR Drew

14-11-2006, 01:25 PM

Nearly 2 weeks ago when this whole "chaplains in schools" thingy was floated, one of the Federal ministers was on Radio National talking about it.

She said that the choice was totally non denominational and that the schools and parents had the right to choose whoever they thought was an appropriate person to fill the role.

This was then followed up by her saying that The Government reserved the right to veto the choice of the school/parents if they saw fit.

I'd put money on the fact that if little freds school and parents body decided that they wanted an Islamic chaplain at the school (after all, they are just there for guidance/mentoring, not for religious education or indoctrination so we're told by Mr Howard) that they'd get the big veto.

Bah, better to add "Stranger in a Strange Land" to the year 12 English reading syllabus.

THE YETI

14-11-2006, 01:26 PM

All these countries have religious freedom (among many others not listed from Central Asia, Africa, the Pacific etc.). Now of course there may be sub communities in each and every country that are clandestinely able to force religion on thier young, but that would obviously be a huge minority relative to overall population. So what does all this add up to?

With just China, India, Russia, Brazil, Japan, the UK, the USA, Indonesia and Mexico, you've got around half the world's population. To say that people have religion forced upon them is to say that they are aware of a choice, but are not alowed to make that choice, thus they are FORCED into a postion they would otherwise not take. I don't think I can agree with your assertion.
'Forced' could (in reality) only be truth when speaking about kids. As someone said earlier, it's much like a sponge. Whatever a child is brought up being told they will believe, i was bought up without a religion, therefore i was given the choice. A child that is brought up with a religion is often tought that it is the only way. Therefore they have choice taken from them.

Christianity is (was??) based on selfless acts. You couldnt really say this about churches like hillsong etc. Just because churches sit on very valuable land, doesnt mean that cant or dont help others. The churches are not owned by anyone, they are not-profit organisations (most of the time), the land is forfited by the council to supply a religious place, therefor owned by the council (the land that is), although im not sure about the buildings, expensive cars etc...

I wasnt saying that they spend the donated money on crap. My point was that they could make a SHITLOAD of $$$ if they sold up, which could then be handed on to the less-fortunate

ona rampage

14-11-2006, 01:27 PM

Is it really that much of a problem though (disregarding at 8am Saturday morning of course)? Just say no and close the door. Same goes for telemarketers, say no and hang up. I don't see why people get so upset over the advertising of religion, it's not really that intrusive.
.

In one way, no it isn't that much of a problem. But, in the vein of forcing religion on people, yes it is. I have made my religious choice (or lack thereof), and I do not need 'salespeople' coming around to my place, uninvited, attempting to sell me their religion.

In some ways it is similar to a Holden saleman door knocking on a Sunday, trying to sell you a car (and lo, on the 8th day the lord did create the commodore, and he was pleased... :D ). It would not be accepted by the majority, and would provoke outrage IMO. So, why is religion so different?

THE YETI

14-11-2006, 01:32 PM

Pfft, if thats not a cult, i dont know what is, with a name like that :). There are still a number of christian groups around the campus, but their not that overbearing compared to the UNSW Resistance political association - these guys are ruthless!!!

What sort of stereotypical crap is that? Children born of satan, does this mean that they cut up little boys in their spare time (its possible) but really. How can you say that about another religion in my eyes that is just hypocrytical SHIT. How is this any different to a christian religious group?

This is what shits me about religion ^^

toodles

14-11-2006, 01:35 PM

Damn I thought religions would have learnt from the controversy surrounding the "interferring" that went on in Catholic schools...

johnny

14-11-2006, 01:35 PM

'Forced' could (in reality) only be truth when speaking about kids. As someone said earlier, it's much like a sponge. Whatever a child is brought up being told they will believe, i was bought up without a religion, therefore i was given the choice. A child that is brought up with a religion is often tought that it is the only way. Therefore they have choice taken from them.I think that's a long bow TBH. I think this can only be said to be the case if the child is not aware of any other religion or the fact that they can just disbelieve. If they are aware of other beliefs, they have to specifically be forced not to follow them.

It's all about your interpretation of forced, I guess. To me, forced is when you know there is a choice yet you are denied the right to make that choice, freely, on your own.

johnny

14-11-2006, 01:38 PM

In one way, no it isn't that much of a problem. But, in the vein of forcing religion on people, yes it is. I have made my religious choice (or lack thereof), and I do not need 'salespeople' coming around to my place, uninvited, attempting to sell me their religion.

In some ways it is similar to a Holden saleman door knocking on a Sunday, trying to sell you a car (and lo, on the 8th day the lord did create the commodore, and he was pleased... :D ). It would not be accepted by the majority, and would provoke outrage IMO. So, why is religion so different?Well not really, we've had door to door salesmen for ages now. Foxtel, optus, energy suppliers and so on have been doing it for yonks!

THE YETI

14-11-2006, 01:45 PM

I think that's a long bow TBH. I think this can only be said to be the case if the child is not aware of any other religion or the fact that they can just disbelieve. If they are aware of other beliefs, they have to specifically be forced not to follow them.

It's all about your interpretation of forced, I guess. To me, forced is when you know there is a choice yet you are denied the right to make that choice, freely, on your own.

Well i guess that technically you are right, but the fact remains. A child will basically believe anything if they are tought this from a young enough age.

There was a girl that was abused by her drunken father and forced to live with the dogs. Which caused her to adabt the behaviour of the dogs in order to become part of the pack, when rescued the girl could not speak, and often moved around on hands and knees.

I think that is the perfect example of how easily a childs mind can be manipulated. So i feel that religion (although not as severe) is much like the story. In that the child know no better and will believe whatever a parent or loved one tells them, as long as they are told this over a long period of time.

gravelclimber

14-11-2006, 01:50 PM

What do you mean by "forced upon them"? By the state, communally, by the family?

By the state sometimes, often by community and family. I did not even imply it was by the state only.

Examples of supposedly free countries that aren't:

Indonesia - seen a distinct lack of religious freedom there myself - in christian and Muslim communities in Sulawesi for example.
Malaysia - some states in the east have virtual Islamic law - no real choice if you're ethnic Malaysian. Even in the bigger cities on the west coast there are religious police. Some funny stories about them.

Now, why would you have religious police, do you think?

India
Turkey - government might be secular, lots of communities aren't

You don't honestly believe that in many communities in these countries you can freely practise whatever religion you want, do you?

johnny

14-11-2006, 01:59 PM

Well i guess that technically you are right, but the fact remains. A child will basically believe anything if they are tought this from a young enough age.

There was a girl that was abused by her drunken father and forced to live with the dogs. Which caused her to adabt the behaviour of the dogs in order to become part of the pack, when rescued the girl could not speak, and often moved around on hands and knees.

I think that is the perfect example of how easily a childs mind can be manipulated. So i feel that religion (although not as severe) is much like the story. In that the child know no better and will believe whatever a parent or loved one tells them, as long as they are told this over a long period of time.Sorry mate, but that's wrong. You are basically relating feralism with education.

As humans we have a few critical periods. One is speach fromn around 1 to 8 years old where our brain is formed in a way that makes it easier to learn speech and language. If you do not learn to talk in this period, you will never learn to talk properly. This is why it is easier for kids to learn languages than it is adults. As for posture, I'd argue the same thing is present. If you are on all fours as your body is forming, you will end up having a body that adapts to the conditions it is made to work in, the same thing goes for women with bound feet in China. You wrap a kids foot tight from a young age, you will stunt its growth.

I don't see this working the same for religion. I was bought up in a religious family, I'm athiest and was from about 13 onwards. I was forced to go to Sunday school and church fellowship groups etc. but I was able to change my mind when I was old enough to rationalise my thoughts.

I'm tipping there are many other people on this site who do not follow what their parents taught them, religiously speaking and generally speaking. I think it probably has a lot to do with education. The more modern your education is the more chance you have the tools to rationalise your thought s and question the information you've been given. If you've been taught how to read and write by reciting the Koran, you probably have far less chance to learn other ways of life and belief systems and will be indoctrinated into a particular culture. But, being in a world of freedom and plurality, we, in the modern and free world, have a lot more to use to make out decisions.

So in essence, I agree with you to a point where those with very little education may be COMPELLED inot a particular religion, but those living an average existance in a basically modern world where they are aware of choice are not really forced into anything simply through primacy of a particular information.

TonyG

14-11-2006, 02:09 PM

Getting back to schools interference. Students should be taught (particularly at public schools) about all religions and the options of agnostic and atheism (and others). They really need an overhaul of these syllabuses. If someone else is going to spend my tax dollars educating the masses, I would like it all theologies taught as just that, a theory not a fact. There is a big difference and this where I get my panties in a knot.

Edit, I actually wrote this a while ago and meant to post it then (hence the getting back bit) please disregard

FR Drew

14-11-2006, 02:12 PM

The churches are not owned by anyone, they are not-profit organisations (most of the time), the land is forfited by the council to supply a religious place, therefor owned by the council (the land that is), although im not sure about the buildings, expensive cars etc...

I think you'll find that the Catholic Church owns all the land that its buildings are on. They come second only to McDonalds in their worth from a real estate point of view.

johnny

14-11-2006, 02:14 PM

By the state sometimes, often by community and family. I did not even imply it was by the state only.Well, I kind of did acknowledge that when I said: What do you mean by "forced upon them"? By the state, communally, by the family?

Examples of supposedly free countries that aren't:

Indonesia - seen a distinct lack of religious freedom there myself - in christian and Muslim communities in Sulawesi for example. That's only one area of a large country. I would argue that the instances you have pointed out are an exception and extreme circumstances in a country where there is definate plurality of religion and large elements of athieism (sp). East Timor was primarily Catholic before independence from Inod. The Christians are constantly fighting with the Muslims in many places, There are many places in Indo that sell alcohol, heavy metal music, etc. This speaks of plurality which lends towards religious freedom.
Malaysia - some states in the east have virtual Islamic law - no real choice if you're ethnic Malaysian. Even in the bigger cities on the west coast there are religious police. Some funny stories about them.I have lived in Kota Baru, the Islamic capital of Malaysia. I have drunk alcohol there, I have disobayed cufew, no one gave a shit. It may be the Islamic capital of the country, but you don't have to be Islamic to live there. Hence, even the most religious areas of Malaysia have religious freedom.

Now, why would you have religious police, do you think?To obey particular laws. I lived there for 7 months all up, I can show you photos of Christian churches, Buddist temples, Mosques etc. That means the country has religious freedom. The religious police are pretty low key, yes we know the stories, but these are again the most extreme examples and they do not stop you from practicing a religion other than Islam. That means there is religious freedom.

India
Turkey - government might be secular, lots of communities aren'tMaybe, but lots of communities are too. The Turkish army, who holds power in reality, are constantly forcing the state to remain secular.

You don't honestly believe that in many communities in these countries you can freely practise whatever religion you want, do you?Yes I do. You don't honestly believe that the majority of people in these countries are forced into a religion not of thier choosing do you?

Seriously, I think the word FORCED needs some defining here.

FR Drew

14-11-2006, 02:16 PM

TonyG

14-11-2006, 02:22 PM

Bring on the Pastafarians! Stop Global Warming, Become a Pirate!
WWFSMD? What would the flying spaghetti monster do?
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?

Good on Bobby Henderson (and Wikipedia)

THE YETI

14-11-2006, 02:22 PM

Sorry mate, but that's wrong. You are basically relating feralism with education.

As humans we have a few critical periods. One is speach fromn around 1 to 8 years old where our brain is formed in a way that makes it easier to learn speech and language. If you do not learn to talk in this period, you will never learn to talk properly. This is why it is easier for kids to learn languages than it is adults. As for posture, I'd argue the same thing is present. If you are on all fours as your body is forming, you will end up having a body that adapts to the conditions it is made to work in, the same thing goes for women with bound feet in China. You wrap a kids foot tight from a young age, you will stunt its growth.
I agree that everything above is true, but i was more saying that MOSTLY a child brought up and educated with religion will (MOST OF THE TIME) hold religion for their life..(Not always). I am not contesting what you have said, just saying that youve taken my thoughts the wrong way.

I don't see this working the same for religion. I was bought up in a religious family, I'm athiest and was from about 13 onwards. I was forced to go to Sunday school and church fellowship groups etc. but I was able to change my mind when I was old enough to rationalise my thoughts.
Touche

I'm tipping there are many other people on this site who do not follow what their parents taught them, religiously speaking and generally speaking. I think it probably has a lot to do with education. The more modern your education is the more chance you have the tools to rationalise your thought s and question the information you've been given. If you've been taught how to read and write by reciting the Koran, you probably have far less chance to learn other ways of life and belief systems and will be indoctrinated into a particular culture. But, being in a world of freedom and plurality, we, in the modern and free world, have a lot more to use to make out decisions.

So in essence, I agree with you to a point where those with very little education may be COMPELLED inot a particular religion, but those living an average existance in a basically modern world where they are aware of choice are not really forced into anything simply through primacy of a particular information.

I still think that johnny PM has re-election in mind and does not care what we as students think. As was said before "parents and students have the right to choose, but if we dont like your decision, you're getting one anyway". I think that students can go to a church or alike for 'spiritual guidence' why place spiritual figures into a state school?

@nDr3w

14-11-2006, 02:28 PM

The way I see it, if christian groups are allowed to run these "recruitment drives" in schools, then so should Islamic groups, Buhddists, Satanists etc etc etc. Its all a bit of a joke really. We have massive amounts of kids who have been snatched in by the whole Hillsong thing, shits me to no end. they just never leave me alone. Sure, I believe everyone should have their beliefs, just don't try and put them on me.

$0.02.
andrew.

scblack

14-11-2006, 02:32 PM

I think you'll find that the Catholic Church owns all the land that its buildings are on. They come second only to McDonalds in their worth from a real estate point of view.

I hope you are being facetious there.:)

The Catholic Church is the worlds biggest landowner.

McDonalds owns very little, if any, and rent premises.

johnny

14-11-2006, 02:32 PM

I still think that johnny PM has re-election in mind and does not care what we as students think. As was said before "parents and students have the right to choose, but if we dont like your decision, you're getting one anyway". I think that students can go to a church or alike for 'spiritual guidence' why place spiritual figures into a state school?Well we certainly agree on that bit, that's for sure! :)

gravelclimber

14-11-2006, 02:33 PM

Well, I kind of did acknowledge that when I said: What do you mean by "forced upon them"? By the state, communally, by the family

Yeah...OK..I didn't say that right...in a shitty mood, sorry.

I have lived in Kota Baru, the Islamic capital of Malaysia. I have drunk alcohol there, I have disobayed cufew, no one gave a shit. It may be the Islamic capital of the country, but you don't have to be Islamic to live there. Hence, even the most religious areas of Malaysia have religious freedom.

You'll note I said ethnic Malaysian. Things are of course different for visiting Australians

It would appear, from what I've seen and heard, that changing one's religion (i.e. switching from Muslim to Catholic) does not go down too well in these kinds of communities. That is the kind of religious freedom to which I'm referring.

It is vastly different from having a bunch of the same religions in the same area who get along well enough to not kill each other most of the time.

johnny

14-11-2006, 02:34 PM

I hope you are being facetious there.:)

The Catholic Church is the worlds biggest landowner.

McDonalds owns very little, if any, and rent premises.I was under the impression that McDonalds owns most of the land that they have built on (as in not the stuff in shopping centres). How sure are you that Macas rests their premises?

johnny

14-11-2006, 02:45 PM

Yeah...OK..I didn't say that right...in a shitty mood, sorry. Haha, sucko! :p How does one spell shaudenfauder?:)

You'll note I said ethnic Malaysian. Things are of course different for visiting AustraliansI think in Malaysia the choice really is yours. We got pissed quite a few nights with the Chinese restaraunt owners there. They were aithiest. I'd ASSUME that the ethnic/racial Malays were there out of choice. I had quite a few Malay and Chinese friends/partners when I was there and they were all free to do as they choose. There were subsidies for Muslims and differing laws etc., but one was free to choose their own religion.

It would appear, from what I've seen and heard, that changing one's religion (i.e. switching from Muslim to Catholic) does not go down too well in these kinds of communities. That is the kind of religious freedom to which I'm referring.Yes, I will agree that there are many communities such as this, more so in the Islamic countries I've travelled/worked in. Usually more so for the women than the men. But this is not to say that it is the majority nor the norm, maybe more so the more outstanding parts of a culture.

It is vastly different from having a bunch of the same religions in the same area who get along well enough to not kill each other most of the time.Yes it is, but I still think you are making an erroneous generalisation to say that the majority of religious types are foced into their belief systems. I have named many religiously free countries that make up way over half the world's population. Sure, inside these nations there may be/are some strict communities, but I would argue, from my small amount of experience and education that they are in the minority.

Even so, China, Russia, UK, USA, Mexico, Brazil, South Africa, Sweden, Ireland, Finland, Denmark, Germany, Czech, Austria, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy, Canada, Japan, Vietnam, Argentina, Chile, Peru. These countries, I would argue, have very little of the "forced" religion of which you speak. That's a huge amount of the global population and I would still argue that no where near MOST of the world is forced into religion as you have asserted.

FR Drew

14-11-2006, 02:46 PM

I was under the impression that McDonalds owns most of the land that they have built on (as in not the stuff in shopping centres). How sure are you that Macas rests their premises?

I'm with Johnny on this one. I'm pretty sure that Maccas own the land they build on and on a real estate basis alone are worth a shitload. Happy to accept SC Black on the fact that the Catholic Church come first though. I'm pretty sure that they are the top two (maybe Walmart or Westfield would give em a run for their money...) either way, it's a lot of land.

But lets not drag Maccas into this, one issue at a time folks.

Dozer

14-11-2006, 02:47 PM

From my vast knowledge database.........:rolleyes: I can recall a story that said the Catholic Church is possibly the richest organisation on the planet. They own and have their fingers in plenty of pies that some of us would never expect.
As an example, I work for Kenworth trucks and I'm fairly certain that somehow down the line, the Catholic Church owns part of it....a big part of it. I'll try and get some info on this because I find it interesting. Be right back...........(please allow 5 - 10 business days for delivery!).

TonyG

14-11-2006, 03:04 PM

Even so, China, Russia, UK, USA, Mexico, Brazil, South Africa, Sweden, Ireland, Finland, Denmark, Germany, Czech, Austria, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy, Canada, Japan, Vietnam, Argentina, Chile, Peru. These countries, I would argue, have very little of the "forced" religion of which you speak. That's a huge amount of the global population and I would still argue that no where near MOST of the world is forced into religion as you have asserted.

I have to disagree here, there are many counties that have pushed religion to the point I think it is forced. What about the old Taliban, they were very forcefully with their religion. I'm sure there are other countries similar to this. Also isn’t there some cult in China where they simply just kill them and sell there organs because they don’t like their religion? (they are forever pestering me with pamphlets down in Martin Place, and they don’t find my "harden the fark up" comments funny either)

johnny

14-11-2006, 03:12 PM

I have to disagree here, there are many counties that have pushed religion to the point I think it is forced. can you name them and give some evidence? What about the old Taliban, they were very forcefully with their religion. I'm sure there are other countries similar to this. Yep, there are quite a few around the Middle East, Northern Africa and the Asian Sub-continent. I'd say that Pakistan has much of this, Iran, etc. But that's only very few compared to the list that I've compiled of nations with religious plurality and secular administrations. Saddam was a dictator, but he tolerated a number of religions other than Islam. Also isn’t there some cult in China where they simply just kill them and sell there organs because they don’t like their religion? (they are forever pestering me with pamphlets down in Martin Place, and they don’t find my "harden the fark up" comments funny either)Yes, but that is not religion, that is Falun Gong/Dafa, not a religion. China allows religion, they just don't allow it to be aggregated and organised to the point that it can influence politics. There are Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc. practicing openly in China. Religion is allowed, but praying individually is "encouraged".

scblack

14-11-2006, 03:23 PM

I'm with Johnny on this one. I'm pretty sure that Maccas own the land they build on and on a real estate basis alone are worth a shitload. Happy to accept SC Black on the fact that the Catholic Church come first though. I'm pretty sure that they are the top two (maybe Walmart or Westfield would give em a run for their money...) either way, it's a lot of land.

But lets not drag Maccas into this, one issue at a time folks.

I just read their 2005 Financial Report, and largely they lease the land on which their stores are, and own the buildings/fittings.

Shopping centres would be only leased premises.

They have about $4.5bn of owned land, out of Total Assets of $30bn. The majority of the remainder is the buildings. So they do own some land, but it is in a context of large landholders, such as the church, not that great a holding.

But it is more than I expected to see.

johnny

14-11-2006, 03:29 PM

I just read their 2005 Financial Report, and largely they lease the land on which their stores are, and own the buildings/fittings.

Shopping centres would be only leased premises.

They have about $4.5bn of owned land, out of Total Assets of $30bn. The majority of the remainder is the buildings. So they do own some land, but it is in a context of large landholders, such as the church, not that great a holding.

But it is more than I expected to see.Ah, there you go, nice one Mr. Black! My business lecturer was wrong! He said that McDonalds was more so in the real estate industry because they bought all the land they occupied....always thought he was a tool though!

At least Macas don't preach religion I guess! :D

McBain

14-11-2006, 03:31 PM

Various people have tried to figure out how much the Catholic Church is worth - but it is a slippery little sucker.

Check out this Google Answers thread for some ref's: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=16625

Drizz

14-11-2006, 03:48 PM

Ah, there you go, nice one Mr. Black! My business lecturer was wrong! He said that McDonalds was more so in the real estate industry because they bought all the land they occupied....always thought he was a tool though!

At least Macas don't preach religion I guess! :D

Is he Russian?
http://www.organicconsumers.org/Politics/russia32205.cfm
I know the site a bit dubious, but at least they quote the original source

Yes, but that is not religion, that is Falun Gong/Dafa, not a religion. China allows religion, they just don't allow it to be aggregated and organised to the point that it can influence politics. There are Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc. practicing openly in China. Religion is allowed, but praying individually is "encouraged".

I agree. Matter of fact I think the they are "indifferent" to it as long as political interest are not at stake, hence why Vatican and Beijing do not have diplomatic ties because Vatican also recognise Taiwan.

Pfff... Religion! Its like applying yesterday's solution to today's problem.:rolleyes:

TonyG

14-11-2006, 03:54 PM

can you name them and give some evidence? .

Nope. I'm just making it up as I go, unfortunately.

FR Drew

14-11-2006, 04:11 PM

Atomizer

14-11-2006, 04:12 PM

can you name them and give some evidence?

I would have thought, as one example, the on-going attempts by some states of the US to ban the teaching of evolution in schools, as well as the almost cancerous influence that Christian Fundamentalist lobby groups have in all aspects of it's society, in particular politics, would surely have to be defined as pushing religion pretty far.

gravelclimber

14-11-2006, 04:13 PM

I think in Malaysia the choice really is yours. We got pissed quite a few nights with the Chinese restaraunt owners there. They were aithiest. I'd ASSUME that the ethnic/racial Malays were there out of choice. I had quite a few Malay and Chinese friends/partners when I was there and they were all free to do as they choose. There were subsidies for Muslims and differing laws etc., but one was free to choose their own religion.

Funnily enough I used to drink a fair bit with a devout Muslim and a devout sikh when I was working over there. Well, devout in every other way except for the no alcohol rule. But if a young women entered the Muslim fella's house, she'd have to be accompanied and he'd have to open up all the windows so the neighbours could see inside. If this didn't happen he'd get reported to the religious police which he was pretty scared of. I thought that was weird and asked why he could drink but not talk to women. He said: "I just do what you can get away with".

This attitude seems to be common in many places I've been. It's still not freedom as I see it though.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

14-11-2006, 04:17 PM

...Hellsong...

I like this name. Mind if I use it in future?

johnny

14-11-2006, 05:01 PM

This attitude seems to be common in many places I've been. It's still not freedom as I see it though.Hang on, I thought we were arguing whether people are forced into a religion, not whether people of a particular religion are forced to act a certain way?

Binaural

14-11-2006, 05:03 PM

Hang on, I thought we were arguing whether people are forced into a religion, not whether people of a particular religion are forced to act a certain way?

Forcing someone to act according to religious precepts (enforced as law in many countries) is as good as forcing them to follow that religion.

johnny

14-11-2006, 05:06 PM

toodles

14-11-2006, 05:16 PM

Holy shit the catholic church is worth a lot of money. I guess their trying to save us from the root of all evil by hoarding it themselves

(and yes I know it's "the love of money is the root of all evil" not money itself...

Still, it's amusing to watch other religious groups tut-tut the catholic church for their financial wealth as though they're the only ones... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megachurch

gravelclimber

14-11-2006, 05:23 PM

No it's farkin not (we're talking Malaysia specifically here where you only have to follow particular rules if you are a Muslim, not the Talibanesque style of oppression).

You have the freedom to believe whatever you want, but if you believe this, you must follow these rules.

Is not the same as:

In this country, you will believe this.

The statement was that the majority of the world has religion forced upon them. not when you follow a particular religion your freedoms will be curtailed.

My point was that being forced into a religion (by threat of disapproval of family if doing otherwise, for example) doesn't necessarily mean you follow every single rule of that religion, but that you follow the ones you have to.

Again, in this case I'm not talking about the state, more community and family imposed "forcing". You don't get put in jail for doing otherwise, it's more subtle than that.

NeBoS

14-11-2006, 07:55 PM

What sort of stereotypical crap is that? Children born of satan, does this mean that they cut up little boys in their spare time (its possible) but really. How can you say that about another religion in my eyes that is just hypocrytical SHIT. How is this any different to a christian religious group?

This is what shits me about religion ^^

Er, I think your are taking this just a little too seriously (didnt you notice the emoticon at the end of the sentance? I was kidding).

Still, it's amusing to watch other religious groups tut-tut the catholic church for their financial wealth as though they're the only ones... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megachurch

This wiki article is exactly what im taking about.

I like the term "Disney Church" - gives you a more visual impression of these organisations.

NCR600

14-11-2006, 08:44 PM

scblack

15-11-2006, 07:42 AM

Jeez, I had no idea this would get so het up!

Does anyone know if Hillsong have a list of Hillsong owned or affilliated businesses that they spend their filthy lucre at? Someone once told me that Gloria Jean's Coffee had some connection with them, so I vowed never to buy coffee there (well, not that I would anyway, it's rubbish).

If there was a list, I could ensure that I directed my funds as far away from Hillsong as possible.

They do. A mate of mine works for a company owned by a guy heavily into the Hellsong BS. They have a newsletter or advertising brochure that goes around all members. Companies in the church advertise in this, and if my mates company needs anything, FIRST point of call is this list of Hellsong business, so the business stays in-house so to speak.

It is apparently VERY expensive to list your advertisement too.

Well, they can't help others, if they don't help themselves first - right?:rolleyes:

Elbo

15-11-2006, 08:33 AM

They do. A mate of mine works for a company owned by a guy heavily into the Hellsong BS. They have a newsletter or advertising brochure that goes around all members. Companies in the church advertise in this, and if my mates company needs anything, FIRST point of call is this list of Hellsong business, so the business stays in-house so to speak.

It is apparently VERY expensive to list your advertisement too.

Well, they can't help others, if they don't help themselves first - right?:rolleyes:
So they have a nice little trading bloc going on then. I think this shows that a lot of churches have become commercial/consumer products. Not spiritual houses of God. In countries like Africa, their churches are either open air, sheds or structures which only have a roof and no walls, and in a few instances, there are small churches that have been built by rich churches in the developed world (which is good).

McBain

15-11-2006, 08:42 AM

It is apparently VERY expensive to list your advertisement too.But very lucrative too, from what I've heard (which matches what you said).

Isn't there some part of corporation law that stops that kind of behaviour for larger companies (collusion)? (I'm likely to be completely wrong here though.)

Binaural

15-11-2006, 08:57 AM

But very lucrative too, from what I've heard (which matches what you said).

Isn't there some part of corporation law that stops that kind of behaviour for larger companies (collusion)? (I'm likely to be completely wrong here though.)

Yeah, there are laws about anticompetitive behaviour in Australia (they aren't very uniform between industries though). But I'm pretty sure they only apply for monopolies and oligopolies, not small-time companies like most of these are likely to be.

scblack

15-11-2006, 09:01 AM

Isn't there some part of corporation law that stops that kind of behaviour for larger companies (collusion)? (I'm likely to be completely wrong here though.)

I'd imagine nothing at all illegal here - just advertising their businesses, and if they choose not to use others, such is their choice.

If three or four of them quoted "against" each other for a council or govt contract, then you may have a case.

But as it stands here, just buying from their own.;)

NeBoS

16-11-2006, 10:30 AM

Yeah, there are laws about anticompetitive behaviour in Australia (they aren't very uniform between industries though). But I'm pretty sure they only apply for monopolies and oligopolies, not small-time companies like most of these are likely to be.

This raises an interesting point. Under what business structure would a church trade under? Churches like Hillsong etc surly are required to have ABN's etc..

TonyG

16-11-2006, 10:44 AM

This raises an interesting point. Under what business structure would a church trade under? Churches like Hillsong etc surly are required to have ABN's etc..

It is a very good point, I'll get SCBLACK to confirm this, but I think they are still classified as not for profit organisation. This was the big furore before the last election as Costello (a regular happy clapper himself) gave them the status in order to get the Family First Preferential Vote (is that the term?). I could be wrong, but it is my understanding there was very controversial decision regarding this.

NeBoS

16-11-2006, 10:57 AM

TonyG

16-11-2006, 11:05 AM

'Happy Clapper' - thats pretty funny!

Yeh, they have to be non profit orgs, but who is the governing body? What percentage of the profits is required for charities? What is the salary limit for the church heads?

http://www.treasurer.gov.au/tsr/content/transcripts/2005/096.asp
there is a link from the Peter's own website.

NeBoS

16-11-2006, 11:15 AM

http://www.treasurer.gov.au/tsr/content/transcripts/2005/096.asp
there is a link from the Peter's own website.

Interesting:
- The church is owned/operated by a single person - Brian Houston
- Costello is a christian but believes (somewhat) in evolution
- Family First appears to be a big issue of which Costello is a big player.

Im sensing some conflict of interests.

Dozer

16-11-2006, 11:16 AM

http://www.treasurer.gov.au/tsr/content/transcripts/2005/096.asp
there is a link from the Peter's own website.

I wonder if he helps them work on their budget? If they trusted some of his judgements then they obviously don't really care for normal people............

TonyG

16-11-2006, 11:25 AM

Interesting:
- The church is owned/operated by a single person - Brian Houston
- Costello is a christian but believes (somewhat) in evolution
- Family First appears to be a big issue of which Costello is a big player.

Im sensing some conflict of interests.

I actually like Costello, except his religous impartiality.
If he could leave all his personal beliefs at the door every day and just come in and run an economy, I dont think you could find a better man for the job. unfortunatly he cant.

NeBoS

16-11-2006, 11:34 AM

I actually like Costello, except his religous impartiality.
If he could leave all his personal beliefs at the door every day and just come in and run an economy, I dont think you could find a better man for the job. unfortunatly he cant.

I agree. He has to be one of the most open-minded pollies out there.

johnny

16-11-2006, 11:34 AM

His brother seems alright though.

scblack

16-11-2006, 11:35 AM

It is a very good point, I'll get SCBLACK to confirm this, but I think they are still classified as not for profit organisation. This was the big furore before the last election as Costello (a regular happy clapper himself) gave them the status in order to get the Family First Preferential Vote (is that the term?). I could be wrong, but it is my understanding there was very controversial decision regarding this.

I am sure they would be a not-for-profit organisation, TonyG. Could not imagine them being any other set-up.

Nebos, they would have an ABN I reckon - their turnover would be over the $100k cutoff for non-profit organisations to register.

I reckon they would be trading via a Company Limited by Guarantee, which is a company structure, but holds no real owners/shareholders funds, so owners/operators are protected. It is a common structure for small and not-for-profit organisations. Not a tax-dodge as such.

NeBoS

16-11-2006, 11:40 AM

I am sure they would be a not-for-profit organisation, TonyG. Could not imagine them being any other set-up.

Nebos, they would have an ABN I reckon - their turnover would be over the $100k cutoff for non-profit organisations to register.

I reckon they would be trading via a Company Limited by Guarantee, which is a company structure, but holds no real owners/shareholders funds, so owners/operators are protected. It is a common structure for small and not-for-profit organisations. Not a tax-dodge as such.

Yeh they wouldnt be doing a tax dodge or anything like that. I guess we can call their compant structure one of 'flexibility'. Actually, i have a friend in the AV industry who helped install a very high-tech sound and lighting system at Hillsong. He said you would believe their assets!