Buying overseas/online vs lbs

[rocky_mtn50]

Hey all,

Just thought it would be interesting in the light of recent times to try to put some sort of numbers to the amount of people who buy bike stuff online or overseas vs who still exclusively use their local bike shop.

It may give some sort of idea as to how many of us mtbers, who being members of a mtb forum and obviously more than just a little into mtb's, actually still use their lbs FOR PURCHASES, and to what extent. Maybe it would give us a slightly biased sense of where the aussie bike industry is, let's see how it goes though.

There are a few ways I could have done this, but I'll make the options overseas/online, because torpedo 7 is not overseas anymore, yet still offers the same sort of savings and contributes in the same way to the aussie bike industry as buying overseas would. That said, buying off phantom is generally not going to save you much over the lbs rrp, but I can't make it perfect :)

Also, this is excluding buying off Farkin. I realise prices on farkin usually reflect what you'd pay for the item new overseas, but it's easier to just leave that out.

So yeah, we're talking about where you buy bike accessories APART from the ones you buy off farkin.

I'm not sure how this will work, feel free to point out any problems or ways to make it work better.

For the record, I am buying the huge majority of my bike parts overseas, and only extremely rarely visiting the lbs to buy stuff. Even things like cable outer and chain joiner links are so easy to get overseas now, they can just get put in with your other stuff in the box.

I searched and couldn't find anything similar, but delete this if there is obviously.

Rhys

[cdfeto]

I'm pretty sure this topic has been aborted several times before, especially with all the "support your local biking community/industry". Plus your poll is way too complicated/detailed - I don't even see the point of this.

[Ben_9]

I tend to buy from bike shops in a different suburb or online as the guys at my lbs are a bunch of dickheads.

[rocky_mtn50]

I'm pretty sure this topic has been aborted several times before, especially with all the "support your local biking community/industry". Plus your poll is way too complicated/detailed - I don't even see the point of this.

Sorry if you don't like it, just attempting to guage some numbers. It has to be detailed to filter out the exceptions and circumstances that don't fit.

[Daver]

There are a few ways I could have done this, but I'll make the options overseas/online, because torpedo 7 is not overseas anymore, yet still offers the same sort of savings and contributes in the same way to the aussie bike industry as buying overseas would.

T7 is from new zealand not australia. Regardless of that, they do not contribute to the australian industry at all- the majority of their parts they sell are oem "grey imports" and provide you with little to no after sales support. Just so you know.

By the way, surely school holidays are over?

[hayd]

You may think I'm crazy but I prefer to go for an hour long drive to a very reliable bike shop than order online or go to my lbs. The service, advice and price is unbeatable compared to anything else I've seen.

(I would consider purchasing from this store online if I had no other option)

[hayd]

By the way, surely school holidays are over?

Its ANZAC Day. Forums will return to normal tomorrow.

[rocky_mtn50]

T7 is from new zealand not australia. Regardless of that, they do not contribute to the australian industry at all- the majority of their parts they sell are oem "grey imports" and provide you with little to no after sales support. Just so you know.

By the way, surely school holidays are over?

I don't go to school for your information, university. Seriously, what is wrong with what I posted for god's sake? What makes it sound like something a high school drop kick would post? Bloody hell you guys are tough.

[dcrofty]

By the way, surely school holidays are over?

Its a public holiday and its raining. I'm expecting a flood of roundup threads any second now.

[cdfeto]

rocky_mtn50, do you really reckon this threads is telling us anything we don't know or is in any way beneficial to our general bike knowledge. Surely you have better things to post about, being in Uni and all ... :rolleyes:

[rocky_mtn50]

Whatever, delete it, I'm sick of defending myself. For the record, its telling me some very interesting facts. At this moment, the 2nd most popular amount ie 5 people only occaisonally but overseas, but usually use the lbs. This is pretty suprising for me, also the 2 people out of the small number of votes put in, who havnt' ever ordered overseas and don't intend to. Wonder what the reasons are for this, given the savings and pretty safe environment there is out there these days.

[Regan of Gong]

I don't ride hard enough to break things or need better ones, but I go about 1/2 1/2.

[lebronmtb]

i tend to be 50/50 as i work at a bike shop and get stuff cheap, otherwise i'd be almost always ebay

[leitch]

the only time i go to a bikeshop is when i need something small - shifter cables, crank bolts, headset spacers etc. any major parts i will either buy from here or from an online shop. i do all my own maintenance work at home too, so the guys at the LBS rarely see me unless i stop in for a chat.

[top_dog]

I thought it was a good question.:confused:

[Grip]

There's nothing wrong with this question at all. The overall subject of LBS Vs Online has been done to death but this is quite specific AND intelligent so either answer the question or back of boys:)

For the record I rarely use either LBS or Online.... I make it:p

Actually I do use the LBS....;)

[DH_co]

Hard one for me.

I use to buy all lbs, then I went all OS.

But at the moment, I am buying all AUS as the LBS i go to, the cool mechanic is leaving soon, so he can get me and mates anything we want at cost price, and does all labour for free etc, and even gives us some free shit (mate got about $300 of bike parts free).

But otherwise, its is all OS, about %50 cheaper. But sometimes for small things I buy in AUS as it is cheaper for postage reasons.

[k3n!f]

It varies for me. I'm not exactly going to orders shifter cables from chainreactioncycles.com, or Maxxis tires when they are so cheap in Australia.

But eBay can be pretty irresistible sometimes...

Plus I have a great local bike shop who really try their best to keep the prices down as well as providing friendly service and advice.

[spyder6052]

lbs for small stuff T7 for tyres,tubes etc as there prices are good(dont go by what their normal prices are) and their freight prices make anything in australia look rediculess and here for great secondhand bargains

[ozelise]

Many LBS are also online: Phantom, Woolys, KOM, Cecil Walker etc.

[Kingswood]

Whatever, delete it, I'm sick of defending myself.

Nah man, I reckon this is a top poll. Yes the OS/LBS debate has been done more times than is healthy, but we haven't had a poll like this and already the numbers make good reading. I hope this keeps going.

Surely it's got to help some industry folks as well? or does everyone in the industry know how much money they are loosing to OS shops?


i tend to be 50/50 as i work at a bike shop and get stuff cheap, otherwise i'd be almost always ebay

Damn! even if you work in a bike shop you can get cheaper stuff from OS.

What is the solution???????????????

[top_dog]

Damn! even if you work in a bike shop you can get cheaper stuff from OS.

What is the solution???????????????

I know for a fact that you can get Saint cranks from America for less than what the dealers pay here. They haven't got much hope have they...

[rocky_mtn50]

Thanks for the support guys, yes the numbers do look interesting, I'm glad I did it now.:)

I know exactly what you are saying Tom. I got my dhx shipped here for $430, and I was told by my lbs owner that was significantly less than what he is charged by Dirtworks. It made me feel a bit guilty, but he's aware of the situation and can definatley understand why I went overseas.

[Plow King]

I have purchased overseas/online before, but I usually use my lbs

I bought my brakes online and a jersey and shorts which i couldnt find anywhere in aus.

[Viv92]

I try to support my LBS because they are great guys and the know their stuff really well. I will probably buy overseas more now though.

[Cletus]

there has to be some sort of sollution. the pricing between the lbs and OS is ridiculous, i went to the lbs the other day after an lx rear deraileure for my gf's bike and they were going to charge me $110. same thing online in hong kong.....$35. no prizes for guessing who i bought from

[kore23]

I only ever order from OS if what i want isn't available at the supplier.

As for stuff that is available; even if the OS price beats the cost price at work, i'd rather support the suppliers...the more they are shafted, the less stock they carry which is a pain in the arse for shops.

[Christo]

Someone in the aussie bike industry is making alot of money and it sure isn't the bike shops...

I blame Rob Eva!;)

[Cletus]

thats right christo, parts are just making there way through too many sets of hands before they end up in our stores. why cant the lbs buy direct from the manufacturer? cut out all the middle men/women.

[SDA]

Good poll / thread..

It provides me with confidence that ordering online is safe and is widely used. Don't get me wrong.. the guys at Spoken are fantastic!

And.. it cements the fact that the middle men make all the money.. because I am sure people who work in bike shops don't make much!

[DJ1wheel]

For all the 'do a search' Nazi's - if you dont like topics, dont click on them - as a more recent member, im sick to death of people jumping on other people for starting a topic, if bandwidth is so important, how about you ask for yourselves and your posts to be deleted.

EVERY SINGLE CONCIEVABLE TOPIC will be repeated about mountain biking / DH / DJ / XC / Freeride at one stage or another, therefore, there will always be one of you Nazi's jumpin on someone who, whilst having the same rights as you idiots, has to defend themselves because they posted a topic that was going around back when dinosaurs were roaming the earth.

Now, back on topic.

I buy from my LBS because I appreciate their advice, and they dont scream at me 'DO A SEARCH YA MORON' every time I ask a question.

[GRIM]

I agree I am sick of the 'Do a Search' members out there, if you don't like it don't read it.

I think it is a healthy subject to discuss because it is good for the local shops to understand why people are buying Online from Overseas. I personally try to buy locally but I will not pay double or triple the price.

[|Matt|]

I agree I am sick of the 'Do a Search' members out there, if you don't like it don't read it.

I think it is a healthy subject to discuss because it is good for the local shops to understand why people are buying Online from Overseas. I personally try to buy locally but I will not pay double or triple the price.

Agreed, I will buy smaller things at my LBS like tires and things that don't have a whole lot of mark up, but for larger items like forks, wheels and the like, I am much more likely to buy from overseas like CRC or DNZ because local prices are absolutely ludicrous compared to theirs.

I know this sounds selfish, but most people would be in the same boat...I support my wallet before the LBS, and if the LBS can't adjust their pricing to help both themselves and the consumer, I don't think its unreasonable to shop elsewhere.
I understand that the wholesale prices might be higher here, but I saw the markup on a few bikes like the STP2 and they wholesale for something like $500 and they get marked up to just under $1,000. Thats a tad much IMO.

[Matt H]

I understand that the wholesale prices might be higher here, but I saw the markup on a few bikes like the STP2 and they wholesale for something like $500 and they get marked up to just under $1,000. Thats a tad much IMO.

Yes, that's about right for the bicycle industry - but if you start saying that it's to much, you have to compare it to every other form of retail. Bike shop owners have to cover their costs and you'll find that although some might be well off, they're far from being filthy rich or anything... And also, the RRP is often set by the manufacturer or supplier.

[Dozer]

This is a good topic and I think it is being discussed more often because it is something that people in the industry and the people who ride bikes need to know about.
I buy a lot of stuff online. I also buy a lot of stuff from my local bike shop. I get the bigger more techinical jobs done at my shop by my mechanic but I do a lot of my stuff at home.
The things I have purchased online are done for simple reasons:
-They are cheaper.
-They get here quicker than ordering through the shop (I hate the fact that I can order from overseas and still get the parts 5 times quicker than the shop can!).
-I can do your research on the net to see what will suit me and I can order the exact part by looking at the pretty pictures instead of describing it over the phone.
-Ummmmm.....they are cheaper!
Let's face it, money talks and BS walks. If my local shop can't get me the exact same product within a week of ordering for less money than I'll be ordering online. It is really that simple for me! A lot of people say that ordering online or from overseas is hurting the Aussie industry.......I can't say that I've seen people at races or people in photo's with old beat up bikes because they can't buy quality parts from their local shop because the shop has gone so far under that they can't afford to stock the goods.
To me, there is way too many people involved in making a purchase of some goods that aren't in stock in your shop. When I get told that a new shifter (for example) will take two weeks to get from Melbourne because it has to be shipped and cleared and a price tag fitted blah blah blah.......I can get it cheaper and quicker by doing it online by myself!
The subject will always be discussed and it is good insight for the industry folk to read this stuff because it may help them better their services.

[|Matt|]

Yes, that's about right for the bicycle industry - but if you start saying that it's to much, you have to compare it to every other form of retail. Bike shop owners have to cover their costs and you'll find that although some might be well off, they're far from being filthy rich or anything... And also, the RRP is often set by the manufacturer or supplier.

No I understand that, I might have said more than I meant to but what I was just trying to say was that unless the LBS can look after my wallet, why should my wallet look after them?

[tyron]

Agreed, I will buy smaller things at my LBS like tires and things that don't have a whole lot of mark up, but for larger items like forks, wheels and the like, I am much more likely to buy from overseas like CRC or DNZ because local prices are absolutely ludicrous compared to theirs.

I know this sounds selfish, but most people would be in the same boat...I support my wallet before the LBS, and if the LBS can't adjust their pricing to help both themselves and the consumer, I don't think its unreasonable to shop elsewhere.
I understand that the wholesale prices might be higher here, but I saw the markup on a few bikes like the STP2 and they wholesale for something like $500 and they get marked up to just under $1,000. Thats a tad much IMO.

First of all I am definately getting over this topic, lets say for arguements sake that the stp did w/s for $500 and r.r.p is $1000, this means that the shop has approx 80% markup on this model give or take a little for freight etc, take in to account they have to build, stock it and they normally give away a couple of free service's as well. By the time they pay their mechanic, electricity and all other expenses like these how much do you think he actually makes ??? I can tell you it isn't much, shops survive on volume and servicing. On top of all of this you also get a WARRANTY! warranty you say "who needs that" people who buy products that normally need a warranty at some point or another i.e (like a fork, brake etc) need warranty and those same people who purchase on-line are same people who cry warranty warranty as soon as something goes wrong. Further more if everybody adopted the on-line atitude there would be no bike shops to go to, then where do you go for help/advice, you can't stick your bike in the computer to be fixed.... I'm done (food for thought!)

Don't get me wrong, I think if there is something that you want that you can't get in Australia then by all means purchase it on-line and wear the responsibility if the products fails or send it back usually at your expense..

[BJ-]

thats right christo, parts are just making there way through too many sets of hands before they end up in our stores. why cant the lbs buy direct from the manufacturer? cut out all the middle men/women.

Because its not worth the companies time that make the products. They dont have the resources to distribute their products around the globe on top of everything else they have to do.

Do you know how much work it would be to contact every bike shop in the world and get confirmed numbers on how many products will be required each year? Then produce those numbers and supply them?

Thats a rediculous ammount of work on top of researching, developing, testing, marketing, producing new prodcuts, organising and running racing teams and everything else bike companies are doing now a days.

Someones got to be making money off the sales of bikes, just dont assume the distributers/importers are the ones making it.

Support the local industry by trying to buy the majority of youre bike related product from your LBS. Thats all we ask of you...

[toodles]

Only time I buy local anymore is when I'm too impatient to wait for stuff from OS.

I'm sick of the crap from the local shops, bad service, shitty pricing, etc. If I can buy Australian made products cheaper from an overseas shop then something is very wrong. There is simply no more justification for the LBS argument.

I have more trouble getting warranties honoured through shops than I do through internet correspondance with OS shops. They're cheaper, friendlier, more helpful, more knowledgable and the back up suits me. The same goes for small local importers that sell direct like Bill @ dhdirect and Tony @ Endo. Both great guys and keen to help riders.

Shops will always have their place, but for anyone who can tell a spoke key from a BB tool then there's the choice to spend less or get more for your dollar.

[Kingswood]

On top of all of this you also get a WARRANTY! warranty you say "who needs that" people who buy products that normally need a warranty at some point or another i.e (like a fork, brake etc) need warranty and those same people who purchase on-line are same people who cry warranty warranty as soon as something goes wrong.


Do people really do that? or is everyone pretty educated to the fact that warranty is made a bit more complicated if you buy OS?

Would they be more likely to say "I know I paid <= half oz retail so I can get a brand new part to my door, and still keep the old one for spares, and all within a week."


you can't stick your bike in the computer to be fixed....

Thats bloody funny.

[Dozer]

A little off topic here but I reckon it is worthy of a mention and your opinion is valued.
Do riders have more of a business relation with their local bike shop or a friendly relationship? The reason I ask is this......
I'll use a video shop as an example of my point. Let's say you only shop at Video Ezy (a retail shop that sells DVD's and hires DVD's for those that don't know). You shop at Video Ezy because you like their layout, their prices are okay but sometimes over priced, the service is good, they are open early enough and close late and they stock a decent range. Let's say you can get a better purchase by buying a new DVD copy of a movie that is a new release via online shopping and you can get it before the video shop does and it is a few dollars cheaper. Would your loyalty to the store stop you from buying the disc online? Would you wait for the shop to get it in a few days after you could've had it already? Would you not buy the online disc knowing that there will be no money going into the shop that you are loyal to?
I was looking at some DVD's online earlier today and I checked my local store and the online store. I thought of this thread and I thought I'd ask what people's views are on a business or a friendship type deal as I outlined earlier.
You have to admit that putting a situation like this into perspective, it does make you think about a few things.



I did anyway!;)

[Pete_10]

Only time I buy local anymore is when I'm too impatient to wait for stuff from OS.

I'm sick of the crap from the local shops, bad service, shitty pricing, etc. If I can buy Australian made products cheaper from an overseas shop then something is very wrong. There is simply no more justification for the LBS argument.

I have more trouble getting warranties honoured through shops than I do through internet correspondance with OS shops. They're cheaper, friendlier, more helpful, more knowledgable and the back up suits me. The same goes for small local importers that sell direct like Bill @ dhdirect and Tony @ Endo. Both great guys and keen to help riders.

Shops will always have their place, but for anyone who can tell a spoke key from a BB tool then there's the choice to spend less or get more for your dollar.

i agree with everything you say there.

there is only two bike shops in toowoomba and both i do not fully trust with my bike or thier service to their customers. they seem to have no give in there prices as other shops have(only an hour away in brisbane are far superior), and sometimes treat you like you and what you want is worthless, like waiting several weeks for parts or a simple job to be done which takes considerable amount of time less, or even as simple as ringing you when your part is in store.

these things make my decision to buy online and do nearly all work on my bike. the only time i go to the lbs is to get small parts.

In saying these things you dont always have to go OS to get a good price, DHdirect, phantom cycles, FTR ect all have great prices and are very helpfull.

It all comes down the your LBS and thier profesionalism and there service, if my LBS had good service and good prices i would shop there in a flash.

ive had my sook now

[top_dog]

I've had better warrenty service OS than what I've had at the LBS thats for sure. Even though its on the other side of the world.

And whats more they OS shops are out to please. DNZ sent me the wrong size E13. It wasn't his fault at all. BTI put the wrong sticker on the box. But he was prepared to wear it and just sent me out a new E13. So I sold the other one and basically got a free e13. They just go so much further over there.

[Oddjob]

I tend to buy big things where its concievable that I will need a warranty claim locally. Stuff like forks and frames. I also buy most of my workshop stuff like lube, grease, tools, degreaser locally as well. Also stuff where a bit of advice is helpful like tyres and helmets. Most other parts where its unlikely that I would bother with a warranty claim I buy from overseas. This includes things like shifters, cranks, derraileurs, chains, bars, wheels etc etc.

In terms of my LBS, I don't think either of them (CBD and BA) have much to complain about. I must have put thousands of dollars through both of them in work and parts.

[leitch]

Further more if everybody adopted the on-line atitude there would be no bike shops to go to
now you might be sick of the whole idea around this thread, but i think everybody is sick of this silly response from bike industry representatives. even if the entire top-of-the-range market went to overseas vendors, it would not in any way result in bikeshops going out of business. its pretty well known that bike stores make their largest margins on lower end bikes and services - two things that you wouldnt buy from an overseas on line store. so while people may start buying their more expensive components off online vendors, bike shops may only make a 10% profit on these items, so the loss of business will have little to no effect.
then where do you go for help/advice.
for a start, bike shops are not going to disappear for the reasons outlined above. secondly, even if they did, forums like this are great for that exact purpose. so get over the whole "bikeshops will go out of business" wank, because its simply not true.

[rocky_mtn50]

I tend to buy big things where its concievable that I will need a warranty claim locally. Stuff like forks and frames. I also buy most of my workshop stuff like lube, grease, tools, degreaser locally as well. Also stuff where a bit of advice is helpful like tyres and helmets. Most other parts where its unlikely that I would bother with a warranty claim I buy from overseas. This includes things like shifters, cranks, derraileurs, chains, bars, wheels etc etc.

In terms of my LBS, I don't think either of them (CBD and BA) have much to complain about. I must have put thousands of dollars through both of them in work and parts.

That's EXACTLY the view I used to have on the warranty issue. I purchased some forks here in Australia, though they were actually cheaper here than overseas, the point is I still bought them here.

I have an obvious warranty issue with them, hands down obviously a warranty issue. I get told a bunch of lies, and am dealt with with some degree of rudeness. I'm not going to mention any names here, but the company would not suprise alot of you. I'm sure that would not surprise alot of you. For me, this was one of the only real advantages I thought I would get by purchasing here in Australia, now I basically have none apart from trying to support the bike shops a bit.

Dozer, my relationship is a mixture of both. From a business sense, I generally won't get something from there unless I absolutely have to, but if there is a small difference in price between lbs and overseas, even with another lbs close by, I'll get it from my favourite one.

I don't know if you guys get this way, but I'm kind of like that with some of the overseas stores. With some of the smaller companies who are really friendly and cheap (eg dropnzone), you tend to get an attachment. I feel guilty if I don't buy stuff off him after asking for a price because he is such a nice guy, I want to buy things off him even if it is a little more expensive than say crc (does that sound crazy). So in that case friendly usually.

[tyron]

That's EXACTLY the view I used to have on the warranty issue. I purchased some forks here in Australia, though they were actually cheaper here than overseas, the point is I still bought them here.

I have an obvious warranty issue with them, hands down obviously a warranty issue. I get told a bunch of lies, and am dealt with with some degree of rudeness. I'm not going to mention any names here, but the the first word of the company begins with G and the second word begins with S. I'm sure that would not surprise alot of you. For me, this was one of the only real advantages I thought I would get by purchasing here in Australia, now I basically have none apart from trying to support the bike shops a bit.

Dozer, my relationship is a mixture of both. From a business sense, I generally won't get something from there unless I absolutely have to, but if there is a small difference in price between lbs and overseas, even with another lbs close by, I'll get it from my favourite one.

I don't know if you guys get this way, but I'm kind of like that with some of the overseas stores. With some of the smaller companies who are really friendly and cheap (eg dropnzone), you tend to get an attachment. I feel guilty if I don't buy stuff off him after asking for a price because he is such a nice guy, I want to buy things off him even if it is a little more expensive than say crc (does that sound crazy). So in that case friendly usually.

Not mentioning any names generally means not mentioning any names, further more your version of a warranty could be very different from what is a real warranty. Just becuase a product has a problem doesn't mean you automatically get a warranty. ie miss use, abuse, not using the product for what it was designed for etc... I have seen plenty of warranties go through that should never have been warrantied (but you never here about those) it is easier to sledge...

Whatever!

[rocky_mtn50]

Not mentioning any names generally means not mentioning any names, further more your version of a warranty could be very different from what is a real warranty. Just becuase a product has a problem doesn't mean you automatically get a warranty. ie miss use, abuse, not using the product for what it was designed for etc... I have seen plenty of warranties go through that should never have been warrantied (but you never here about those) it is easier to sledge...

Whatever!

Sure I'll edit it to satisfy you. Jeez, people get defensive over this subject! I wouldn't post something like that unless it was true. Trust me it was absolute bs. The bike store who handled it said so, knowledgeable friends said so, plus I know someone who had exactly the same issue, except they bought the forks in Canada! Except here the forks/lowers (not sure which one) were replaced under warranty, no questions asked.

Whatever!

[top_dog]

^^^

Group Sportiffe, hands down worst customer service in Aus.

Thats just a guess at who Rhys had trouble with based on his spec at the bottom of his post and my personal experience.

[|Matt|]

now you might be sick of the whole idea around this thread, but i think everybody is sick of this silly response from bike industry representatives. even if the entire top-of-the-range market went to overseas vendors, it would not in any way result in bikeshops going out of business. its pretty well known that bike stores make their largest margins on lower end bikes and services - two things that you wouldnt buy from an overseas on line store. so while people may start buying their more expensive components off online vendors, bike shops may only make a 10% profit on these items, so the loss of business will have little to no effect.

for a start, bike shops are not going to disappear for the reasons outlined above. secondly, even if they did, forums like this are great for that exact purpose. so get over the whole "bikeshops will go out of business" wank, because its simply not true.

Andrew Leitch for President.

[Matt H]

^^^

Group Sportiffe, hands down worst customer service in Aus.

Thats just a guess at who Rhys had trouble with based on his spec at the bottom of his post and my personal experience.

Tell me about it... when ordering parts off them I like to use this formula:

Estimated Time = Quoted Time x 5

[top_dog]

Tell me about it... when ordering parts off them I like to use this formula:

Estimated Time = Quoted Time x 5


And then when it shows up its the wrong part anyway.

[Christo]

And then when it shows up its the wrong part anyway.

And I thought they only did that to us?

Happened to us the other day...

[betelnut]

I've basically given up on using any LBS in melbourne because every one of them has proved themselves useless due to a number of reasons:
1. failure to get anything done on time (eg - a wheelset that will "be ready in 48 hours" taking 3 weeks when all the parts were IN the shop),
2. a complete absence of knowledge (ie - being served by a 14 YO, or their mental equivalent),
3. treating any customer that isn't a familiar face (ie - regular spender of $$) with contempt or just simply ignoring them,
4. trying to hard sell me a product simply because that was what they had in stock, when I had requested something else explicitly (I have occasionally buckled to this bullshit and have been diappointed 90% of the time).

I have been riding mountain bikes for 18 years so I've tried quite a few shops. When I do buy something in Australia it is nearly always from Kerry at Phantom Cycles because he is a) cheap, b) knowledgable, c) responds to ALL requests promptly and d) doesn't talk shit.

Everything else I buy, I get from OS.

I do nearly all my own wrenching with the exception of wheel building. I don't blame the LBS itself for Australia's inflated prices - I blame (some, certainly not all) the importers/distributors who jack up the prices to the point where I can't afford to buy locally. I'm a realist - my chances of a warranty claim are low (maybe 3 claims in 18 years), so I'll take a punt on cheap and OS than expensive and local. It's not because I don't want to support the industry, it's because I feel backed into a corner.

And there ends my rant.

[Oddjob]

I have been riding mountain bikes for 18 years so I've tried quite a few shops. When I do buy something in Australia it is nearly always from Kerry at Phantom Cycles because he is a) cheap, b) knowledgable, c) responds to ALL requests promptly and d) doesn't talk shit.



Another vote for Kerry and the boys at Phantom. I think I must have put thousands of dollars through them as well.

[Huph]

Love my LBS - they are the ones putting back into locally MTB'ing

Always the first place I look for bikes, parts and service.

[fatboy247]

the only time i go to a bikeshop is when i need something small - shifter cables, crank bolts, headset spacers etc. any major parts i will either buy from here or from an online shop. i do all my own maintenance work at home too, so the guys at the LBS rarely see me unless i stop in for a chat..


so i have to ask, if you don't buy anthing from that particular LBS then why would the guys take the time to chat to you??

Obviously they have very little chance of selling anything to you so they must be top blokes, which makes me wonder why you don't buy stuff from them? (visches circle i know but hey, thats how life works when your cheap!)

[karlfaith]

so i have to ask, if you don't buy anthing from that particular LBS then why would the guys take the time to chat to you??

Obviously they have very little chance of selling anything to you so they must be top blokes, which makes me wonder why you don't buy stuff from them? (visches circle i know but hey, thats how life works when your cheap!)

I'm interestd as to what you selected in the poll. It's not being 'cheap', its 'saving money'.

[Octane_Matty]

I generally get most of my gear online (cheaper), but with some items the price difference is so little its a tough decision...usually ends up with buying online because of the trip to the lbs followed by the bargaining and waiting for the item to come in stock in some cases.

Buy overseas...repair at lbs


edit: just read betelnut's post and i must agree kerry at phantom is always a pleaser, if he doesnt have it in stock he will get it in quick and you will be so happy with the service you will end up paying him more than he wants for it!

[Vinelink]

If the LBS hired people with some brains on how to service customers, how to talk about bikes professionally and how to sell, then things maybe alot better. Like most businesses, they suffer from shitty staff.

[Binaural]

If the LBS hired people with some brains on how to service customers, how to talk about bikes professionally and how to sell, then things maybe alot better. Like most businesses, they suffer from shitty staff.

No, I don't think that is necessarily fair. Most of the bike shops I've been to have had reasonably competent staff, not necessarily outstanding but not terrible when compared to their counterparts in any other service industry I've seen. What is killing them as parts dealers is that they offer no delivery time or price advantages over international or domestic mail order. A LBS might sell a couple of a particular part per year and has incentive to have as little stock as possible since their quantities are so small as to be not worth the risk of having stock that can't be moved.

[leitch]

so i have to ask, if you don't buy anthing from that particular LBS then why would the guys take the time to chat to you??

Obviously they have very little chance of selling anything to you so they must be top blokes, which makes me wonder why you don't buy stuff from them? (visches circle i know but hey, thats how life works when your cheap!)

you know, its a funny idea, but it is actually possible in this world to make friends without buying them.

i have 2 LBS' near me. 1 of them, im good friends with a couple of the guys who work there. as such, ill often drop in when im riding past or whatever and have a chat.

the other (which i was referring to in the post above) still gets my money. i have bought $450 helmets, jerseys, saddles, and then as i said the smaller things like specific tools when i need them ASAP, and shifter cables and the like. i often go in and just have a chat to the owner about various things. i find it hard to comprehend that you dont see how one person would talk to another without the exchange of goods or money - you must live either a very lonely life, or spend shitloads of money on your friends.

as for saying im cheap, i say you're a wanker and i would postulate a hypocrite, too. when you are looking for a specific good or service, i would be willing to place money on the fact that you would ring around stores and suppliers of that good/service, to find where you can get it cheapest. well, it just so happens that for me, the place i can get my bike parts cheapest is from online stores.

[fatboy247]

I'm interestd as to what you selected in the poll. It's not being 'cheap', its 'saving money'.

I selected the second from the bottom, it is being cheap make no mistake about it! what do you do for a living, is there some way that i could bypass you and buy overseas just to save a buck? would it piss you right off that the locals in your community wanted to save 1 dollar rather than supporting a local business???

I am a mortgage broker and whilst my customer's don't actually pay me anything i don't have to worry about this problem, but i do worry about other small businesses in my area (including a few of my family's businesses) that are just barely surviving being kicked in the guts by people that would go online and buy a part $3 cheaper than they could buy it at the local shop and then have the gaul to expect the shop keeper to be all budy-budy with that person!

i know it's an argument that i won't win but i truely think that supporting locals is worth an extra couple of bucks, and hopefully that extra money that you have spent there might filter its way around town and help 5 other local businesses! anyway that's a just a dream but it would be nice if it worked that way!

[leitch]

i know it's an argument that i won't win but i truely think that supporting locals is worth an extra couple of bucks, and hopefully that extra money that you have spent there might filter its way around town and help 5 other local businesses! anyway that's a just a dream but it would be nice if it worked that way!

i totally agree. if it is infact just that extra couple of dollars, then im happy to go with my LBS. however, when i can buy a $400 pair of cranks (here) for less than half that, why would i buy here? i could buy TWO pairs of cranks from overseas for the price of one here.

[fatboy247]

as for saying im cheap, i say you're a wanker and i would postulate a hypocrite, too. when you are looking for a specific good or service, i would be willing to place money on the fact that you would ring around stores and suppliers of that good/service, to find where you can get it cheapest. well, it just so happens that for me, the place i can get my bike parts cheapest is from online stores.

wanker eh? yeah i gues that's fair, but who isn't (i know from your original post you came off sounding like one so i can handle that!)

Hypocrite? in some respects yes, in the matter at hand absolutely not!

I know you probably don't have to buy all your friends (maybee just the girls) and it would appear that you have altered your stance in saying that you have spent blah blah blah at so and so, but the reality is that it is being cheap! call me a hypocrite? well my friend i built a $10k bike last September buying only stuff from my LBS (Cyclingo in hobart who are fantastic guys) i didn't shop around or even contemplate buying os i know i could have saved money but it is the service i recieved that made it worth while spending the extra!


Now, once everyone is buying online and we don't have LBS's anymore where will you go to get you shifter cables and $450 helmets from eh??

Oh and in my original post i didn't mean to have a go at you it was just that what you stated in that post really pissed me off! FFS this is Australia we support the local smaller guys, that is what being Australian is about!!!


EDIT: sorry mate you were posting the above post at the same time as me, and yes i do agree with you to a point!

[Binaural]

I selected the second from the bottom, it is being cheap make no mistake about it! what do you do for a living, is there some way that i could bypass you and buy overseas just to save a buck? would it piss you right off that the locals in your community wanted to save 1 dollar rather than supporting a local business???

I am a mortgage broker and whilst my customer's don't actually pay me anything i don't have to worry about this problem, but i do worry about other small businesses in my area (including a few of my family's businesses) that are just barely surviving being kicked in the guts by people that would go online and buy a part $3 cheaper than they could buy it at the local shop and then have the gaul to expect the shop keeper to be all budy-budy with that person!

i know it's an argument that i won't win but i truely think that supporting locals is worth an extra couple of bucks, and hopefully that extra money that you have spent there might filter its way around town and help 5 other local businesses! anyway that's a just a dream but it would be nice if it worked that way!

The problem you seem to have in understanding why people buy OS is that it is not "$3", it can be up to 50% of the purchase price in Australian and better service to boot.

Another thing - since you're a mortgage broker, you should understand the concept of opportunity cost well. If I save a large sum of money buying OS, then I will have more money to spend on other things - likely Australian goods and services. Paying an inflated margin on goods for which 70-90% of the revenue goes OS anyway does not do a lot to support Australian industry as a whole.

[fatboy247]

The problem you seem to have in understanding why people buy OS is that it is not "$3", it can be up to 50% of the purchase price in Australian and better service to boot.

Another thing - since you're a mortgage broker, you should understand the concept of opportunity cost well. If I save a large sum of money buying OS, then I will have more money to spend on other things - likely Australian goods and services. Paying an inflated margin on goods for which 70-90% of the revenue goes OS anyway does not do a lot to support Australian industry as a whole.

as i said, it's an argument i WON"T win, but i do truely stand by it! good luck to you if you want to save money but i will always support the locals i know it may cost me more in the first place but hopefully that support will turn full circle and create business for me (that is how am econemy should work but sadly often doesn't)

i know you can save a lot by buying os, it may well be worth it but should we support it? that is the question!

[v1llage1d1ot]

well my friend i built a $10k bike last September buying only stuff from my LBS

You probably could have got it for about 5K if you'd bought your parts from an online shop.

Online stores are just so much cheaper when it comes to parts that it makes buying things from the LBS not really worth the hassle of waiting over a week for them to get the part in, charge you freight (which always ends up being more than you could have got it shipped yourself) and then have them not even appreciate the fact that you have made the effort to shop through them, and not go OS in the first place.

It always seems to be a big hassle for my LBS to get parts in for me. Sometimes they can't even get the parts I want. Bike shops will always make money from servicing and selling the comfort / recreational style bikes. If I can save a few hundred dollars, if not more of course I'm going to buy from OS.

[leitch]

wanker eh? yeah i gues that's fair, but who isn't (i know from your original post you came off sounding like one so i can handle that!)

Hypocrite? in some respects yes, in the matter at hand absolutely not!

I know you probably don't have to buy all your friends (maybee just the girls) and it would appear that you have altered your stance in saying that you have spent blah blah blah at so and so, but the reality is that it is being cheap! call me a hypocrite? well my friend i built a $10k bike last September buying only stuff from my LBS (Cyclingo in hobart who are fantastic guys) i didn't shop around or even contemplate buying os i know i could have saved money but it is the service i recieved that made it worth while spending the extra!


Now, once everyone is buying online and we don't have LBS's anymore where will you go to get you shifter cables and $450 helmets from eh??

Oh and in my original post i didn't mean to have a go at you it was just that what you stated in that post really pissed me off! FFS this is Australia we support the local smaller guys, that is what being Australian is about!!!


EDIT: sorry mate you were posting the above post at the same time as me, and yes i do agree with you to a point!
i was not necessarily referring to the buying of bicycle parts. say for example one of your small family businesses put out a call for tenders for someone to do some renovation work for you. you cant say that you would choose a more expensive quote from Joe Bloggs and Sons over WATPAC based solely on the fact that you were supporting the local smaller guys. as for that being "what being Australian is about" then you may as well strap me to a rocket and shoot me to the moon, because i obviously dont belong in this country. what a joke. the local bike industry doesnt support me or my wallet (when it comes to expensive high-end parts), so why should my wallet and i support them?

now. when it comes to complete bikes, of course i would buy locally. you would be stupid not to. i have 3 multiple-thousand dollar road bikes hanging up in my garage, all of which were bought locally. but buying complete is not what we are talking about here.

as for losing local bike shops, its not going to happen. this is what i posted earlier in the thread in response to the same argument:

now you might be sick of the whole idea around this thread, but i think everybody is sick of this silly response from bike industry representatives. even if the entire top-of-the-range market went to overseas vendors, it would not in any way result in bikeshops going out of business. its pretty well known that bike stores make their largest margins on lower end bikes and services - two things that you wouldnt buy from an overseas on line store. so while people may start buying their more expensive components off online vendors, bike shops may only make a 10% profit on these items, so the loss of business will have little to no effect.

for a start, bike shops are not going to disappear for the reasons outlined above. secondly, even if they did, forums like this are great for that exact purpose. so get over the whole "bikeshops will go out of business" wank, because its simply not true.

[Blackers]

I've bought some products from the LBS and been very happy with the service provided by them (cheers Ellis@Georges) and I'd really like to support them more, one of the problems I regularly encounter is the LBS doesn't carry in stock what I want to buy. Whilst it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that they can't carry everything for everyone (including the roadies) it would be nice if they were able to source it quickly. I have found that it's quicker and easier to get some of the higher end products i.e. X0 triggers and rear derailleur from an OS vendor, not only do they turn up quicker but they are generally 1/2-2/3 the price of the LBS. The problem as previously stated is the distributor who buys from the wholesaler who imports it in the first place and whilst it would be nice if everyone could buy direct from the wholesaler this is often impractical as most wholesalers do more than just bike parts. Someone posted saying they were able to buy locally made products cheaper OS than here, this happens with some products (wine is a good example) but I've only ever heard about and not seen it. Supporting the LBS is a nice theory but as is the case in most theoretical situations, the reality is somewhat different

[Kingswood]

FFS this is Australia we support the local smaller guys, that is what being Australian is about!!!


Hahahaha, is it Australian to just ignore the fact we are being over charged?

If we (the customers) keep paying twice as much for parts as we should, then wont the parts always stay at a higher price and nothing will be done to get better prices to the customers? I dont know why all the pressure is on the customer, somewhere along the line the prices are doubling, shouldn't the pressure be on whoever is causing that spike?

And as for being cheap, my definition of cheap is not putting in for fuel on shuttle days, or always leaving your wallet at home when your out to dinner with friends. I dont think it's cheap to buy the same products for hundreds of dollars less, it's sensible.

The only solution I have seen is for the punters to fork out twice as much as they need to so that the bike shops are happy. Surely there is another solution?

[NiK TyLeR]

i dont see the point of not going to your lbs i, the people are mostly nice and friendly and you get heaps of good advice

[mtb1611]

I have been riding mountain bikes for 18 years so I've tried quite a few shops. When I do buy something in Australia it is nearly always from Kerry at Phantom Cycles because he is a) cheap, b) knowledgable, c) responds to ALL requests promptly and d) doesn't talk shit.

Everything else I buy, I get from OS.

Likewise here. Kerry is the man. If he doesn't have it I get it from OS. I've been disappointed by the LBS (actually, numrous LBS's ) too many times to have any faith in them whatsoever. Although I must admit that ABC at Liverpool are very god in terms of knowledge, customer service and courtesy. Plus Shane builds very strong mtb wheels.

[takai]

Small stuff i normally get from the LBS, but big stuff i get from OS.

I mean, you really cant compare when the LBS wanted $1250 for Pike 409s and T7 want a miserly $600. Thats not just being over charged, thats being reamed.

That said, i buy a fair bit second hand.

[Trevor_S]

Because its not worth the companies time that make the products. They dont have the resources to distribute their products around the globe on top of everything else they have to do.

It's not their problem, so why should they bother ? They will still flog the product to an end user, be it via an LBS or an online e-tailer. That aside, I think a decent IT based logistical supply chain would make huge inroads into overcoming the issues you identify. ie you should be able to log, real time into say Shimano, order what you want and have it delivered in-store. It's up to the LBSs to come up with a solution, not the manufacturer. If it is more work for them they will definetly not be interested, if they can make more money more easily off the back of a logistical supply chain development, they WILL probably listen.

Do you know how much work it would be to contact every bike shop in the world and get confirmed numbers on how many products will be required each year? Then produce those numbers and supply them?

They MUST already know the numbers, they make the stuff. What they would not know is individual LBS requirements.

Thats a rediculous ammount of work on top of researching, developing, testing, marketing, producing new prodcuts, organising and running racing teams and everything else bike companies are doing now a days.
...
Support the local industry by trying to buy the majority of youre bike related product from your LBS. Thats all we ask of you...

It isn't going to happen, more and more people will buy online, the "problem" will get worse (MTB is not the only industry feeling this). Being pragmatic, you have a couple strategies you can adopt, 1. try and appeal to customers parochialism (the current strategy), this will eventually fail 2. try "join ém if you can't beat 'em approach" i.e go online, try to get volume discount from wholesalers to allow you to price more competitively. 3. rearrange the logistical supply chain to realistically reflect the shopping model of this century ie level playing field all over the globe. My money is on 3 to win out eventually, say 10 years or so ? in the mean time, much hand wringing, much pain and many convulsions.

What I save on buying a part from OS I am going to spend elsewhere, so I am supporting another business, if I have to pay over the money for a part, that's less money I have to put into another business.

I don't mind people who do either, what I loathe is those people that go to the LBS to try stuff on, then buy from OS, that's LOW !

[Trevor_S]

I am a mortgage broker and whilst my customer's don't actually pay me anything

Thats incredibly naive ? Of course they pay you, just not directly. On the whole, mortage brokers rely on peoples inherit laziness, poor fiscal education and naivety for their business. Much like most, if not all, commission based financial planners. Wait until customers realise that in Australia we are incredibly over serviced by mortgage brokers (look at the per capita statistics compared to other OECD countries) , realise they ARE paying through the nose, and can approach the wholesaler directly (eg the bank) for better bang for their buck and start ditching mortgage brokers.

By the way, isn't it the job of the broker to get the cheapest best deal for their client ? So why not sell the client a more expensive deal, like you seem to be advocating here with an LBS.

kicked in the guts by people that would go online and buy a part $3 cheaper than they could buy it at the local shop and then have the gaul to expect the shop keeper to be all budy-budy with that person!

If it's too hot, get out of the kitchen ! I assume you are exaggerating for melodramatic effect, most people will not worry about saving $3, however when it gets to $20 - $2000 then they start to wonder. It's THEIR money, their prerogative, if it's all too hard for the LBS, they can go flip burgers at Maccas... and yes, I own a small business owner and employ some 60 staff, so I am right there in the firing line.

i know it's an argument that i won't win

It's not about winning or losing, it's about business owners being pragmatic and for business to address the issues that affect their customers, price is a HUGE part of that for most customers. If you don't engage and connect with their customers and respect their wishes, you will loose them.

[DJman]

i ussualy like to buy from my lbs when i can because my mate nick mann works at greensborough cycles (top place for parts and service) and because i can get cheap stuff from nick i try to buy from there but when i can get it cheaper off ebay i do. but i also like to go into greensy so i can see corey's yeti 303 cause its a sweet bike

[rocky_mtn50]

I'd just like to resurrect this thread as I would like credit the company I originally complained about; they have rectified the problem I experienced with my forks (and I started the thread anyway).

Upon touching on the issue in this thread, I was contacted by Tyron from Groupe Sportif about my problem.

I am now happy to report that after sending my forks down to Groupe Sportif for the second time, my fork's issues were dealt with (though I have not as yet tested them) and I received a store credit for the first repair that was not carried out under warranty and I paid for.

I understand that although not in my case, warranty issues are not always clear and are open to subjection. The issue with my forks was also a problem that could only be replicated under riding conditions, and even now it is not physically visible internally.

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Groupe Sportif for carrying out the warranty owed to me, acknowledging my problem, and giving me a store credit for the repair I payed for. I am happy to say that now this issue has been resolved, I have regained most of my faith in warranty claims, and for the company Groupe Sportif.

[takai]

I would like to raise another issue, regarding distributors of products.

Recently a fairly high name bike company decided to use a new distributor, who are trying to charge almost DOUBLE the amount for the frames as the US price, and significantly more than the previous Aus distributor.

Poor form....

[BJ-]

I would like to raise another issue, regarding distributors of products.

Recently a fairly high name bike company decided to use a new distributor, who are trying to charge almost DOUBLE the amount for the frames as the US price, and significantly more than the previous Aus distributor.

Poor form....

Which companies are you talking about?

[Grip]

I would like to raise another issue, regarding distributors of products.

Recently a fairly high name bike company decided to use a new distributor, who are trying to charge almost DOUBLE the amount for the frames as the US price, and significantly more than the previous Aus distributor.

Poor form....


Ahhhhh. Popcorn... beer... and a comfy chair... now let the killing start.

[takai]

Transition is the frame manufacturer.

And lets put it this way. Its barely $100 more expensive for me to FLY to the US and buy a frame there and then FLY back, than it is for me to purchase it from the new distributor.

[BJ-]

Transition is the frame manufacturer.

And lets put it this way. Its barely $100 more expensive for me to FLY to the US and buy a frame there and then FLY back, than it is for me to purchase it from the new distributor.

Economy or buisness class? :p

[takai]

Economy......... but still, somewhat ridiculous.

[W.bat]

Hey can I ask who are the good internet bike suppliers. I know torpedo 7 and jensons. Who else?

[W.bat]

Also interesting how people have voted on this. Amazing how much comes in from os. Really puts the emphasis on repairs/service at the lbs.

[bdeightyone]

Its a complete disgrace for the high end bikes. I would raher spend my money flying to Canada/USA to buy a bike and have a short holiday and not really have to pay much more than the retail prices here, especially with the exchange rates at the moment. This includes factoring in conversions, visa, tax and duties.

One example: i could purchase a SC VP Free from Vancouver for a marginally reduced price as i would not bother the shop with servicing/warranty, ride Whistler for a week, and fly home and pay about the same as buying the same bike retail here! Warranty is not really an issue as an argument either as i could probably ship anything back over and get it back just as quick, plus it takes some serious abuse to crack a quality frame in anycase. The prices charged by retailers and distributors mark ups are beyond a joke in Oz. If the bikes shops OS can sell for their prices and cover their overheads why cant they do that here with a small increase for shipping etc etc?

[mtb1611]

One of the things that always bugged me (and the very factor that prompted me to embark on my first foray into internet purchasing via Cambria Cycles in 1998) was the old "oh it'll take us a while to get it in" garbage. I was in the market for XT Rapidfire and V-brakes and 3 LBS's told me it'd take a fortnight to get them in. Ever the sceptic, I rang Shimano who told me they had ample stocks, and the shops were feeding me porkies. It was a Monday. I got off the phone, onto the net, ordered the parts for roughly half the price I'd been quoted by the LBS's, and had them on the bike by Saturday morning.

[placebo]

Hey can I ask who are the good internet bike suppliers. I know torpedo 7 and jensons. Who else?

Google Chainreaction Cycles, they're in Ireland. Free postage on orders over $600 aud, massive range. Order Sunday night, you've usually got it shipped to your work address by Thursday morning. Sweet.

Your LBS in Sydney or Wollongong generally can't get stuff from Melbourne or Newcastle faster than this. On many same-year model items they are up to 50% cheaper than buying here. An added bonus is that as a northern hemisphere retailer their end of season clothing sales match our seasons down here.

Will e-tailers such as these be the end of the LBS? I don't think so. Over the last three years I've spent a bit with them, at least two orders a year of $1k+ at CRC, but I'd easily have spent four times as much at the LBS. I've bought at least one bike each year from them, plus assorted parts and clothing, etc.

If your local bike shop isn't somewhere you'd go first for the majority of your needs,if they aren't willing to accomodate your desires, needs, or just haggle and chat, then they aren't running their business well, and it's no fault but their own if they can't make a dollar.

[placebo]

The prices charged by retailers and distributors mark ups are beyond a joke in Oz. If the bikes shops OS can sell for their prices and cover their overheads why cant they do that here with a small increase for shipping etc etc?

They all have significant room to move. When you're in a shop having a chat and stock comes in, grab an invoice and read it while they're busy unpacking. You'll find mark ups usually range between 50 and 100%. Get them to move on stuff you want to buy. It's common sense, you wouldn't hesitate to do it buying a car, you'd shop around. Basically, all you are doing is asking them to price match.

Don't waste their time on a set of brake pads or crap like that. If you want a bike, sit down, do some research, add it all up retail vs. online, and then go in and work out a deal. I'll stress again - don't waste their time, have the money, and when it's done, cough it up. Everyone will have to compromise somewhat, but they will have a large sale (at a lesser margin), and you will pretty much have what you want. The shop hasn't wasted time on you as a clueless tyre kicker, hasn't had the stock on the floor tying up liquidity, and just has to make the calls to get the parts.

[floody]

They all have significant room to move. When you're in a shop having a chat and stock comes in, grab an invoice and read it while they're busy unpacking. You'll find mark ups usually range between 50 and 100%. Get them to move on stuff you want to buy. It's common sense, you wouldn't hesitate to do it buying a car, you'd shop around. Basically, all you are doing is asking them to price match.

Yeah I dunno how much bike retail experience you have but 50% mark up does not mean 50% clear profit. By the time you knock 10-15% off the top of a lot of stuff, dependent on time its in the shop etc, you can be effectively breaking even or losing money as the seller. Different when you're talking single items costing many thousands of dollars of course.

Fact is I've had an E13 guide shipped to Australia, through customs and to my door from Seattle in 4 days; at a total, US retail+shipping/tax/phonecall to states inclusive price which was equal to the local WHOLESALE price (and that is before shipping to the dealer and GST) and it would have taken as long to get here from the local distributor.
When you can buy things at retail, and ship them across the world, and STILL get them cheaper than local retail, someone somewhere in the chain is being greedy.

[W.bat]

Is someone actually being greedy or are there just two extra sets of hand that the product goes through. ...and the OS sellers may have big purchasing power and can get a better price. When I hear you can buy from the web cheaper than the retailer can but from the wholesaler something doesn't add up.

[Fred Nurk]

Is someone actually being greedy or are there just two extra sets of hand that the product goes through. ...and the OS sellers may have big purchasing power and can get a better price. When I hear you can buy from the web cheaper than the retailer can but from the wholesaler something doesn't add up.

Theres a whole heap more reasons on why you can get things way cheaper going overseas than just greedy middle men. Theres supplier control so that the importers / manufacturers can keep an eye on the warranty issues for purchases. There are exchange rates to factor in. There is also the fact that since the Australian market is so much smaller than the US, people need to charge more to make money off the same item, as they don't get the quantities of sales available elsewhere.

For me though, while loyalty is important, and since my LBS owner is the same guy you see turning up at club rides and hitting the training rides most weeks, I believe that its worth supporting the business, otherwise no one here would be able to get the range of bikes that we have. However, there are limits, and sometimes the price difference between me buying parts from LBS and online is enough for me to not purchase the item unless I buy online. I simply can't afford to pay full retail rates for everything I buy, I'd not be riding if LBS was my only option. I still try and throw sales at the LBS whenever possible, but a 50% difference in some items means that sometimes I shop online.

I'm no fan of Torpedo7 however.

[anthonyma]

...GST...

This is an often overlooked part of what we pay here in Australia. GST adds a flat 10%, and that's on top of the customs / import taxes that may have been paid by the importer. These charges add to the price we pay at the LBS compared to buying direct from OS, and the LBS has no control over them.

[arpit]

The middlemen are not greedy. It's just business.

If I were an importer, I'd see that I had a small but dedicated customer base. These people would buy from me irrespective of my prices. They would ignore price considerations. They would ignore common sense. They would empty their wallets at my doorstep at the expense of their families, simply so they could proudly proclaim to their riding buddies that they were taking the moral highground... that they were the true Australians.

I could raise my prices without a large drop in demand from this group. It would be in my interests to raise my prices massively and milk this group. After all, the customers who shop around would leave me as soon as I raised prices to cover my costs and my risk - they wouldn't be profitable.

Thus, it would be the inelastic demand which would keep my markup (and prices) high. It would be the 20 people who voted for the last option. Congratulations.

[arpit]

The middlemen are not greedy. It's just business.

If I were an importer, I'd see that I had a small but dedicated customer base. These people would buy from me irrespective of my prices. They would ignore price considerations. They would ignore common sense. They would empty their wallets at my doorstep at the expense of their families, simply so they could proudly proclaim to their riding buddies that they were taking the moral highground... that they were the true Australians.

I could raise my prices without a large drop in demand from this group. It would be in my interests to raise my prices massively and milk this group. After all, the customers who shop around would leave me as soon as I raised prices to cover my costs and my risk - they wouldn't be profitable.

Thus, it would be the inelastic demand which would keep my markup (and prices) high. It would be the 20 people who voted for the last option. Congratulations.


When, then, should you purchase from online shops? It's easy to figure out.

All you have to do is give your time a value.

Is the price at the online store
+
Time waiting for the product delivery
+
Time x Risk of ordering the wrong product at the online store

Greater than

Price at local store
+
Time waiting for product at the local store
+
Time x Risk of ordering the wrong product at the local store

In many instances, no it isn't. In those cases, buy from the online store.
I bought an 8 speed cassette from CRC (online shop) - I knew exactly what I wanted.

I bought a full set of bearings from my bike from Bike addiction (local shop).
Here, The time spent finding a supplier would be considerably more if I bought online instead of locally. Here, the risk of me getting the wrong parts was markedly less at the LBS. The time I would have to spend rectifying an error, should the risk eventuate, would be markedly less at the local store too.

Analysis becomes more complicated, but necessarily so, when you consider the long time. Multiple purchases at a LBS will decrease
a. Price
b. Waiting time
c. Risk, and time required to rectify materializations of it.

You need to factor this in.



Still, I recognise that my analysis is oversimplistic. It ignores satisfaction. A better analysis would see whether:

the price at the online store
+
Time waiting for the product delivery
+
Time x Risk of ordering the wrong product at the online store
+
Satisfaction from buying at the online store


Greater than

Price at local store
+
Time waiting for product at the local store
+
Time x Risk of ordering the wrong product at the local store
+
Satisfaction from buying from the local store.



Those 20 people obviously achieve so musch satisfaction from the local store that they buy from it exclusively.

Does this legitimise the actions of the 20? Economically, yes. However, I'm not an economist. I do believe these 20 play an instrumental role in keeping the prices of high end bicycle products high. I do believe this frequently unwarranted. This is because the 'satisfaction' in many instances arises from nothing more substantial than a misplaced desire to be 'holier than thou'.

In many instances it doesn't. There was the gentleman who wanted to support the business of his friend. I recognise that this gives rise to legitimate satisfaction.

Nevertheless, I maintain that the holier-than-thou satisfaction is illigitimate.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/img/content/season10/1002.gif

[takai]

arpit makes a very logical argument, and without sexual innuendo as well.

In the situation regarding the Transition frames, what stinks all the more is we all know how much Endo/Frontier used to bring them into the country for. And im sure Tony/Petri were able to make a living from doing that.

For example, the Bottlerocket retails in the US for $1150. Over here Endo/Frontier sold them RRP for $1699, a reasonable markup, but not exorbitant, and certainly justifiable with shipping, customs and tax. Revolution on the other hand want $2350 for exactly the same thing, an extra $600 on top for a frame which up until June we used to get for $1700.....

[triples]

For those of you guys who think that it is the greedy importer or LBS charging too much then think again. Most items (bike industry or not) imported into australia are going through an extra set of hands (sometimes even two or three). When the product lands in the country there is an import tax, then the importer adds there markup and then gst. The product then has to be dispatched to the shops (australia has one of the most expensive postage/freight industrys in the world). Once the shop gets it they have to cover the cost they got charged for freight, add there mark up, and then add gst again.
AND its not just the bike industry, alot of product in general is cheaper over seas. Its just the way it is.
Next time you order online to save yourself a few dollars think about this, what are you doing for the economy here? the more money that stays in the country the better for the country.

I can understand people who buy offshore to save them selves big big dollars on a groupe set, but I can get my head around those who will order a smaller product to save themselves $10.

How many times have you gone to your LBS and they have given you some priceless advice or they have quickly adjusted your bike free of charge, or have given you a free tube? and then you order offshore to save yourself a few bucks?

Have a think about it guys, this is our country and lets keep it that way!

[dunk]

Next time you order online to save yourself a few dollars think about this, what are you doing for the economy here? the more money that stays in the country the better for the country.

So it's OK for the importer to send his money overseas, but not me a consumer?:confused:

[bdeightyone]

A $10 saving on a one off purchase is not really much i agree, but when you buy say 10 items a year and the savings vary between $10 - $30 per item, that saving adds up to hundred of dollars.

Perhaps the Government should look at reducing or eliminating the GST on recreational items... (like they go in British Columbia, Canada) there is an argument there for the obesity epademic, less carbon emissions, less cars on the street if people ride to work etc etc. If more people got off their ass and rode a bike the health system would be better off also in the scheme of things.

[triples]

So it's OK for the importer to send his money overseas, but not me a consumer?:confused:

When it comes to importing I don't think we have much choice. It would be great if alot more goods were produced in this country, but in reality this ain't going to happen due to the cheap labour in other countrys.
I would love to see products get mass produced here, but its gonna be hard to get people to work for a few cents an hour.

[floody]

This is an often overlooked part of what we pay here in Australia. GST adds a flat 10%, and that's on top of the customs / import taxes that may have been paid by the importer. These charges add to the price we pay at the LBS compared to buying direct from OS, and the LBS has no control over them.

Mate, 10% GST and the import duties do not add 200% to the price.

[giant dh]

I myself tend to look after number 1 (me)

With regards to only saving 3 bucks arguement, it does make a difference 3 bucks here 3 bucks there not only to do with your bike, but say lunch at work (bit of topic i know , make your lunch instead of buying) might mean you get them forks/wheels/ or that holiday to canada!!!

for example you spend 5-10bucks a day on food that you have at home = $1000 bucks a year sily things like that make a difference.

Bike parts are the same , and as to the supporting the Aussie companys!! and being Un Australian!! ,

Example Blundstonme boots was it?? decided to move o/s ,I'm sure they have made enough profit over the years? to not make as much now to save the jobs they provide in their local community?? (pah)

Like they say business is business i look after mine.

Maybe the Lbs's in Vic could get together and maybe start something like CRC and NSW do the same and so on.

They then could offer lower prices and better delivery times ??? and better purchasing power ,New to the country so still figuring out where's best.
But by going on recent purchase 2 tyres!!, not too difficult a request? Lbs on way home lost order (manager took my request????) So will be going o/s still i'm afraid.

Sorry to be Un Australian

[dunk]

Mate, 10% GST and the import duties do not add 200% to the price.

Exactly, and the importer claims the GST paid back as a credit on the GST collected when the goods are sold (depending on his GST reporting method)

[anthonyma]

Mate, 10% GST and the import duties do not add 200% to the price.

Wasn't suggesting they do, just highlighting these charges as I think it goes part way to explaining why the price at the LBS is higher.

It is not the whole story, but assuming the manufacturer charges the same price per item, and there are the same number of hands that the product goes through (granted this is probably an invalid assumption), it will still be cheaper to purchase from an overseas retailer in many cases due to the import duties and GST not having to be paid.

In other words, all else being equal, if way pay taxes when purchasing locally that we don't pay when purchasing from overseas, the final price will be higher locally.

This is of course purely hypothetical, and I don't know the markups involved nor how many hands a product passes through in individual instances, but unfortunately import duty and GST add to the price we pay here which makes an importers/retailers task harder when it comes to price. Beyond that, I'm sure that additional (unnecessary?) links in the supply chain, profit-taking etc play a part in some cases too, along with differing prices from manufacturers based upon market size, competition between importers etc.

For the record, I'm not in the "industry" and I purchase based upon a number of factors and propping up a business simply because I "should" support the local industry isn't one of them.

[petri]

Ahhhhh. Popcorn... beer... and a comfy chair... now let the killing start.

:D:D:D.... draw your swords!
10 paces gents....

[takai]

Hm, just to pick petri for a second.
The Canfield Balance is on the US website at $1799 here (http://www.canfieldbrothers.com/Balance%20Page.html), and from what he has said here (http://www.farkin.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1033451#post1033451) is under $2000 with shock. A bloody reasonable price given the US$ price on the frame.

Compare that to the prices i gave for the Transition gear above.....

[petri]

Hm, just to pick petri for a second.
The Canfield Balance is on the US website at $1799 here (http://www.canfieldbrothers.com/Balance%20Page.html), and from what he has said here (http://www.farkin.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1033451#post1033451) is under $2000 with shock. A bloody reasonable price given the US$ price on the frame.

Compare that to the prices i gave for the Transition gear above.....

The aussie dollar is good right now and we want to keep the pricing reasonable so i recon under $2000 is achievable... at least for now. The new Transition prices are definitely 'up there' but everyone is entitled to charge what they want so i guess it's good luck to them.:D

[RCOH]

I was talking to a friend the other day, who happens to own a bike shop that specialises in "Commuting" bikes (folders, fixies, hybrids, mixtes, townies, comfort bikes etc). He says that increasingly people come into his shop & say "hi, I just bought this BB off the internet, can you please bit it on my bike, I need it by yesterday". Turns out the BB is the wrong size, or wrong thread or whatever so he offers to sell & fit them one of the right size but when they hear the price they are "Are you nuts! I can sell this one on ebay & buy a new one for 1/2 that price, then I will come here & get you to fit it".

This kind of scenario (and it is happening more & more often) really irks him & I can kind of see his point. On one hand he is getting business, albeit just fitting a BB, but at the same time he invests time into the customer, time that could have been spent on paying jobs, only to be e-backhanded.

I think an LBS's role is changing with the introduction of the availability of cheaper products online, and that role is becoming more of a support base to customers rather than a centre for major purchases. But I thibk it is a 2-way street, customers have to realise that just because something is cheap oversea it always make it good value, especially when they fucked the LBS around (trying things on for size before ordering online, haggling til death, price matching to the extreme etc) then when something does go wrong (and it will) you can't expect the LBS to drop everything & cater for.

in summary, LBS & online ordering can co-exist peacefully, just don't be a fuckwit.

[RaID]

I was talking to a friend the other day, who happens to own a bike shop that specialises in "Commuting" bikes (folders, fixies, hybrids, mixtes, townies, comfort bikes etc). He says that increasingly people come into his shop & say "hi, I just bought this BB off the internet, can you please bit it on my bike, I need it by yesterday". Turns out the BB is the wrong size, or wrong thread or whatever so he offers to sell & fit them one of the right size but when they hear the price they are "Are you nuts! I can sell this one on ebay & buy a new one for 1/2 that price, then I will come here & get you to fit it".



I can see this being annoying for the LBS, but really i would believe if its anything like the computer industry most of the money would be made from the service side of things. Hence LBS should be happy to charge retail labour rates to fit the online bought BB.

[petri]

I can see this being annoying for the LBS, but really i would believe if its anything like the computer industry most of the money would be made from the service side of things. Hence LBS should be happy to charge retail labour rates to fit the online bought BB.

Yup. I used to get upset at lads coming in to the shop with online purchased stuff but after a couple of years of it worked out that the lads i was nice to became good repeat customers. I wouldn't make a mint from them but it was still consistent business....
Labor and servicing is really how to survive in a small lbc....and usually it is only just surviving.

[Norco_250]

Yer the guy at my LBS said they just cant compete with the internet and it is so true i got a FSA headset for $100 at my LBS and my mate got a brand new one exactly the same off here for $40.

[top_dog]

Petri congratulations for doing those Canfields at a fair price. Good on ya. I think that the other importers could learn from what you're doing.

[l +Jarrod+ l]

yeah mostly bike shop for something that i need good, or just online if it is a replacement

[petri]

Petri congratulations for doing those Canfields at a fair price. Good on ya. I think that the other importers could learn from what you're doing.


Cheers mate, I really appreciate hearing comments like that. I'll do my best to keep them a fair price, the lads at Canfield seem pretty stoked also so it should be a good relationship! I've just ordered the first frames..... mmmm

[cashride]

I do both online and lbs. But the lbs is a bit hit and miss depending on whos working. I think if i had a good lbs, who knew what they were talking about id stick with them.

[Steve_N]

I used to purchase nearly everything at the lbs but then I had kids :p... To fund my addiction, I had to find ways to save money where I could so OS/Online is where I shop mostly now. I still go to the lbs for smaller parts or if I need it relatively quickly or I need some maintenance done (like having wheels trued etc) though. That said I do have a decent rapport going with the lbs guys so am conscious to keep that up...

I'd love to support my lbs exclusively but it's simply a case of economics for me....

[DarrenHunt]

I used to purchase nearly everything at the lbs but then I had kids :p... To fund my addiction, I had to find ways to save money where I could so OS/Online is where I shop mostly now. I still go to the lbs for smaller parts or if I need it relatively quickly or I need some maintenance done (like having wheels trued etc) though. That said I do have a decent rapport going with the lbs guys so am conscious to keep that up...

I'd love to support my lbs exclusively but it's simply a case of economics for me....


Its the same for me, minus the kids, i like to buy at the lbs, but sometimes it just doesnt make sense. For all the little things and servicing i definately stick to them, and for when i bought a full bike, but for upgrades its just not economical.

[bitterbro]

The LBS is tops for things you need right now, and smaller secessities such as bottle cage holders, tires tubes and the like. However if purchasing items over say, $200, it's hard to beat the value of the online shop. Cranks, breaks, seats and seatposts, stems and handlebars i have all been purchased, their prices haven't been rivalled at my LBS. GREAT value

[Bck mrkt mob]

i think everyone should support the lbs as they have the knowledge and tools to do things right and a good bike shop will look after you in price and warranty. online sites are stuffing up the industry some of you might not care but we all have to start somewere and not everyone knows everything about bikes.

[t]

i think everyone should support the lbs as they have the knowledge and tools to do things right and a good bike shop will look after you in price and warranty. online sites are stuffing up the industry some of you might not care but we all have to start somewere and not everyone knows everything about bikes.

The Argument/debate on this topic moved past the points you're making about two years ago. The internet isn't going anywhere so the LBS needs to evolve or die.

The bike industry was already stuffed up, mostly people just didn't know any better.

[ashes_mtb]

i think everyone should support the lbs as they have the knowledge and tools to do things right and a good bike shop will look after you in price and warranty. online sites are stuffing up the industry some of you might not care but we all have to start somewere and not everyone knows everything about bikes.

I used to think this way as well. Always thought it was good to support small business even if it meant paying a bit extra.

I started mtbing in 93 and bought bikes pretty every 12-18 months for years. The bike store I always bought from were pretty good, gave me a good deal and were always reasonably nice to deal with.

Unfortunately they sold up and the place went downhill over night. Experience at various shops since has been littered with bullshit advice and ordinary work. Some of the service jobs I've seen done on non-serious cyclist mates bikes have been criminal...

The few good bits of service (yes, I'm sure there not all bad) have been from shops too far from home to be my regular. I've resorted to doing all my own work (probably a good thing to be honest) and buying online for the convenience, choice and savings.

I always worry about what'll happen if I have a problem but it fortunately hasn't happened yet (touch wood).