Why isn’t steel more widely used?

[Archi]

Was thinking of this today, with steel/chromoly being used more and more by riders on jump /street hardtails, and pretty much across all levels of bmx (minus racing), why isn’t it more widely used across mountain biking and frame construction, mainly DH/Freeride bikes.

As far as I know its only used on a small selection of cross country bikes and in dirt jump/street/4x market, but has only been used on a few dh bikes over the years (Avanti d8/ Balfa come to mind)

Surely with all the technological advancements with over the past few years in bmx and street bikes, showing steel can be made into very light, strong and stiff frames (with great ride characteristics) why hasn’t it made more of an impact on frame construction, particularly on downhill bikes and the like?

[ozzy osbourne]

I think because it is much heavier than alluminum. On DH bike you need like a thick frame because it looks bad if its small. So if they used cromoly the frame would be much heavier but inderstrucktable.

[Nightprowler]

Yeah im with “ozzy osbourne” you take for example a bmx frame is just a few poles therefore they can afford to make it out of steel without it being to heavy, then you look at something like a dual suspension frame a lot more material goes into it, you think that if all that was steel imagine how heavy it would be.:)

[skinner]

What about the brooklyns, they are steel...kinda heavy but not over the top. (so i have heard)

[jaseh]

I would say it comes down to what the market wants, everyone thinks that steel is heavy and alloy is light.
The usual comment when I show some one a steel framed XC or flat bar road bike is " thats got to be heavy being steel" when 9 times out of 10 its the same or lighter than a similar spec alloy bike. The best part is when they take them for a demo ride back to back and they can't believe how harsh alloy is compared to steel.
I'm a huge fan of steel HT frames (no need to use it on DS) and it would be good to see more. I think it is making a comeback ATM as you are seeing more and more steel framed bikes.
as for DH bikes, you don't need to make them out of steel, you would want something that is as stiff and as strong as possible, plus 99.9% of DH bike are duallies so you don't need the compliant ride of steel.

[n plus one]

Because steel is 'real' and nowdays everyone wants an 'unreal' new bike.....





Budda bing, budda boom





Alternatively,it may be related to the fact that you can make a light aluminium frame cheap as s##t, but to do the same with steel takes high quality (expensive) materials. That, and the f#####g weight weenies.....

I tell ya, single speeders and niner riders will be the saviours of us all......

[No Skid Marks]

Alluminium is alot more profitable for the manufacturers.
Steel can be made with thin walled fat tubes but why would you want something large,fat and long between your legs(don't answer that).
A Cromo DH rig is still more compliant(depending on build/design)and will out last most alluminium bikes easilly. Look how many D8s are still kicking,and if not it's mainly from poor maintanence/bearing/pivot design.
This can open a huge debate of trivial facts but it's mainly cost effective due to materials and manufacturing skills and proccesses.

[Archi]

so is it purely down to manufacturer/material costs and profitability? i wouldve thought it costs more to create all the funky aluminium designs there are now (hydroforming,forging,monocoque,oversized/custom tubing etc) than 'simple' butted steel tubes.

I think because it is much heavier than alluminum. On DH bike you need like a thick frame because it looks bad if its small. So if they used cromoly the frame would be much heavier but inderstrucktable.

Steel can be made with thin walled fat tubes

steel will obviously be slightly heavier for the same dimensions as an aluminium tube, but why make big tubes?, just use (semi)regular sized tubing like bmx companies do, rather than ugly-oversized tubes that every manufacturer seems to be using these days:D

for me personally i much rather the look of smaller tubing(ie. nicolai ufo st)
than massive tubes/monocoque things. just imagine an ironhorse sunday with a simple, steel thin butted front section .......mmm:)

[n plus one]

so is it purely down to manufacturer/material costs and profitability? i wouldve thought it costs more to create all the funky aluminium designs there are now (hydroforming,forging,monocoque,oversized/custom tubing etc) than 'simple' butted steel tubes.







steel will obviously be slightly heavier for the same dimensions as an aluminium tube, but why make big tubes?, just use (semi)regular sized tubing like bmx companies do, rather than ugly-oversized tubes that every manufacturer seems to be using these days:D

for me personally i much rather the look of smaller tubing(ie. nicolai ufo st)
than massive tubes/monocoque things. just imagine an ironhorse sunday with a simple, steel thin butted front section .......mmm:)

Aluminium has limited fatigue life, all alu frames will fail eventually. They are made with large diameter tubes to reduce flex and therebye extend their life span. You can make a nice flexy alu frame to feel v similar to steel but it will fail quickly due to flex induced fatigue. You can also reduce flex via thicker walls in smaller diameter tubing but it will need more material, therefore suffering a weight penalty, relative to a beer can frame.

[Sethius]

dark cycles scarab comes to mind for me? that thing is sooo fine...

http://www.darkcycles.com/scarab.htm

http://www.darkcycles.com/gallery_pics/scarab_built_5%20copy.jpg

[bazza]

look at the drop outs on a dragon team. so nice. sosooos nice. steel can be made so minimal it rules. but its all about $$$$'s at the end of the day.

[n plus one]

Better yet - Paragon machine works drop outs:

[No Skid Marks]

dark cycles scarab comes to mind for me? that thing is sooo fine...

http://www.darkcycles.com/scarab.htm

http://www.darkcycles.com/gallery_pics/scarab_built_5%20copy.jpg

Unfortunatly it has a high BB,and really offers nothing over a Brooklyn I can see,it has a shorter shock,and I don't think it's really any lighter.Pitty cause they're a great looking little bike.

Alluminium builds a nice stiff ride but the longevity(genrally speaking)isn't up to scratch. If all the effort that's been put into manufacturing Alluminium frames had been put into steel(talking MTB here)we'd probably have the same weight frames with better ride characteristics that would last at least twice as long.
The Avanti D8 is a great example most can relate to. Similer design to a Giant DH but in a few years the numbers of Giants for sale will fade,but D8s will stay much the same,and concidering there's probably been 50 times more Giants sold,oh forget it,it seemed like a good comparison but the numbers make it impossible to guage.
Steel is real.
Carbon the future.

[---Matt---]

There's a fair few not-so-truths in this thread so far...

To start with, lets refine this to 4130 CrMo instead of steel. We also need to say what kind of Aluminium we're talking about too. The common materials are 7005 and 6061.

OK, first... CrMo is actually cheaper per foot to purchase in tube form than Aluminium. Also, aluminium comes in a far wider range of tubing sizes than CrMo.
Second, aluminium is harder to weld than CrMo.
Third, CrMo has a better strength to weight ratio than 6061 aluminium and only slightly worse than 7005. This means that no, steel bikes are not necessarily any heavier than aluminium ones however this is dependant on what kind of aluminium is used.
One of the main reasons you see more aluminium frames around is because aluminium is actually far easier to CNC than CrMo due to the fact that CrMo is a harder material. This makes manufacturing parts and then constructing bikes a lot easier as it's more like putting together a jigsaw and is a cheaper method of construction.
Also, the size of the tubing on a bike is not determined by how it looks. You can get a better strength/weight ratio (to a certain extent) by increasing the diameter of the tube, hence why manufacturers use the "uglier" larger diameter tubing.

As for the original question, basically, aluminium, while more expensive to purcahse the materials and harder to weld, it's far easier to machine and therefore parts can be manufactured more efficiently and allows for a cheaper overall process.

---Matt---

EDIT: if you feel like doing some learning have a look here (http://www.ihpva.org/com/PracticalInnovations/materials.html)

[xy9ine]

Unfortunatly it has a high BB,and really offers nothing over a Brooklyn I can see,it has a shorter shock,and I don't think it's really any lighter.Pitty cause they're a great looking little bike.


i came very close to buying one, but was dissuaded by the geometry (high bb & steep ha), and went for the pdc instead. they are pretty cool frames though; lighter and lots cheaper than a brooklyn. less proprietary bits as well. they're currently testing a new version that weighs 10lbs with a coil shock. sounds interesting.

[ovadahill]

Want to see a steel Demo 9?... check out the Specialized segment on the ROAM DVD.
But I agree that Matt has the right answers.

[jaseh]

Better yet - Paragon machine works drop outs:
Redline are using those on this years Monocog 29er, much better than tugs.

[free_rid3r]

its because all the weenie men who like to spend thousands of dollars on making their bikes maybe 500grams lighter would have to spend even more to make their bikes the same weight as if it was made with an alloy frame. plus weight isnt an issue when you already weigh over 100kgs and ride dh haha sucks to be a xc rider

[Some Guy]

Alternatively,it may be related to the fact that you can make a light aluminium frame cheap as s##t, but to do the same with steel takes high quality (expensive) materials. That, and the f#####g weight weenies.....

I'm a weight weenie, and my new frame is steel. http://www.thylacinecycles.com/wordpress/?p=42 (caution: XC content).

It's a bit heavier than a scandium or carbon frame would have been (200-300gr), but it won't crack the first time you drop it like my friend's Scott did and the ride is so much more forgiving than my aluminium frame. Steel is real alright.

[Matt H]

its because all the weenie men who like to spend thousands of dollars on making their bikes maybe 500grams lighter would have to spend even more to make their bikes the same weight as if it was made with an alloy frame. plus weight isnt an issue when you already weigh over 100kgs and ride dh haha sucks to be a xc rider

What the hell are you even talking about? :confused:

[No Skid Marks]

Ggrrrrrrrrr Alloy is a mix of metals,not short for Alluminium.Cromo is an alloy.
Sorry pet hate on the loose.

[n plus one]

Redline are using those on this years Monocog 29er, much better than tugs.

Yeah, they're nice drop outs - v similar to the single niner in the Dirt Works cattle dog (brand slips my mind at the mo' - KHS maybe?), bet neither of them are true Paragons though.

Personally I can't see the point in using steel for a DS - all you're doing is losing steel's advantages while emphasizing it's disadvantages.

I guess you could make an asthetic argument at most.....

[jaseh]

bet neither of them are true Paragons though.
Damn good copy if they aren't, I had your close up and a close up of the monocogs side by side and couldn't see a difference. they are a nice set up all the same.

[Rik]

Sorry pet hate on the loose.Good work, that gives me the shits too... it could be an alloy of cast iron for all I know but that doesn't make it any good.

OK, first... CrMo is actually cheaper per foot to purchase in tube form than Aluminium. Also, aluminium comes in a far wider range of tubing sizes than CrMo.That'd be for your bog stock straight guage stuff, yeah?
For steel to be light and zippy or whatever you'd be wanting some nice butted stuff and maybe a fancy alloy too.
At a guess I'd imagine it's cheaper to butt/form aluminium than it is steel, especially with hydroforming getting a decent usable tube (ie, butted with flared ends for welding) from aluminium must be pretty damn quick and cheap these days.

[dazz]

Cromo is an alloy.

So is 7005 & 6061... :p

I see your point though, I think it may have stemmed from company’s making a big point about their aluminium’s being an alloy as a marketing tool to differentiate the metal from your standard soft malleable aluminium that everyone identified with???

[---Matt---]

That'd be for your bog stock straight gauge stuff, yeah?
For steel to be light and zippy or whatever you'd be wanting some nice butted stuff and maybe a fancy alloy too.
At a guess I'd imagine it's cheaper to butt/form aluminium than it is steel, especially with hydroforming getting a decent usable tube (ie, butted with flared ends for welding) from aluminium must be pretty damn quick and cheap these days.

Yeah, you're right Rik, that's based on my own experience when purchasing the straight gauge CrMo and the equivalent sized 6061 Aluminium. The stuff we used was straight gauge 4130 T6 CrMo in 0.049", 0.035" and 5mm plate.
And yeah, I'd assume it's harder to make butted CrMo and therefore also more expensive than butted aluminium. Does anyone have any idea what the cost of hydroforming is? I'd be quite keen to find out.
I'd also be keen to find out if manufacturer's could make steel frames a bit lighter than they currently do, using more fancy tubing, seeing as though my frame, made predominantly from 0.035" tubing weighed in at 2.65kg and hasn't shown any signs of weakness so far (touch wood ;)).

---Matt---

[Some Guy]

I'd also be keen to find out if manufacturer's could make steel frames a bit lighter than they currently do, using more fancy tubing, seeing as though my frame, made predominantly from 0.035" tubing weighed in at 2.65kg and hasn't shown any signs of weakness so far (touch wood ;)).

From my experiance with having a frame made from 'fancy' steel rather than the more common cheaper varieties you can certinaly can. You're average XC hardtail made from 853 tubing weighs 1.8-2kg, and we've dropped that by 20% without sacrificing strength by using more advanced tubing.

[jaseh]

There also the new 953 reynolds tubing that is supposed to be lighter and stronger than 853.

[top_dog]

I had my D8 for a while and rode it hard. Eventually it snapped. But it was the aluminium linkage that broke in the end.

I have heard of 05 DH comps cracking. My D8 was a 2000 model, so that illustrates the fatigue issue that plagues aluminium frames. That said who keeps a DH bike for more than 2 years anyway.

[---Matt---]

That said who keeps a DH bike for more than 2 years anyway.

Anyone who owns a D8 :p

I had mine for 4 years before selling it! ('02 to '06)

---Matt---

[peanut]

There also the new 953 reynolds tubing that is supposed to be lighter and stronger than 853.

I read the same thing, but i don't know if they have all tube sizes readily avaliable yet. I saw a photo of a BAUM road frame made out of it, 980 grams i think it was.

[n plus one]

Oh yeah, you can get 953 in stainless too........

Fo' shizzle....

[brisneyland]

Modern DH designs are quite complicated and don't always lend themselves to a double-diamond type construction. It's waaaaay harder to get metal (i.e strength) where you want it using steel. That's why aluminium is more commonly used.

[blue gum warrior]

Alluminium is alot more profitable for the manufacturers.
Steel can be made with thin walled fat tubes but why would you want something large,fat and long between your legs(don't answer that).
A Cromo DH rig is still more compliant(depending on build/design)and will out last most alluminium bikes easilly. Look how many D8s are still kicking,and if not it's mainly from poor maintanence/bearing/pivot design.
This can open a huge debate of trivial facts but it's mainly cost effective due to materials and manufacturing skills and proccesses.

absolutely dead right, 99% of companies will go for the bottom line that is why steel/ cro moly etc gets pushed aside for aluminium, its much more profitable.

[hyperkona]

That said who keeps a DH bike for more than 2 years anyway.

um.... me n most of my mates? mind you most of us have motgages.... why fix/replace if its not broke?