Help with rear wheel axle spacers - Now with additional LBS troubles....

[takai]

When i built my new bike i was wary of using a QR with horizontal dropouts, as ive been there before, and it wasnt fun. So i got a 10mm axle kit and built that into the Shimano hub.

Now, my issue is with the spacers that you put on either side of the axle between the cone nut and the lock nut.

If i dont have a spacer on the drive side then the wheel sits too far over that side of the dropouts, and the chain rubs on the frame in the highest gear.
If i have a spacer on the drive side and not on the disc side then the disc fouls on the caliper bracket.
If i have spacers on both sides then the tyre sits too far over to the drive side and fouls on the rear chain stay occasionally.

http://gallery2.plebeians.net/d/8718-2/20070527_Custom_Bike_Bits-0024.JPG
See here the wheel sits to the drive side too much.
http://gallery2.plebeians.net/d/8715-2/20070527_Custom_Bike_Bits-0023.JPG
Here the axle has a spacer on the drive side, still fairly little clearance, let alone without a spacer.
http://gallery2.plebeians.net/d/8712-2/20070527_Custom_Bike_Bits-0022.JPG
Here you can see the spacer on the brake side and the clearance back to the adaptor, again not very much, and if the spacer is removed then it fouls on the caliper adaptor.

Does anyone have suggestions on what to do with this one? Its stumping me good and proper.

[takai]

Ok, the solution to this one is that it helps to check whether the dishing of the wheel is correct or not. In my case it was dished towards the drive side, and hence giving the off center location.

[themunt]

Can you experiment with slimmer spacers..?

But Takai is right. If the hub is centred with both spacers on and the rim is off centre it needs to be redished. A trip to the LBS!
OR.. If you are keen to redish it: Loosen the drive side spokes one at a time by a 1/4 of a turn. ONCE. Then tighten the NON-drive side by a 1/4 of a turn, ONCE. Not enough? Do it again. You can redish it by a few mm's this way safely. It helps alot if the wheel is true before you start.

Hope this helps...

[leitch]

specialised p-series frame?

[takai]

Yeah, tis a P2 frame.
http://gallery2.plebeians.net/d/8628-2/20070521_Specialized_P2_Build-0006.JPG

I could have tried redishing it myself, but i have a munted spoke on that wheel anyway, so ill get the LBS to do it.

[leitch]

yeah - the P-series frame have a 6mm offset rear triangle that means you run them with a dishless wheel - that would have been stuffing you up (with the tyre rubbing)

[takai]

Ah, ok. Now i understand.

Should give the LBS a ring in the morning to confirm that they know what frame its for.

Thanks for that.

[takai]

Ok, when i rang the LBS they had already done the wheel, so off i trundled to pick it up and took my frame with me in order to confirm the fitment.

Now the LBS is adamant that the P-series has symmetrical dropouts, and the local Specialized dealer thinks the same too. And instead they think that the dropouts are worn and therefore the brake side is deeper than the drive side, and what i should do is just run the brake side further out in the dropout than the drive side.
They blame all this on that little silver spacer in there which is necessary to stop the caliper fouling on the hub.

Im calling shennanigans, as after about 30s of work with vernier calipers and rulers i have established that the brake side dropout isnt any deeper than the drive side dropout, and the rear triangles are the same length, and that nothing seems to be skewed, and that when the wheel is put in the place which they reckon it shoudl be that the wheel tracks 15* out of center.

Now, how in hell do i communicate this to the bike shop? They are adamant that they trued and dished the wheel correctly, and indeed on my fiancees Giant it seems to be the case, and the local Specialized dealer reckons that the 2005 P bikes had symmetrical dropouts.

EDIT: Interesting, i have spotted the Specialized archive on their website (http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?arc=2005&spid=21454) , where under the P.2 bike it specifically says "6mm offset for 0 dish rear wheel". Ive printed it off so it wont dissapear and im thinking ill take it back in to them.

Ideas? Opinions? Another bike shop?

[takai]

Ok, just snapped a few photos:

Wheel is quite off center here, and fouling against the frame.
http://gallery2.plebeians.net/d/8729-2/20070527_Custom_Bike_Bits-0051.JPG

Using a rough jig you can see that its parallel to the frame
http://gallery2.plebeians.net/d/8738-2/20070527_Custom_Bike_Bits-0054.JPG

So i put the tyre centered between the rear triangles (i.e. about 10mm out from home on the brake side). And you can quite easily see that its skewed out by 10* or so.
http://gallery2.plebeians.net/d/8741-2/20070527_Custom_Bike_Bits-0055.JPG

[L.P.]

that specialized dealer is surely wrong, im sure that they are 6mm offset rear triangles. looks it in one of those last photos too, and its proven by as you say, the wheel fitting in your wifes giant, and not your P. park make a frame aligning gauge, if theyve got one of them they can check. dont try to find an acronym for the frame aligning gauge.... :p

[pearcey5]

The print out should do the job at the LBS, otherwise try another shop. which one were you trying? Please tell me it wasn't Standish Cycles, they love taking people for a run... These (http://www.berniejonescycles.com.au/)guys were helpful with my old bike before I left the state, but then again, I was a whole lot more ignorant back then...

[FoxRidersCo]

I stand corrected...

[takai]

Nah, JTs only advised on this one.

Anyway, ill chuck all the gear back in the car soon and go down to see what they ahve to say....

[t]

I was looking at the bike upside down in the first pic thinking the yolk looked familiar. If you'd said it was a P frame someone would have told you what was going on.

All the centerfold P frames have Asymetric rear triangels.

If you told the LBS what frame it was before the job was done they have no excuse except lazieness and ignorance, but that's probably not the exact words to use when convaying that mesage to them. If you told them afterwards... well then it's your fault.

[takai]

Nah, i told them beforehand that it had to be 0 dished, but i think they took that as relative to the hub, because its certainly centered on the hub.

Is there any standard as to dishing wheels, like + or - 1 etc, or is it done by mm?

[t]

"zero dish" is one of those buzz phrases that means different things to diferent people.

The standard thing is to build/true the wheel so the rim is centered on the hub. Wheel truing stands are set up to make that job very easy.

If you know how many mm to dish a wheel across from centered it can be done that way pretty easily, other wise it's probably easiest to do it in the frame.

[tu plang]

in terms of specialized frames though, zero dish would be refering to the rim being centred over the flanges (hence the offset), no? i mean otherwise... every standard wheel is built with the rim centred between the ends of the axle.

[takai]

Yeah, the job sheet (which was written by one of the showroom guys) merely says "0 dish".
JTs who are the Specialized shop interpret the dishing as relative to the hub, as it is on many Specialized bikes. Wheras the other store (not getting into a slaggin sess here) interprets it as dished relative to the axle.

They want to have no part of it, and are still maintaining that the frame is warped. So im going to do the best i can with a spoke tool, and probably get it properly dished again on Thursday.

[t]

They want to have no part of it, and are still maintaining that the frame is warped.

time for Plan C: find a new LBS

[takai]

Yeah, im putting that $20 firmly in the pile of other similar amounts of money which have been spent trying to find decent bike shops over the years.

Tis a pity, as they are usually decent and really quite convenient. Ohwell, looks like my knee/shin pads which im waiting on (still) will be the last thing i get from them.

[tu plang]

It amazes me how reluctant bike shops can be to fix something like that up. I mean whoevers fault it was they have nothing to gain by making life hard for you... ah well..

[udi]

Yeah, your LBS (and specialized dealer) are both morons.

'03 - '07 P.Series frames (and perhaps even older ones) run assymetrical rear triangles for zero-dish wheels. Often the frame will even have this written on it. It's a great idea because it means even spoke lengths, even spoke tensions, and therefore stronger and longer lasting wheels and builds.

The rim is generally centred between the hub flanges, or the best thing to do is leave the frame with the shop that is building it so they can centre it in there.

[takai]

Ok, ive just left the entire bike with another shop, fingers crossed that this time ill get it back fixed completely.
This time ive gone with the shop which has continiously been reccomended to me over the last few months that ive been riding in SA. Just a pity that its not overly local to me :(

[takai]

HUZZAH

I picked up the bike from the other bike shop today, and its perfect. Lovely dished wheel, they even gave it a once over and a bit of a service too.

From now on i highly reccomend Mitcham Cycles. Best to go before school is out though, kiddies on DH bikes and STPs everywhere at 4pm.